Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • cwl007cwl007 England
    Posts: 611
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Controversial opinion: Moore is at his most Bondian in TMWTGG, in spite of the many, many, many flaws of the movie.
    Totally agree. I regret in a way that this interpretation of Bond, in this not so great movie, did not end up in the following installments. There is a sense of sarcasm, of emotional distancing, that makes him an interesting evolution of the character. In a way, I think it could have brought the TSWLM film closer to Christopher Wood's novelization, with a Bond much more reminiscent of his literary counterpart, albeit in a story very far from Fleming's canon.

    Yep. Love Rog in the film. Though I appreciate his stance on it and why he wanted to lose the "edge" in subsequent films.

    Yes, he does have an edge in TSWLM. I always find it strange why it's so well known that Moore was uneasy about kicking locque off the cliff in FYEO. Yet that is no worse than the tie kill in Spy or shooting Stromberg several times as he is sitting AND dying.
    Just a thought.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited May 2021 Posts: 6,759
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Well, there's "like" and there's "like". I'm sure @GoldenGun likes all the Bond films too. ;-)

    Exactly :)

    Of course I like all the Bond films. As I've said on several occasions, I'd gladly rewatch my least favourite Bond film any day of the week.

    I was merely saying something along the lines of: I'd rate my least favourite Moore entry an 8 out of 10, while I'd rate my least favourite Connery/Brosnan/Craig entry a 6 or a 7 (which are still way above average).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2021 Posts: 14,861
    cwl007 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Controversial opinion: Moore is at his most Bondian in TMWTGG, in spite of the many, many, many flaws of the movie.
    Totally agree. I regret in a way that this interpretation of Bond, in this not so great movie, did not end up in the following installments. There is a sense of sarcasm, of emotional distancing, that makes him an interesting evolution of the character. In a way, I think it could have brought the TSWLM film closer to Christopher Wood's novelization, with a Bond much more reminiscent of his literary counterpart, albeit in a story very far from Fleming's canon.

    Yep. Love Rog in the film. Though I appreciate his stance on it and why he wanted to lose the "edge" in subsequent films.

    Yes, he does have an edge in TSWLM. I always find it strange why it's so well known that Moore was uneasy about kicking locque off the cliff in FYEO. Yet that is no worse than the tie kill in Spy or shooting Stromberg several times as he is sitting AND dying.
    Just a thought.

    Yes he's definitely got more cold killer moments in the Lewis Gilbert films than he has in the Glen films, even despite the cliff kick. Stromberg doesn't even get a witticism to soften the kill: he just shoots him in cold blood. Loads!
    It's hard to imagine the Roger of AVTAK doing that. I can't even remember if he intentionally kills anyone apart from Zorin (very much a fight for survival rather than cold blood) after the credits, does he?

    I can only think of three (the helicopter pilots and Zorin) in the entire movie. His lowest body count? :)
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    cwl007 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Controversial opinion: Moore is at his most Bondian in TMWTGG, in spite of the many, many, many flaws of the movie.
    Totally agree. I regret in a way that this interpretation of Bond, in this not so great movie, did not end up in the following installments. There is a sense of sarcasm, of emotional distancing, that makes him an interesting evolution of the character. In a way, I think it could have brought the TSWLM film closer to Christopher Wood's novelization, with a Bond much more reminiscent of his literary counterpart, albeit in a story very far from Fleming's canon.

    Yep. Love Rog in the film. Though I appreciate his stance on it and why he wanted to lose the "edge" in subsequent films.

    Yes, he does have an edge in TSWLM. I always find it strange why it's so well known that Moore was uneasy about kicking locque off the cliff in FYEO. Yet that is no worse than the tie kill in Spy or shooting Stromberg several times as he is sitting AND dying.
    Just a thought.

    Agreed entirely. When he kills Sandor it is genuinely one of Bond's coldest kills. It is such a ruthless moment they resurrect the move for Daniel Craig to use in QoS.

    Moore in TMWTGG and TSWLM has got an edge equal to Connery's portrayal imo.
  • Posts: 1,469
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I don't know if this is controversial but I don't really consider any of Timothy Dalton's films to be proper Bond films and struggle with their identity within the franchise? I think for me it's the seemingly Americanised tone that I compare to things like Columbo.
    I respect your opinion; mine is that TLD is a good Bond adventure, and I really liked Dalton in it. LTK is not a favorite of mine, and I do agree that some of the Americanized elements make it drag, especially Professor Joe Butcher. The main reason why LTK doesn't thrill me is that Bond is involved in a "personal" plot and not one to destabilize the world in major ways, which I think he's best in. I know LTK is similar to TMWTGG because of the mano a mano theme, but I like that film a lot more. Robert Davi did act well in this, and yes Sanchez' drug cartel is international, but I think other Bond villains were bigger threats. Parts of LTK seem to copy Miami Vice, which had been hot then. I fault the story and not Dalton, who I wish had done a third film. Also, Carey Lowell as Bond's partner did her part and was hot.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,009
    cwl007 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Controversial opinion: Moore is at his most Bondian in TMWTGG, in spite of the many, many, many flaws of the movie.
    Totally agree. I regret in a way that this interpretation of Bond, in this not so great movie, did not end up in the following installments. There is a sense of sarcasm, of emotional distancing, that makes him an interesting evolution of the character. In a way, I think it could have brought the TSWLM film closer to Christopher Wood's novelization, with a Bond much more reminiscent of his literary counterpart, albeit in a story very far from Fleming's canon.

    Yep. Love Rog in the film. Though I appreciate his stance on it and why he wanted to lose the "edge" in subsequent films.

    Yes, he does have an edge in TSWLM. I always find it strange why it's so well known that Moore was uneasy about kicking locque off the cliff in FYEO. Yet that is no worse than the tie kill in Spy or shooting Stromberg several times as he is sitting AND dying.
    Just a thought.

    The Stromberg kill does feel quite mean and nasty considering the kind of film TSWLM is, tonally. Mind you, Jaws does vampire bite a couple of people to death, too....
    cwl007 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Controversial opinion: Moore is at his most Bondian in TMWTGG, in spite of the many, many, many flaws of the movie.
    Totally agree. I regret in a way that this interpretation of Bond, in this not so great movie, did not end up in the following installments. There is a sense of sarcasm, of emotional distancing, that makes him an interesting evolution of the character. In a way, I think it could have brought the TSWLM film closer to Christopher Wood's novelization, with a Bond much more reminiscent of his literary counterpart, albeit in a story very far from Fleming's canon.

    Yep. Love Rog in the film. Though I appreciate his stance on it and why he wanted to lose the "edge" in subsequent films.

    Yes, he does have an edge in TSWLM. I always find it strange why it's so well known that Moore was uneasy about kicking locque off the cliff in FYEO. Yet that is no worse than the tie kill in Spy or shooting Stromberg several times as he is sitting AND dying.
    Just a thought.

    Agreed entirely. When he kills Sandor it is genuinely one of Bond's coldest kills. It is such a ruthless moment they resurrect the move for Daniel Craig to use in QoS.

    Moore in TMWTGG and TSWLM has got an edge equal to Connery's portrayal imo.

    I think "speak now or forever hold your piece" might be one of my favourite Moore moments.
  • Posts: 1,879
    I like all Bond films too. But having ones we like more than others is just natural. I get a giddy pleasure out of my favorites so many years later after first seeing them and still try to muster up that feel for those I don't have as much enthusiasm for. But as long as the lead character is James Bond is what counts most for me.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Controversial opinion: Moore is at his most Bondian in TMWTGG, in spite of the many, many, many flaws of the movie.

    I like this performance a lot too as it really stands out. He's a bit more Connery-like here whereas his performances in most of the other 6 are pretty interchangeable. I especially like that smile he gives after M encourages him to seek out Scaramanga. It's less like Roger Moore playing Bond as himself and more like his take on Fleming's Bond. While TSWLM has its violent Bond moments these are also balanced by the start of the Moore grin/smirk that loses a lot of points for me.
    Thrasos wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I don't know if this is controversial but I don't really consider any of Timothy Dalton's films to be proper Bond films and struggle with their identity within the franchise? I think for me it's the seemingly Americanised tone that I compare to things like Columbo.
    The main reason why LTK doesn't thrill me is that Bond is involved in a "personal" plot and not one to destabilize the world in major ways, which I think he's best in.

    I'm curious on something: If you don't care for LTK's personal plot, then how do you feel about just about every succeeding film as each has that factor in increasing doses.

    Also, LALD has drug running as its plot but it never gets anywhere near the criticism LTK does for the same thing.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Revisiting what I thought were my least-liked Moore films, LALD and FYEO, I must admit I like every single Rog film.

    Refreshing to read someone list LALD and FYEO as his least favorite Rog Bond films. I usually see those 002 and TSWLM always listed as his top 003. (Speaking for myself, MR, OP and TMWTGG are my top 003 of his.)

    Ludovico wrote: »
    Controversial opinion: Moore is at his most Bondian in TMWTGG.

    ITA. And at age 46 he looks like he could pass for 10 years younger in that particular film.

  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,759
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Revisiting what I thought were my least-liked Moore films, LALD and FYEO, I must admit I like every single Rog film.

    Refreshing to read someone list LALD and FYEO as his least favorite Rog Bond films. I usually see those 002 and TSWLM always listed as his top 003. (Speaking for myself, MR, OP and TMWTGG are my top 003 of his.)

    It used to be like this, but I don't think they'll remain my least favourites of his. They might join OP in my Rog top 3 actually.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,664
    BT3366 wrote: »

    I'm curious on something: If you don't care for LTK's personal plot, then how do you feel about just about every succeeding film as each has that factor in increasing doses.

    Also, LALD has drug running as its plot but it never gets anywhere near the criticism LTK does for the same thing.

    I think sometimes when we just don't care for a movie we try to hard to think of objective reasons for it and they're not really legit.

    Not only does LALD have drugs as its plot, but other movies have even less significant villain schemes. The scheme in FRWL is to kill James Bond. In CR, it's to pay off debt by winning a poker match. In TMWTGG, it's apparently to utilize stolen solar power.

    I also tend to find the "Americanization" complaint odd. In a series produced by Americans, written mostly by Americans, and regularly featuring American performers, it's hard to see why a particular entry might be "too Americanized".
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    BT3366 wrote: »

    I'm curious on something: If you don't care for LTK's personal plot, then how do you feel about just about every succeeding film as each has that factor in increasing doses.

    Also, LALD has drug running as its plot but it never gets anywhere near the criticism LTK does for the same thing.

    The scheme in FRWL is to kill James Bond.

    The main scheme was to steal the Lektor decoding device by using Bond, and then selling it back to the Russians at a very high price. Killing Bond was really just the cherry on top. Extortion with a side of revenge.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,664
    BT3366 wrote: »

    I'm curious on something: If you don't care for LTK's personal plot, then how do you feel about just about every succeeding film as each has that factor in increasing doses.

    Also, LALD has drug running as its plot but it never gets anywhere near the criticism LTK does for the same thing.

    The scheme in FRWL is to kill James Bond.

    The main scheme was to steal the Lektor decoding device by using Bond, and then selling it back to the Russians at a very high price. Killing Bond was really just the cherry on top. Extortion with a side of revenge.

    Ah, true. That's also relatively small potatoes, but indeed I must have had the novel more in mind.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    Even in the novel killing Bond is just the side of it, the main goal was to bomb British intelligence with the spektor device booby trapped to explode when examined. An attack with a side of a sex scandal involving a British agent.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited May 2021 Posts: 1,664
    Even in the novel killing Bond is just the side of it, the main goal was to bomb British intelligence with the spektor device booby trapped to explode when examined. An attack with a side of a sex scandal involving a British agent.

    I'll have to reread maybe, but I thought the booby-trapped Spektor was more of a cherry on top. The killing of Bond and the humiliation of the Service seemed to be the point....

    In any case, the killing of Bond is what actually drives both narratives. Franz Sanchez is going to shoot down an airliner, but it's not really the point. Like the booby-trapped Spektor, it wouldn't appear in most plot summaries.
  • Posts: 7,500
    BT3366 wrote: »

    I'm curious on something: If you don't care for LTK's personal plot, then how do you feel about just about every succeeding film as each has that factor in increasing doses.

    Also, LALD has drug running as its plot but it never gets anywhere near the criticism LTK does for the same thing.

    I think sometimes when we just don't care for a movie we try to hard to think of objective reasons for it and they're not really legit.

    Not only does LALD have drugs as its plot, but other movies have even less significant villain schemes. The scheme in FRWL is to kill James Bond. In CR, it's to pay off debt by winning a poker match. In TMWTGG, it's apparently to utilize stolen solar power.

    I also tend to find the "Americanization" complaint odd. In a series produced by Americans, written mostly by Americans, and regularly featuring American performers, it's hard to see why a particular entry might be "too Americanized".

    I sure agree. When fans criticize certain Bond films for not having a grandiose enough villain's scheme, I scratch my head. It used to be a common complaint about QoS a couple of years ago, which was highly ironic considering that Quantums plans in that film is far more threatening than Le Chifre's in CR or Silva's in SF, who basically just wants to kill M. OTT villain's schemes is only a factor in certain films, primarily the ones parodied in Austin Powers. It is not a requirement and some of the best films in the series feature fairly low key threats.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,664
    jobo wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »

    I'm curious on something: If you don't care for LTK's personal plot, then how do you feel about just about every succeeding film as each has that factor in increasing doses.

    Also, LALD has drug running as its plot but it never gets anywhere near the criticism LTK does for the same thing.

    I think sometimes when we just don't care for a movie we try to hard to think of objective reasons for it and they're not really legit.

    Not only does LALD have drugs as its plot, but other movies have even less significant villain schemes. The scheme in FRWL is to kill James Bond. In CR, it's to pay off debt by winning a poker match. In TMWTGG, it's apparently to utilize stolen solar power.

    I also tend to find the "Americanization" complaint odd. In a series produced by Americans, written mostly by Americans, and regularly featuring American performers, it's hard to see why a particular entry might be "too Americanized".

    I sure agree. When fans criticize certain Bond films for not having a grandiose enough villain's scheme, I scratch my head. It used to be a common complaint about QoS a couple of years ago, which was highly ironic considering that Quantums plans in that film is far more threatening than Le Chifre's in CR or Silva's in SF, who basically just wants to kill M. OTT villain's schemes is only a factor in certain films, primarily the ones parodied in Austin Powers. It is not a requirement and some of the best films in the series feature fairly low key threats.

    Right. You don't have to love QoS, but if you rank the films in order of how consequential the schemes are, it's probably not even in the bottom ten.

    Speaking of consequential, and returning to FRWL, the most consequential and dangerous event in that film is surely British agents blowing up a Soviet embassy in Istanbul in 1963! Not anything Spectre was up to.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2021 Posts: 14,861
    BT3366 wrote: »

    I'm curious on something: If you don't care for LTK's personal plot, then how do you feel about just about every succeeding film as each has that factor in increasing doses.

    Also, LALD has drug running as its plot but it never gets anywhere near the criticism LTK does for the same thing.

    I think sometimes when we just don't care for a movie we try to hard to think of objective reasons for it and they're not really legit.

    Not only does LALD have drugs as its plot, but other movies have even less significant villain schemes. The scheme in FRWL is to kill James Bond. In CR, it's to pay off debt by winning a poker match. In TMWTGG, it's apparently to utilize stolen solar power.

    It's not even stolen! The villains' plot is to do legitimate business and James Bond messes it up! :)
    Sure, one of them kills his business partner, but that's still none of Bond's business :D

    Controversial opinion about MWTGG: Bond is the baddie!
    Speaking of consequential, and returning to FRWL, the most consequential and dangerous event in that film is surely British agents blowing up a Soviet embassy in Istanbul in 1963! Not anything Spectre was up to.

    Yes, I always think Bond really messes that up. The embassy isn't destroyed enough for them not to notice the Lektor has gone: so just change the codes. A bit like with the ATAC in FYEO: surely the easiest solution is to change the codes. I get that it's a bit of a faff, but when you're talking about the security of your country it seems worth the effort!
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,759
    LTK will always be a favourite of mine. It's well-written, it's spectacular, it's full of Fleming, it has one of the best villains, it's one of the few films that actually get better towards the end and it has a great Tim Dalton performance too.

    Sure the Miami Vice influences are there - though not as much as many would have you believe - but I love that show, so as far as I'm concerned that's not a bad thing per se.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,921
    I don't know if it's controversial but I tend to prefer the smaller villain plots. Aside from OHMSS, which I love, but even that has an amusing small/petty element as Blofeld is seeking a pardon for his past crimes and a recognition of his title.
  • Posts: 1,469
    BT3366 wrote: »
    I'm curious on something: If you don't care for LTK's personal plot, then how do you feel about just about every succeeding film as each has that factor in increasing doses.
    I have to disagree. After LTK:
    --GE, Trevelyan plans to destroy Britain's economy.
    --TND, Bond thwarts war between China and Britain.
    --TWINE, Bond prevents a nuclear explosion in a sub in a city that was meant to increase the value of an oil pipeline.
    --DAD involves a mirror satellite in space to use as a sun gun to force North Korea's invasion of South Korea.

    After that, yes, we get into more personal plots with CR and QoS. I rank CR high but QoS lower. Then,

    --SF has a major explosion at the MI6 building, killing several people, and Silva going after the head of MI6.
    --SP, Bond thwarts a terrorist attack in Mexico City, and SPECTRE is behind the global intelligence network Nine Eyes, which would shut down the Double-Oh section.

    I think SP has a better plot and is better overall than LTK.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited May 2021 Posts: 5,834
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I don't know if this is controversial but I don't really consider any of Timothy Dalton's films to be proper Bond films and struggle with their identity within the franchise? I think for me it's the seemingly Americanised tone that I compare to things like Columbo.
    What would be some examples of this Americanised tone in TLD?
    I think it's mainly the tone and the style of filmmaking they had taken on. It's the same problem I have with Diamonds are Forever, although done to a more obvious level. When I watch both of Dalton's films, it just reminds me of things like Columbo, Murder She Wrote, or Miami Vice - which is a shame because I think if given a more traditional James Bond adventure with that darker tone like what Craig eventually did, I think I could really have loved Dalton's era.

    On the subject of Spectre, I'll always say the film was a good first draft that needed a lot of work.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited May 2021 Posts: 1,664
    GoldenGun wrote: »

    Sure the Miami Vice influences are there - though not as much as many would have you believe - but I love that show, so as far as I'm concerned that's not a bad thing per se.

    Love this. The usual critiques about Bond copying things with certain movies are lazy, boring, and generally exaggerated, I think. DAF made a lot more money than Shaft did in 1971, and LALD doesn't really feel much like a blaxploitation movie. It has more screentime that's reminiscent of later stuff, like Smokey and the Bandit. LALD made more money than Enter the Dragon in 1973, and the martial arts in TMWTGG make up just a few minutes in the middle and are less emphasized in the marketing than is the return of JW Pepper. Surely if you're trying to capitalize on commercial trends, you'd do it slightly differently.

    As for LTK, if you have to make a movie in 1989 that involves drugs and Florida, you couldn't make it resemble Miami Vice much less. Imagine the very easy changes you would make if you were trying to ape that series: you've got a couple DEA agents that could have been done in a very different style. You could have filmed in much cooler locations. Remember, the movie was originally going to be done in China, and as with TMWTGG and marital arts, the Miami Vicey aspects, to whatever extent they exist, weren't emphasized in the (terrible) marketing campaign.
    mtm wrote: »

    Yes, I always think Bond really messes that up. The embassy isn't destroyed enough for them not to notice the Lektor has gone: so just change the codes.

    When people talk about their preference for more "realistic/gritty" Bond films like FRWL, I have to laugh a bit. Sure, Moonraker asks you to accept a world where the US has Space Marines with laser guns ready to go, but once you're there, characters generally behave in ways that make some sort of sense. A lot of the decision-making to be seen in FRWL (or CR!) is downright baffling.
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I think it's mainly the tone and the style of filmmaking they had taken on. It's the same problem I have with Diamonds are Forever, although done to a more obvious level. When I watch both of Dalton's films, it just reminds me of things like Columbo, Murder She Wrote, or Miami Vice - which is a shame because I think if given a more traditional James Bond adventure with that darker tone like what Craig eventually did, I think I could really have loved Dalton's era.

    :-? I guess I need to watch more Murder She Wrote. I just can't see what you mean, really. I also don't see much stylistic difference between TLD and the three Glen films that preceded it....

    In any case, surely TLD is a more traditional James Bond adventure than any of Craig's first three films?
  • Posts: 14,799
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Controversial opinion: Moore is at his most Bondian in TMWTGG, in spite of the many, many, many flaws of the movie.
    Totally agree. I regret in a way that this interpretation of Bond, in this not so great movie, did not end up in the following installments. There is a sense of sarcasm, of emotional distancing, that makes him an interesting evolution of the character. In a way, I think it could have brought the TSWLM film closer to Christopher Wood's novelization, with a Bond much more reminiscent of his literary counterpart, albeit in a story very far from Fleming's canon.

    Another controversial opinion: I prefer the novelization to the movie TSWLM.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2021 Posts: 14,861
    mtm wrote: »

    Yes, I always think Bond really messes that up. The embassy isn't destroyed enough for them not to notice the Lektor has gone: so just change the codes.

    When people talk about their preference for more "realistic/gritty" Bond films like FRWL, I have to laugh a bit. Sure, Moonraker asks you to accept a world where the US has Space Marines with laser guns ready to go, but once you're there, characters generally behave in ways that make some sort of sense. A lot of the decision-making to be seen in FRWL (or CR!) is downright baffling.

    Plus it's also got a guy in a Bond mask and dinner suit being killed in an exercise, an island full of assassins being trained in an assault course (with flamethrowers!), an evil villain on a yacht with a white cat and fighting fish etc. It's pretty ridiculous as well as making not much sense! :)
    As you say: not exactly 'gritty'. And yes: the Russians are hardly likely going to want to buy the Lektor back off Spectre because once it's been out of their hands they know their codes are compromised. For all they know Spectre is selling a set of the blueprints of the machine to the Americans at the same time. It's a pretty stupid plan.

    Basically it's a bit like if the local burglar knocked on your door and handed over your doorkeys which you'd dropped in the street. Would you say thank you and forget all about it or would you have the locks changed as soon as possible? :D

    In any case, surely TLD is a more traditional James Bond adventure than any of Craig's first three films?

    QoS is a pretty trad Bond film isn't it? Evil villain with evil plan, Bond goes out to stop him. It's even got a big exploding evil base at the end, which TLD doesn't have.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited May 2021 Posts: 1,664
    mtm wrote: »

    Plus it's also got a guy in a Bond mask and dinner suit being killed in an exercise, an island full of assassins being trained in an assault course (with flamethrowers!), an evil villain on a yacht with a white cat and fighting fish etc. It's pretty ridiculous as well as making not much sense! :)

    QoS is a pretty trad Bond film isn't it? Evil villain with evil plan, Bond goes out to stop him. It's even got a big exploding evil base at the end, which TLD doesn't have.

    Actually I ageee on QoS. It's a huge step in the classic Bond direction from CR. It's not quite "business as usual" as TLD is, for sure, but of those three Craig ones, it's by far the most classic Bond.

    And yeah, I could have gone on and on about FRWL (a movie I of course like!). I mean Spectre Island alone is absolute silliness. Which is good! But it's not the movie an awful lot of people think it is!

    And tying in with the "Bond copying trends" issue, it clearly steals from Hitchcock more than LALD does blaxploitation, or TMWTGG does martial arts, or LTK does Miami Vice. It's not even close.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861

    And tying in with the "Bond copying trends" issue, it clearly steals from Hitchcock more than LALD does blaxploitation, or TMWTGG does martial arts, or LTK does Miami Vice. It's not even close.

    Yes it's already on dodgy ground with the train stuff (as well as the blonde of course) and then they do that helicopter scene...
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited May 2021 Posts: 17,728
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I don't know if this is controversial but I don't really consider any of Timothy Dalton's films to be proper Bond films and struggle with their identity within the franchise? I think for me it's the seemingly Americanised tone that I compare to things like Columbo.

    I know that Licence to Kill is criticised being being overly Americanised and influenced by things like the contemporaneous Miami Vice TV series. I'm however not aware of any similar criticisms of Dalton's first Bond film The Living Daylights. Granted it did feature an American main villain in the form of Bard Whitaker and they historically have not fared well as villains in neither the Bond films or novels (one thinks of the weak tea villainy of the Spang Brothers in Fleming's Diamonds Are Forever) but I can't see how Bond or the film is Americanised. Perhaps you can clarify your point? Far from not being proper Bond films I consider the two Dalton films, Lazenby's OHMSS and the early faithful Connery films to be the most proper adaptations of Fleming's work in the Bond film series.

    Also, as a major fan of both Bond and Columbo I can only say that if the Bond films had had the consistency of good writing, tight plotting and stellar acting and direction that that show exhibited it would have been doing all right!
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited May 2021 Posts: 8,009
    When people talk about their preference for more "realistic/gritty" Bond films like FRWL, I have to laugh a bit.

    Though I would consider grit and realism in filmmaking terms to be different things, I must admit that I prefer using the terms "atmospheric" and "low key" when talking about films like FRWL, likely for reasons that overlap with what you're saying here. I don't think there has ever really been a "realistic" Bond film in the truest sense.

    Maybe Dr No (and I stress the maybe), but that likely was only due to budget restraints!
  • edited May 2021 Posts: 1,469
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Far from not being proper Bond films I consider the two Dalton films, Lazenby's OHMSS and the early faithful Connery films to be the most proper adaptations of Fleming's work in the Bond film series.
    Considering your point here, also suggested by GoldenGun at least, perhaps I have been a little harsh toward LTK. And I should rent it again, as it's one of the very few I don't own.

    Since I was curious about this, I think this is the last community film ranking...correct me if I'm wrong. From the "Bond film ranking tournament" thread, June 2020.
    Your verdict:

    01 ON HER MAJESTY S SECRET SERVICE (23)
    02 FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE (22)
    03 CASINO ROYALE (21)
    04 DR. NO/THE SPY WHO LOVED ME (16)
    06 GOLDFINGER/THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS (12)
    08 THUNDERBALL/GOLDENEYE (11)
    10 OCTOPUSSY/SKYFALL (4)
    12 LIVE AND LET DIE (3)
    13 FOR YOUR EYES ONLY (2)
    14 LICENCE TO KILL (1)

    15 QUANTUM OF SOLACE (-2)
    16 YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE (-6)
    17 MOONRAKER (-8)
    18 TOMORROW NEVER DIES (-11)
    19 THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN (-12)
    20 SPECTRE (-14)
    21 DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER (-15)
    22 A VIEW TO A KILL (-18)
    23 THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH (-20)
    24 DIE ANOTHER DAY (-22)
    25 NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN (-24)
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,759
    Thrasos wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Far from not being proper Bond films I consider the two Dalton films, Lazenby's OHMSS and the early faithful Connery films to be the most proper adaptations of Fleming's work in the Bond film series.
    Considering your point here, also suggested by GoldenGun at least, perhaps I have been a little harsh toward LTK. And I should rent it again, as it's one of the very few I don't own.

    Since I was curious about this, I think this is the last community film ranking...correct me if I'm wrong. From the "Bond film ranking tournament" thread, June 2020.
    Your verdict:

    01 ON HER MAJESTY S SECRET SERVICE (23)
    02 FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE (22)
    03 CASINO ROYALE (21)
    04 DR. NO/THE SPY WHO LOVED ME (16)
    06 GOLDFINGER/THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS (12)
    08 THUNDERBALL/GOLDENEYE (11)
    10 OCTOPUSSY/SKYFALL (4)
    12 LIVE AND LET DIE (3)
    13 FOR YOUR EYES ONLY (2)
    14 LICENCE TO KILL (1)

    15 QUANTUM OF SOLACE (-2)
    16 YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE (-6)
    17 MOONRAKER (-8)
    18 TOMORROW NEVER DIES (-11)
    19 THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN (-12)
    20 SPECTRE (-14)
    21 DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER (-15)
    22 A VIEW TO A KILL (-18)
    23 THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH (-20)
    24 DIE ANOTHER DAY (-22)
    25 NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN (-24)

    Last month we've also done a ranking game and this is how it turned out:

    1. ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE
    2. CASINO ROYALE
    3. FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE
    4. Goldfinger
    5. The Living Daylights / GoldenEye
    7. Dr. No
    8. The Spy Who Loved Me
    9. Skyfall
    10. Thunderball
    11. Live and Let Die / Licence to Kill
    13. For Your Eyes Only
    14. Quantum of Solace
    15. Octopussy
    16. Moonraker
    17. You Only Live Twice
    18. Tomorrow Never Dies
    19. The Man with the Golden Gun
    20. The World Is Not Enough
    21. A View to a Kill
    22. Spectre
    23. Diamonds Are Forever
    24. Die Another Day
    25. Never Say Never Again
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