NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    Tokoloshe2 wrote: »
    One minor point I haven't seen mentioned yet: There is an inconsistency between Mr White saying of his wife "She left long ago" and the murder of Madeline's mother in NTTD.

    White having remarried is a plausible explanation, but not a very good one.

    The explaination is that White wanted to keep that for himself because Bond is his enemy. You don’t throw away such personal and painful stuff to someone you don’t even know. The same applies to the Madeleine “divorce” bit… she didn’t want to recall that painful day Safin destroyed her life, perhaps with another assassin…
  • Posts: 4,602
    "Dunno if anyone mentioned it yet, but Q also revealed he is"

    I missed that (saw it 2 hours ago), where did that come up?
  • Posts: 250
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    FourDot wrote: »
    Tokoloshe2 wrote: »
    One minor point I haven't seen mentioned yet: There is an inconsistency between Mr White saying of his wife "She left long ago" and the murder of Madeline's mother in NTTD.

    White having remarried is a plausible explanation, but not a very good one.

    Madeleine also mentions "after the divorce" when they're at L'Americain so they've really whiffed on that despite retaining the detail about the bleach. Whoops.

    On the plus side, one of the greatest villains of all time, Feathers McGraw, now appears in a Bond film.

    On a different note, re: Kleinman's titles
    the use of Britannia as a cornerstone of the imagery is really genius - not only as a throwback to the OHMSS titles and foreshadowing of Bond's icon on Q's map, but the fact that she is an emblem of the Royal Navy's victories... by whose hand Bond dies.

    I'd say that's compliments of not having a clear plan or outline from the beginning and sort of retroactively tweaking things and making stuff up as you go - the details quickly get muddled and contradicted. To me, it seems like an easy thing to catch and memorize for later scripts, though, but I'm no screenwriter myself.

    The idea of continuity bible is quite foreign to EON I guess but maybe now is the time rather than relying on P&W to remember their own, extensively rewritten work.

    See also: Bond's relatively cordial relationship with Mr. White in Spectre, given that this is the man who extorted Vesper and drove her to her death.
  • Posts: 4,602
    I think there are comparisons with the new Star Wars movies as they seem not to have a long term plan re plot. I think this has really affected the DC era quite badly. Imagine either a set of great standalones or a continuous series (drafted from day 1) that made sense. We got the worst of all Worlds which is a real shame IMHO
  • JohnBarryJohnBarry Dublin
    edited September 2021 Posts: 34
    I've seen it twice now. The first time I really didn't know how to feel about his death. I did go in with an open mind. After the second time, I think I've concluded that I dislike it.

    I don't necessarily have a problem with Craig's Bond dying if it was done right. But I feel his death was done in a very cruel way. He's clearly a person who's had to deal with a huge amount of emotional turmoil from the death of Vesper, the death of M, and then spending five years believing he was betrayed by Madeleine.

    So instead of giving him that second chance with Madeleine after their reconciliation, after he discovers he has a daughter, and with that peaceful life away from espionage (which he initially thought was going to get with Vesper) is just around the corner, they kill him off.

    Both Blofeld and Safin wanted to destroy Bond's life with Madeleine in different ways, and they both succeeded. If Bond's most personal and important mission was to find happiness after Vesper's death, he was foiled by the villains of NTTD. It is an incredibly cruel end for the character and it can be a very downbeat ending for some fans, especially those who have gone on that emotional journey with the character since Casino Royale.

    I think a small tweak to the film whereby everyone else believed Bond to be dead but he is then seen with Madeleine and his daughter would have changed my overall opinion of the movie considerably and ended the movie and Craig's tenure on a high note rather than a total downer.
  • edited September 2021 Posts: 4,602
    Thats a very fair point. Many fans pointed to SF and the fact that Bond failed that mission. His arc has been one of frustration, heart break, sadness and darkness. The character deseved some "light" and this movie deprived him of that.
    Back in 2017, I started a thread where fans suggested DCs final scene. I don't think one fan suggested what we actually got. Everyone wanted something with more hope and optimism.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    JohnBarry wrote: »
    I've seen it twice now. The first time I really didn't know how to feel about his death. I did go in with an open mind. After the second time, I think I've concluded that I dislike it.

    I don't necessarily have a problem with Craig's Bond dying if it was done right. But I feel his death was done in a very cruel way. He's clearly a person who's had to deal with a huge amount of emotional turmoil from the death of Vesper, the death of M, and then spending five years believing he was betrayed by Madeleine.

    So instead of giving him that second chance with Madeleine after their reconciliation, after he discovers he has a daughter, and with that a peaceful life away from espionage (which he initially thought was going to get with Vesper) is just around the corner, they kill him off.

    Both Blofeld and Safin wanted to destroy Bond's life with Madeleine in different ways, and they both succeeded. If Bond's most personal and important mission was to find happiness after Vesper's death, he was foiled by the villains of NTTD. It is an incredibly cruel end for the character and it can be a very downbeat ending for some fans, especially those who have gone on that emotional journey with the character since Casino Royale.

    I think a small tweak to the film whereby everyone else believed Bond to be dead but he is then seen with Madeleine and his daughter would have changed my overall opinion of the movie considerably and ended the movie and Craig's tenure on a high note rather than a total downer.

    Good points.

    I love the idea exactly because of this. Bond is cursed. He's an hero, but he's also an assassin. He kills people. He's an angel of death and death is his curse. No matter how hard he tries, there's no happy ending. Never will be. Like in the books.
  • DCisaredDCisared Liverpool
    Posts: 1,329
    Bond wrote: »
    Dunno if anyone mentioned it yet, but Q also revealed he is
    homosexual

    Seems like they just threw that in there because "we're hip! we're modern"!

    Or that people who are gay actually exist mate. Nothing hip or modern about it.
  • JohnBarryJohnBarry Dublin
    Posts: 34
    matt_u wrote: »
    Good points.

    I love the idea exactly because of this. Bond is cursed. He's an hero, but he's also an assassin. He kills people. He's an angel of death and death is his curse. No matter how hard he tries, there's no happy ending. Never will be. Like in the books.

    I don't necessarily disagree with you but I think we differ perhaps on the desire to give Bond, our hero for 5 movies, a happy ending. This is one of the reasons the ending will be so divisive for fans.
  • RainyRainy Skyfall
    Posts: 40
    I do wonder what general audiences will think of it.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    edited September 2021 Posts: 1,885
    Tokoloshe2 wrote: »
    One minor point I haven't seen mentioned yet: There is an inconsistency between Mr White saying of his wife "She left long ago" and the murder of Madeline's mother in NTTD.

    White having remarried is a plausible explanation, but not a very good one.

    Also why did Mr. White have an issue with Blofeld's killing of 'women and children', yet he seemed to be doing that in his early days from what we've learned from No Time To Die?
    FourDot wrote: »

    On a different note, re: Kleinman's titles
    the use of Britannia as a cornerstone of the imagery is really genius - not only as a throwback to the OHMSS titles and foreshadowing of Bond's icon on Q's map, but the fact that she is an emblem of the Royal Navy's victories... by whose hand Bond dies.
    Yes I was looking up the imagery from the titles such as Britannia and Greek iconography. The latter has to do with the name of the project in the film iirc. And the symbols at the end like you said. What I don't get is why they made such a big deal about them with Q literally spelling it out along the lines of "he's Psi, the trident." Psi has to do with the psyche and the soul, which can be applied to Bond, but it isn't as good as being given Nomi's Omega symbol. This represents 'the great end', conclusion or closure. The foreshadowing would've been a great touch before his death.
  • Posts: 250
    matt_u wrote: »
    JohnBarry wrote: »
    I've seen it twice now. The first time I really didn't know how to feel about his death. I did go in with an open mind. After the second time, I think I've concluded that I dislike it.

    I don't necessarily have a problem with Craig's Bond dying if it was done right. But I feel his death was done in a very cruel way. He's clearly a person who's had to deal with a huge amount of emotional turmoil from the death of Vesper, the death of M, and then spending five years believing he was betrayed by Madeleine.

    So instead of giving him that second chance with Madeleine after their reconciliation, after he discovers he has a daughter, and with that a peaceful life away from espionage (which he initially thought was going to get with Vesper) is just around the corner, they kill him off.

    Both Blofeld and Safin wanted to destroy Bond's life with Madeleine in different ways, and they both succeeded. If Bond's most personal and important mission was to find happiness after Vesper's death, he was foiled by the villains of NTTD. It is an incredibly cruel end for the character and it can be a very downbeat ending for some fans, especially those who have gone on that emotional journey with the character since Casino Royale.

    I think a small tweak to the film whereby everyone else believed Bond to be dead but he is then seen with Madeleine and his daughter would have changed my overall opinion of the movie considerably and ended the movie and Craig's tenure on a high note rather than a total downer.

    Good points.

    I love the idea exactly because of this. Bond is cursed. He's an hero, but he's also an assassin. He kills people. He's an angel of death and death is his curse. No matter how hard he tries, there's no happy ending. Never will be. Like in the books.

    This is very much it - both of the film's opening sequences show that there is no possibility for a normal life for killers and to be honest Bond getting any kind of domestic bliss would have been an abject betrayal of Fleming's creation. Or indeed any kind of happy ending that isn't transient - it's why what happened to Tracy had to happen. This film just happens to invert the idea.
  • Posts: 4,602
    We have had sad endings in the past but either they showed last minute upbeat scenes (SF, CR) or a chance to return for revenge (OHMSS). This is darker than either of those options. It's just sinking in now what they have done. I would love to chat to the writers re: of all the options available, they chose this route.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited September 2021 Posts: 13,353
    I can't wait for Michael, Barbara, Daniel, Cary and even Danny Boyle to be asked about Bond dying. I'd be very interested in their responses.

    After Casino Royale I had so much hope for this era of Bond, it could have been so exciting and fantastic. Instead, Craig's Bond really is one who you wouldn't want to be and suffers so much throughout the films.

    They even toyed us with the yellow rubber dinghy in this film.

    You don't kill off Felix or Bond in my opinion and neither death had an emotional impact or added anything to the film's story. It played very much like a Brosnan Bond film and a few tweaks with Bond saving the day with the Navy at the end would have perhaps made for a very decent and re watchable film.

    A lot of my audience stayed until the end thinking there would be a post credit scene and were surprised when there wasn't. When some saw 'James Bond Will Return' appear on the screen they said 'at least we'll find out how he got off of that bloody island'. I only wish. Talking to some people afterwards they didn't believe he actually died. That may be because there are only another literally 3 minutes after the death before the film ends.

    I wonder about the other rumoured endings and report of the wedding scene which was filmed on a beach with M present.

    Today, I am a sad James Bond fan.
  • edited September 2021 Posts: 320
    matt_u wrote: »
    JohnBarry wrote: »
    I've seen it twice now. The first time I really didn't know how to feel about his death. I did go in with an open mind. After the second time, I think I've concluded that I dislike it.

    I don't necessarily have a problem with Craig's Bond dying if it was done right. But I feel his death was done in a very cruel way. He's clearly a person who's had to deal with a huge amount of emotional turmoil from the death of Vesper, the death of M, and then spending five years believing he was betrayed by Madeleine.

    So instead of giving him that second chance with Madeleine after their reconciliation, after he discovers he has a daughter, and with that a peaceful life away from espionage (which he initially thought was going to get with Vesper) is just around the corner, they kill him off.

    Both Blofeld and Safin wanted to destroy Bond's life with Madeleine in different ways, and they both succeeded. If Bond's most personal and important mission was to find happiness after Vesper's death, he was foiled by the villains of NTTD. It is an incredibly cruel end for the character and it can be a very downbeat ending for some fans, especially those who have gone on that emotional journey with the character since Casino Royale.

    I think a small tweak to the film whereby everyone else believed Bond to be dead but he is then seen with Madeleine and his daughter would have changed my overall opinion of the movie considerably and ended the movie and Craig's tenure on a high note rather than a total downer.

    Good points.

    I love the idea exactly because of this. Bond is cursed. He's an hero, but he's also an assassin. He kills people. He's an angel of death and death is his curse. No matter how hard he tries, there's no happy ending. Never will be. Like in the books.

    Yeah but they could have had him kill the bad guy, save the world and kiss the girl. Bond doesn't have to die. Craig's Bond could have had a happy ending and no-one would be saying "this ending sucks, I wish he'd died!"

    Lol

    I can't see any moral or creative justification to kill off James Bond and then proclaim at the end of the film "James Bond will return."

    Sorry, I don't get it. Maybe Eon have some genius masterplan and it will make sense come Bond 26. Then again maybe not.

  • Posts: 4,602
    If you think about iconic deaths in the movies, its really unusual to die alone. From Logan to Rogue One, from Tracy to Hans Solo, from Spock to Kirk. From Stark to ? They had someone to react with, to talk to, to comfort them etc .
  • Zarozzor wrote: »
    Question for those who have seen the film:

    I have seen a few people saying that NTTD will be like OHMSS. Not because of all the references to it, but because OHMSS was disliked by many for years and is now regarded as one of the best in the series.

    Do you think this will be the case?

    Yes. Except I also think in this case because we've had an extra 50 years of cinema and of Bond, there will be stronger support out of the gate as well.
    Very interesting. I’m going to go into it with an open mind even though I’m already disappointed by the ending. Hopefully I enjoy it and the film makes it high on my list.
  • edited September 2021 Posts: 207
    I’m sure it’s already been mentioned but the way he fades into the light during the gun barrel is foreshadowing the ending.

    EDIT: I didn’t mean to double post. Can a mod move this into the post above?
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,574

    AgentM72 wrote: »
    Zarozzor wrote: »
    Question for those who have seen the film:

    I have seen a few people saying that NTTD will be like OHMSS. Not because of all the references to it, but because OHMSS was disliked by many for years and is now regarded as one of the best in the series.

    Do you think this will be the case?

    100% yes.

    I'm not even sure it will go through a period where it's considered "disliked" except amongst the most hardcore fans who really, really just reject the central emotional idea of the ending.
    I agree with this. And even the ending will be forgiven in time by hard core fans, especially when the next actor is cast.
    Everyone who has asked me if I liked the film I’ve told them I loved 99% of it. And that’s the truth. I didn’t like the final pay off but in time I will be much more forgiving until eventually it becomes immaterial.
    Seeing it again on Wednesday with the wife. I know she will love it
  • JohnBarryJohnBarry Dublin
    edited September 2021 Posts: 34
    matt_u wrote: »

    This is very much it - both of the film's opening sequences show that there is no possibility for a normal life for killers and to be honest Bond getting any kind of domestic bliss would have been an abject betrayal of Fleming's creation. Or indeed any kind of happy ending that isn't transient - it's why what happened to Tracy had to happen. This film just happens to invert the idea.

    I would argue that making Bond and Blofeld step brothers could be described as an abject betrayal of Fleming's creation. Bond isn't just any killer, he's been our hero for 5 movies. We've cheered him on, celebrated his successes and grieved his losses. As someone who's followed his journey, I didn't want that journey to end with his death when a more satisfying conclusion for that character was almost within reach.

    Wow, this surely is a very polarizing ending.
  • DCisaredDCisared Liverpool
    Posts: 1,329
    bondywondy wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    JohnBarry wrote: »
    I've seen it twice now. The first time I really didn't know how to feel about his death. I did go in with an open mind. After the second time, I think I've concluded that I dislike it.

    I don't necessarily have a problem with Craig's Bond dying if it was done right. But I feel his death was done in a very cruel way. He's clearly a person who's had to deal with a huge amount of emotional turmoil from the death of Vesper, the death of M, and then spending five years believing he was betrayed by Madeleine.

    So instead of giving him that second chance with Madeleine after their reconciliation, after he discovers he has a daughter, and with that a peaceful life away from espionage (which he initially thought was going to get with Vesper) is just around the corner, they kill him off.

    Both Blofeld and Safin wanted to destroy Bond's life with Madeleine in different ways, and they both succeeded. If Bond's most personal and important mission was to find happiness after Vesper's death, he was foiled by the villains of NTTD. It is an incredibly cruel end for the character and it can be a very downbeat ending for some fans, especially those who have gone on that emotional journey with the character since Casino Royale.

    I think a small tweak to the film whereby everyone else believed Bond to be dead but he is then seen with Madeleine and his daughter would have changed my overall opinion of the movie considerably and ended the movie and Craig's tenure on a high note rather than a total downer.

    Good points.

    I love the idea exactly because of this. Bond is cursed. He's an hero, but he's also an assassin. He kills people. He's an angel of death and death is his curse. No matter how hard he tries, there's no happy ending. Never will be. Like in the books.

    Yeah but they could have had him kill the bad guy, save the world and kiss the girl. Bond doesn't have to die. Craig's Bond could have had a happy ending and no-one would be saying "this ending sucks, I wish he'd died!"

    Lol

    I can't see any moral or creative justification to kill off James Bond and then proclaim at the end of the film "James Bond will return."

    Sorry, I don't get it. Maybe Eon have some genius masterplan and it will make sense come Bond 26. Then again maybe not.

    Pretty much how I feel. Don't see the point in it when all is said and done. I'm still gutted.
  • I'm surprised by the amount of questioning of, how does EON bring Bond back for the 26th movie. From the start of this franchise they've played fast and loose and taken major creative liberties with the films. Why? Because they can and we all turn up for it. From recasting characters, recycling actors, plot points ignored, EON have done it all. I'm not a fan of killing Bond but it's done and was done so Because EON could and just like that, like nothing happened Bond will be back.
  • edited September 2021 Posts: 320
    I think the Bond producers should retire. Killing Bond was a horrible, despicable idea, and disrespectful to the late Ian Fleming. What about basic morality ? Barbara Broccoli is bequeathed the Bond franchise and she kills off Bond (played by an actor that said he'd only return for the money).

    Kinda grubby, perhaps?
  • edited September 2021 Posts: 12
    o
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,102
    bondywondy wrote: »
    I think the Bond producers should retire. Killing Bond was a horrible, despicable idea, and disrespectful to the late Ian Fleming. What about basic morality ? Barbara Broccoli is bequeathed the Bond franchise and she kills off Bond (played by an actor that said he'd only return for the money).

    Kinda grubby, perhaps?

    Why is it immoral? That’s what I’m trying to understand. It’s just a fictional character.

    KaKn.gif

    If you treat Bond like a religion, what’s the point? Might as well just stick to the Fleming novels and call everything else heresy.
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 575
    Rainy wrote: »
    I do wonder what general audiences will think of it.

    Two friends who are casual watchers have already told me they're confused at how this works for the future.
  • "Do you know what time it is? Time to die." - Nomi

    Iconic.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,102
    It would sound more like a cheat IMO. Basically the whole film would have to be recalibrated from top to bottom for that kind of ending to work.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,705
    Absolutely loved it. My favorite thing about it? It's a loud and proud sequel to the last movie. It's like EON said: "Whats that, you say? Didn't like Spectre? Go - - - - yourself! Cuckoo!" :))
  • Posts: 2,400
    Zarozzor wrote: »
    I’m sure it’s already been mentioned but the way he fades into the light during the gun barrel is foreshadowing the ending.

    I feel it partly is, but in hindsight I feel it's also foreshadowing of
    how the PTS is about Madeleine, not Bond
    .
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