Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,664
    AVTAK was the first Roger Bond I saw when I was 13, and only my second overall, after Goldeneye, and it didn't occur to me at all that the guy in the movie was too old.

    Of course, I see it now, but somehow even in direct comparison to Pierce I didn't notice anything then...
  • Posts: 14,800
    cwl007 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    cwl007 wrote: »
    Here's a view, could be controversial, not sure.
    Just watched Casino Royale (2006) again and I feel that Vesper is really unlikeable for most of the film. I get that she is strong and capable and I enjoy that side of the portrayal. But the main vibe I get from Eva Green's performance is just that Vesper is frosty, unlikeable and someone I would give a wide berth to.

    My controversial view on her is that Green is miscast. As you say, she's very frosty where another actor could have given her a bit more of an enigmatic or attractive edge, she can't do the accent at all, and she can't really even engage in the sexy badinage in the train carriage scene- there's no glint in her eye, her performance is pretty flat and lacks charm all the way through.
    I watch that scene and imagine someone like Diana Rigg reading those lines, and then I feel like we really missed out.

    Picture Rebecca Ferguson playing her: she wouldn't have been croaking her way through the film like Green did.

    I certainly disagree with both of you! I don't think Vesper is frosty at all, this a misinterpretation in my book. What I see is a fasade of perceived strength with vulnerabilty and tenderness under the surface. It is pretty clear that is the intention, Bond even eludes to it in their conversation:
    - "Well, your beauty is a problem. You're worried you will not be taken seriously by your male superiors who mistake your insecurities for arrogance."

    And I think Green conveys this perfectly. I see a girl that is very bright and strong, yet afraid of not being respected in what is a man's business. Yet you can definitely see a personality and vulneraiblity underneath. And I think she has plenty of charm (at least from where I'm standing ;) ). I doesn't come in the traditional girly, coquettish way, but she demonstrates intelligence and independence with an underlying sense mysteri. Bond can't easily have his way with her and she can challenge him intellectually, which is a big reason why he falls in love with her.

    Let's add one thing to this: she's forced to become a traitor due to blackmail. If Bond succeeds, she loses the man she loves. If Bond loses, then she's a success traitor and she might not want to live with herself. She'd become worse than her most fierce detractors think of her. She would also fail her own moral and ethical standards. When Bond first meets her, she's therefore extremely conflicted and must deal with a legion of inner demons. I'd be distant too.

    At what stage in the film does she decide to betray Bond? I think it's after the scene in the ship's hull. If so I'd argue she has a few scenes before that were she is, as I said earlier, not very likeable.

    What? She's been blackmailed for a while! She is already betraying Bond/MI6 when she meets him
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    AVTAK was the first Roger Bond I saw when I was 13, and only my second overall, after Goldeneye, and it didn't occur to me at all that the guy in the movie was too old.

    Of course, I see it now, but somehow even in direct comparison to Pierce I didn't notice anything then...

    I think when you’re a kid all adults are old, kind of all lumped together, unless they’ve got white hair and a walking stick, in which case they’re very old! I agree: he didn’t seem ancient to me as a kid, he just looked like an adult.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,382
    Rog in AVTAK still looked good in parts, especially at Ascot and Paris. However, when he is walking with Lee on the docks is when the age really shows.
  • Posts: 7,500
    cwl007 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    cwl007 wrote: »
    Here's a view, could be controversial, not sure.
    Just watched Casino Royale (2006) again and I feel that Vesper is really unlikeable for most of the film. I get that she is strong and capable and I enjoy that side of the portrayal. But the main vibe I get from Eva Green's performance is just that Vesper is frosty, unlikeable and someone I would give a wide berth to.

    My controversial view on her is that Green is miscast. As you say, she's very frosty where another actor could have given her a bit more of an enigmatic or attractive edge, she can't do the accent at all, and she can't really even engage in the sexy badinage in the train carriage scene- there's no glint in her eye, her performance is pretty flat and lacks charm all the way through.
    I watch that scene and imagine someone like Diana Rigg reading those lines, and then I feel like we really missed out.

    Picture Rebecca Ferguson playing her: she wouldn't have been croaking her way through the film like Green did.

    I certainly disagree with both of you! I don't think Vesper is frosty at all, this a misinterpretation in my book. What I see is a fasade of perceived strength with vulnerabilty and tenderness under the surface. It is pretty clear that is the intention, Bond even eludes to it in their conversation:
    - "Well, your beauty is a problem. You're worried you will not be taken seriously by your male superiors who mistake your insecurities for arrogance."

    And I think Green conveys this perfectly. I see a girl that is very bright and strong, yet afraid of not being respected in what is a man's business. Yet you can definitely see a personality and vulneraiblity underneath. And I think she has plenty of charm (at least from where I'm standing ;) ). I doesn't come in the traditional girly, coquettish way, but she demonstrates intelligence and independence with an underlying sense mysteri. Bond can't easily have his way with her and she can challenge him intellectually, which is a big reason why he falls in love with her.

    Let's add one thing to this: she's forced to become a traitor due to blackmail. If Bond succeeds, she loses the man she loves. If Bond loses, then she's a success traitor and she might not want to live with herself. She'd become worse than her most fierce detractors think of her. She would also fail her own moral and ethical standards. When Bond first meets her, she's therefore extremely conflicted and must deal with a legion of inner demons. I'd be distant too.

    At what stage in the film does she decide to betray Bond? I think it's after the scene in the ship's hull. If so I'd argue she has a few scenes before that were she is, as I said earlier, not very likeable.

    I don't see that. At no point do I feel like her portrayal is dislikeable. On the contrary, to be honest, Bond is the character that has the more dislikeable character traits which Vesper has to deal with. He is arrogant and thinks he is superior to everyone else, he is reckless, proud, cold and self minded. During the dinner scene he thinks he can roll Vesper over and dominate her with his intellectual superiority and is shocked to find that Vesper is able to stand up to him and see right through him. That is why he finds her attractive. I am not saying this as a criticism as it is a deliberate character arch for Bond during the film and Craig has just the right ammount of boyish charm and playfull charisma to make me still like him.

    But lets be frank her: This is not the tale of a sweet and kind man meeting a frosty girl, it's rather the case of Vesper having to deal with a bit of a misogynist asshole and standing up to him, melting his heart in the process. She is the one seeing something good in him where others don't. And I personally see a lot of charm in her playfull banter with Bond.
  • Posts: 14,800
    Rog in AVTAK still looked good in parts, especially at Ascot and Paris. However, when he is walking with Lee on the docks is when the age really shows.

    That's one of the reasons why I don't want a new Bond cast in his 40s: even if like Moore or Brosnan he looks younger than his age, at some point the years will catch on and it can happen very quickly.
  • cwl007cwl007 England
    Posts: 611
    jobo wrote: »
    cwl007 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    cwl007 wrote: »
    Here's a view, could be controversial, not sure.
    Just watched Casino Royale (2006) again and I feel that Vesper is really unlikeable for most of the film. I get that she is strong and capable and I enjoy that side of the portrayal. But the main vibe I get from Eva Green's performance is just that Vesper is frosty, unlikeable and someone I would give a wide berth to.

    My controversial view on her is that Green is miscast. As you say, she's very frosty where another actor could have given her a bit more of an enigmatic or attractive edge, she can't do the accent at all, and she can't really even engage in the sexy badinage in the train carriage scene- there's no glint in her eye, her performance is pretty flat and lacks charm all the way through.
    I watch that scene and imagine someone like Diana Rigg reading those lines, and then I feel like we really missed out.

    Picture Rebecca Ferguson playing her: she wouldn't have been croaking her way through the film like Green did.

    I certainly disagree with both of you! I don't think Vesper is frosty at all, this a misinterpretation in my book. What I see is a fasade of perceived strength with vulnerabilty and tenderness under the surface. It is pretty clear that is the intention, Bond even eludes to it in their conversation:
    - "Well, your beauty is a problem. You're worried you will not be taken seriously by your male superiors who mistake your insecurities for arrogance."

    And I think Green conveys this perfectly. I see a girl that is very bright and strong, yet afraid of not being respected in what is a man's business. Yet you can definitely see a personality and vulneraiblity underneath. And I think she has plenty of charm (at least from where I'm standing ;) ). I doesn't come in the traditional girly, coquettish way, but she demonstrates intelligence and independence with an underlying sense mysteri. Bond can't easily have his way with her and she can challenge him intellectually, which is a big reason why he falls in love with her.

    Let's add one thing to this: she's forced to become a traitor due to blackmail. If Bond succeeds, she loses the man she loves. If Bond loses, then she's a success traitor and she might not want to live with herself. She'd become worse than her most fierce detractors think of her. She would also fail her own moral and ethical standards. When Bond first meets her, she's therefore extremely conflicted and must deal with a legion of inner demons. I'd be distant too.

    At what stage in the film does she decide to betray Bond? I think it's after the scene in the ship's hull. If so I'd argue she has a few scenes before that were she is, as I said earlier, not very likeable.

    I don't see that. At no point do I feel like her portrayal is dislikeable. On the contrary, to be honest, Bond is the character that has the more dislikeable character traits which Vesper has to deal with. He is arrogant and thinks he is superior to everyone else, he is reckless, proud, cold and self minded. During the dinner scene he thinks he can roll Vesper over and dominate her with his intellectual superiority and is shocked to find that Vesper is able to stand up to him and see right through him. That is why he finds her attractive. I am not saying this as a criticism as it is a deliberate character arch for Bond during the film and Craig has just the right ammount of boyish charm and playfull charisma to make me still like him.

    But lets be frank her: This is not the tale of a sweet and kind man meeting a frosty girl, it's rather the case of Vesper having to deal with a bit of a misogynist asshole and standing up to him, melting his heart in the process. She is the one seeing something good in him where others don't. And I personally see a lot of charm in her playfull banter with Bond.

    Good debate and some good points, thanks. I may look at it differently on my next viewing 👍
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2021 Posts: 14,861
    To me she's still rather charmless. Everyone's readings of that scene are the same as mine, I just think she's playing it poorly. Craig is great and giving it some twinkle but she can't match him.
    And the accent is rubbish ;)
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited May 2021 Posts: 1,664
    jobo wrote: »

    But lets be frank her: This is not the tale of a sweet and kind man meeting a frosty girl, it's rather the case of Vesper having to deal with a bit of a misogynist asshole and standing up to him, melting his heart in the process. She is the one seeing something good in him where others don't. And I personally see a lot of charm in her playfull banter with Bond.

    This kind of leads me to an opinion that may be unpopular. I don't actually think Bond ever was meant to be sexist or misogynist or anything else like it.

    He was created and written by a sexist guy, and is therefore sexist in the books, mostly in his internal monologues. But he's not designed to be "a sexist character", ie "more sexist than the world around him". And as far as I can see, EON has never tried to actually present him as a sexist or misogynist character. There's plenty of sexist behavior to see, especially early on, but it was how, in that time, someone would write a character that "men want to be and women want to be with". Bond didn't force himself on Pussy Galore because he's a misogynist character. This was just regular old storytelling at the time. (To be as clear as possible, that scene is pretty appalling!)

    The only moments where I think the writers were trying to offer a Bond who is actually being inappropriately sexist would be "women drivers" in TSWLM and "a woman?" in MR, and both of those seem to be self-aware. That is, Bond himself knows he is being intentionally obnoxious, and we're meant to laugh either at him, or with him to the degree that he knows he's being a dick. A god-awful moment like Bond zooming in on a colleague's cleavage in OP is unfortunately just something that would pass as a joke at the time. The scene isn't there to show some deep, dark, jaded side to Bond. Indeed, the Q scene in that film is probably Bond at his most deliberately obnoxious, and it fits in with MR's "a woman?" line.

    So for me this means I don't want to see any sexism at all from the character of Bond going forward, and I think we've seen little outside the realm of the highly debatable for quite some time. It's not part of his character, even if the occasional meta speech within Bond films suggests otherwise. He was certainly written by a sexist, and the early films in particular were made when different things were acceptable, but that's about where it ends. I mean, he was a racist in the books too: he saw himself as better "than any Korean", and was effusively approving of a colonial officer who gave a long speech about how Black people basically can't govern themselves. Does anybody want James Bond sharing any of these sentiments in the future, or think they're central to his character?



  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    jobo wrote: »

    But lets be frank her: This is not the tale of a sweet and kind man meeting a frosty girl, it's rather the case of Vesper having to deal with a bit of a misogynist asshole and standing up to him, melting his heart in the process. She is the one seeing something good in him where others don't. And I personally see a lot of charm in her playfull banter with Bond.

    This kind of leads me to an opinion that may be unpopular. I don't actually think Bond ever was meant to be sexist or misogynist or anything else like it.

    I think that's fair enough. And as mentioned in the other thread, in the novels he rarely even sleeps with more than one woman. We hear that he does engage in something like 'cold passion with married women' (forgive me, I can't remember exactly how Fleming describes it) but I.F is never making a statement on a sexist character- he's just a man thinking how men of the time thought (or perhaps how I.F thought men of the time thought :) ).
    That that has now become part of his character in the movies in a way makes him a bit more interesting I think: we're not supposed to agree with him; he's supposed to be a bit of a bastard sometimes. I'm not massively interested in characters saying 'ooh you're a sexist' all the time to him because there's not much interesting in that, but if they want to use it dramatically I'm all for it.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,664
    mtm wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »

    But lets be frank her: This is not the tale of a sweet and kind man meeting a frosty girl, it's rather the case of Vesper having to deal with a bit of a misogynist asshole and standing up to him, melting his heart in the process. She is the one seeing something good in him where others don't. And I personally see a lot of charm in her playfull banter with Bond.

    This kind of leads me to an opinion that may be unpopular. I don't actually think Bond ever was meant to be sexist or misogynist or anything else like it.

    I think that's fair enough. And as mentioned in the other thread, in the novels he rarely even sleeps with more than one woman. We hear that he does engage in something like 'cold passion with married women' (forgive me, I can't remember exactly how Fleming describes it) but I.F is never making a statement on a sexist character- he's just a man thinking how men of the time thought (or perhaps how I.F thought men of the time thought :) ).
    That that has now become part of his character in the movies in a way makes him a bit more interesting I think: we're not supposed to agree with him; he's supposed to be a bit of a bastard sometimes. I'm not massively interested in characters saying 'ooh you're a sexist' all the time to him because there's not much interesting in that, but if they want to use it dramatically I'm all for it.

    Look, we agree on stuff! ;-)

    God, can you imagine what it would be like if Fleming tried to make Bond sexist? :)) Anyway, I think Bond should be a bit of a bastard, and I don't mind if he's accused of sexism or things a bit because of his (usually-strategic) womanizing. But I wouldn't actually want him to be a reliable sexist, because then I wouldn't like him very much. Cheeky dismissal of women would kind of read as being as classy as smoking cigarettes, I reckon.

    Possibly my favorite scene between Bond and any woman is his conversation with Camille in the plane in QOS, where she talks about sleeping with Greene to get close to Medrano, and asks if he disapproves. Bond laughs, "Not at all" with a broad, actually-warm smile. It's terrific. They're both cold bastards of a sort, and neither ends up as the kind of grossly bigoted type I'd block on social media.... :))
  • Bentley007Bentley007 Manitoba, Canada
    Posts: 564
    I think the first half of Moonraker is on par with For Your Eyes Only in terms of gritty, Fleming based thriller. Up until the cable car showdown with Jaws the film almost has a horror vibe. I would have loved to see the producers and director commit to this for the final half of the film instead of the over the top ending we got. My controversial opinion is that Moonraker may be the best original Bond plot in the film series and better than the plot for The Spy Who Loved Me.
  • Posts: 1,545
    As for R Moore looking too old for the part come on -- of course he did, and not just for AVTAK. He looked wrong for it in OP, and as early as FYEO. The producers even acknowledged it in OP with running after the car while hoping for a lift. Genuine commandos can alternate running and quick-walking to get someplace quickly. OK, so we've got a mature Bond here who's simply not up to that stuff anymore. In FYEO the ridiculous sub-plot with the young lady wanting him -- yes, there's people on both sides of that dynamic who would do that, but what's the point of even having it in the movie ? Bond could be 10 or more years younger and she'd STILL be too young. Moving on to AVTAK -- quite the mismatch between Bond and the leading lady. Rather creepy, especially since a more comfortable relationship already was portrayed in the film with Bond and the Russian spy who had prior experiences with each other. But-- never mind all that, because here it is pure and simple: [1] Bond's wardrobe changed in the later films, to disguise his mid-section. (remember those non-fashionable vests ?) [2] His hair. If you didn't notice it, you're quite forgiving. He should have moved on one or two films earlier. HOWEVER -- if it kept us from having James Brolin, an American actor already too old for the part, as well, in the role, then here's to those Mature Bond films !!! (I do think, though, that the producers were not sincere re: Brolin. I think it was strictly to push RM in negotiations -- though could he possibly have taken that seriously ?!!?)
  • Posts: 1,545
    Interesting comments about MR ! I also recall how some of it was great. That lab in Venice which became a salon with the villain unable to resist sitting there acting as though he were surprised at the visit. The fact in the glass shop which ended -- I cannot resist so here it comes -- on a sour note for the man who fought against Bond, with his body as broken as the glasses and vases. Using the music when Bond rode in costume -- umm, WHY was he doing that ? He was not a dang tourist having "the full local experience", after all -- was corny. The danger during Carnival in Rio was rather like a similar segment of TB, and I liked it very much because of that. Once the stuff happened like Bond in Space, and Jaws meeting the pig-tailed lady -- ugh, the worst -- and becoming a good guy, then the film had careened off into silly land. But -- thanks for the reminder that it started out much better !
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited May 2021 Posts: 5,921
    The difference between OP and MR is that OP's problems were easily fixable in the editing room.

    Bringing back Jaws, then giving him a girlfriend with pigtails and braces, then sending him to space, then making him a good guy...MR makes one wrong turn after another in the second half.

    In AVTAK, the problem is the writing of Stacey, especially the creepy infantilizing of her in her childhood home. It's so weird: they made her a geologist and they gave her some decent scenes where she is correctly deducing the villain's plan, but man, those home scenes...

    If they made Stacey more of an adult, Moore would have seemed less grandfatherly. I think Carole Bouquet is even younger than Moore in her film, but the way she is written as a capable, independent adult makes all the difference.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    edited May 2021 Posts: 3,262
    Bentley007 wrote: »
    My controversial opinion is that Moonraker may be the best original Bond plot in the film series and better than the plot for The Spy Who Loved Me.

    Certainly agree about MR's plot being better than TSWLM. Drax has certainly thought through his destroy human life on the earth to remake the world in his mage plot better than Stromberg did. Drax's space city provides a safe place for he and his minions to wait out his plan of global destruction. Wouldn't Stromberg and his underlings have been affected by the nuclear fallout from WWIII? And if they had survived how exactly were they going to replenish human life in his under the sea kingdom? The only females in Stromberg's empire(his secretary and Naomi) were both dead at that point. It's a good thing for him that he happened to capture Triple X just before his attempt to implement his plan or the human species would've died out completely fairly soon. Drax with his stable of "perfect" male and female humans to create his "master race in space" had certainly thought further ahead.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    Stealing his own space shuttle back just because one of his broke down is a bit of a twine though :)
    That said, it is the sort of slightly unlikely contrivance I could sort of imagine Fleming writing though!
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited May 2021 Posts: 17,728
    mtm wrote: »
    Stealing his own space shuttle back just because one of his broke down is a bit of a twine though :)
    That said, it is the sort of slightly unlikely contrivance I could sort of imagine Fleming writing though!

    I suppose in stories such as these there has to be some sort of "tell" as to what the dastardly villain is up to and this event, though perhaps contrived, was enough to bring Bond onto the case to investigate matters. At least it was later adequately explained why Hugo Drax was forced to hijack his own space shuttle and it wasn't an annoying loose end.
  • Posts: 14,800
    Never been a big fan of either TSWLM or MR to be honest. Too much sci-fi stuff, the villains plot recycled twice from YOLT and it does not really withstand even the most superficial scrutiny. Production value is superior to early Moore films and Sir Rog himself is at the top of his game, but I must say I preferred him when he was finding his feet. He was more Bondian.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2021 Posts: 14,861
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Stealing his own space shuttle back just because one of his broke down is a bit of a twine though :)
    That said, it is the sort of slightly unlikely contrivance I could sort of imagine Fleming writing though!

    I suppose in stories such as these there has to be some sort of "tell" as to what the dastardly villain is up to and this event, though perhaps contrived, was enough to bring Bond onto the case to investigate matters. At least it was later adequately explained why Hugo Drax was forced to hijack his own space shuttle and it wasn't an annoying loose end.

    Fairly rubbish explanation though :D He stole his own space shuttle because, erm... he just did okay ? :D
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Never been a big fan of either TSWLM or MR to be honest. Too much sci-fi stuff, the villains plot recycled twice from YOLT

    And arguably (and legally questionably considering they didn't own the story) developed only slightly from the plot of Thunderball. The only real difference with TSWLM is that Stromberg steals the things the missiles are inside. He still hides them in a boat though, just like Largo! :)
    The other key change of course is that he actually wants to use them!
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,664
    I think MR gets an unfair rap with the "YOLT remake 2" business. TSWLM of course is a carbon copy of YOLT: the first act of both is all "talk to this guy who will send you to this guy who knows this other guy" nonsense, even down to the (very stupid) scenes where Bond looks at an overhead projector with the oblivious head of a foreign secret service.

    MR doesn't have the "play two sides against each other" angle at all, and replaces it with something that makes at least a bit more sense. It's only really similar in terms of scope. And of course, they repeat the TSWLM idea of pairing Bond with a female agent. The only YOLT-original stuff is that there's a hijacking, and a gadget vehicle chase.
  • Posts: 1,394
    I find complaints of Bonds seduction of Pussy galore in the barn scene being being '' appalling '' and '' rapey '' to be ridiculous.Lets not forget that Bond is the prisoner in this scene and is being kept on that farm against his will.Goldfinger has told him that not only is he going to detonate an atmoic bomb in Fort Knox but that hes going to place right next to it as it goes off.

    Bond is perfectly justified in using any means to escape this situation.Pussy at this moment seems to have no problem keeping him prisoner and having Bond be vaporised along with the rest of Fort Knox ( Not to mention the resulting disastrous enviromental damage and loss of life on a huge scale ).

    Appealing to Pussys '' maternal instincts '' not only saved Bonds life but countless others.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited May 2021 Posts: 17,728
    mtm wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Stealing his own space shuttle back just because one of his broke down is a bit of a twine though :)
    That said, it is the sort of slightly unlikely contrivance I could sort of imagine Fleming writing though!

    I suppose in stories such as these there has to be some sort of "tell" as to what the dastardly villain is up to and this event, though perhaps contrived, was enough to bring Bond onto the case to investigate matters. At least it was later adequately explained why Hugo Drax was forced to hijack his own space shuttle and it wasn't an annoying loose end.

    Fairly rubbish explanation though :D He stole his own space shuttle because, erm... he just did okay ? :D
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Never been a big fan of either TSWLM or MR to be honest. Too much sci-fi stuff, the villains plot recycled twice from YOLT

    And arguably (and legally questionably considering they didn't own the story) developed only slightly from the plot of Thunderball. The only real difference with TSWLM is that Stromberg steals the things the missiles are inside. He still hides them in a boat though, just like Largo! :)
    The other key change of course is that he actually wants to use them!

    Granted, as I said above, that element of the plot is rather contrived but the writer Christopher Wood has Drax later explain to Bond that one of his own Moonraker space shuttles developed a fault during assembly and he needed to hijack the one on loan to the UK. Without that happening Bond would have no lead into the story. Of course some other contrivance could have been written but that was what Wood ultimately went with. All that said, I still think Moonraker is the better film overall when compared with The Spy Who Loved Me where the story isn't quite so well tied up, especially in terms of the outworkings of Stromberg’s plan and the motivations behind it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Stealing his own space shuttle back just because one of his broke down is a bit of a twine though :)
    That said, it is the sort of slightly unlikely contrivance I could sort of imagine Fleming writing though!

    I suppose in stories such as these there has to be some sort of "tell" as to what the dastardly villain is up to and this event, though perhaps contrived, was enough to bring Bond onto the case to investigate matters. At least it was later adequately explained why Hugo Drax was forced to hijack his own space shuttle and it wasn't an annoying loose end.

    Fairly rubbish explanation though :D He stole his own space shuttle because, erm... he just did okay ? :D
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Never been a big fan of either TSWLM or MR to be honest. Too much sci-fi stuff, the villains plot recycled twice from YOLT

    And arguably (and legally questionably considering they didn't own the story) developed only slightly from the plot of Thunderball. The only real difference with TSWLM is that Stromberg steals the things the missiles are inside. He still hides them in a boat though, just like Largo! :)
    The other key change of course is that he actually wants to use them!

    Granted, as I said above, that element of the plot is rather contrived but the writer Christopher Wood has Drax later explain to Bond that one of his own Moonraker space shuttles developed a fault during assembly and he needed to hijack the one on loan to the UK.

    Well I know, it's in the film; it's just a really arbitrary, brushed-off explanation for the basis upon which the whole film lays. Why not just ask for it back? It is his, after all.

    It would actually make more sense if he were stealing a NASA shuttle because one of his Moonrakers developed a fault. Then find some other reason for Bond to investigate him.

    But that's okay, because Moonraker isn't really about the story: it's about the spectacle.

    Dragonpol wrote: »
    All that said, I still think Moonraker is the better film overall when compared with The Spy Who Loved Me where the story isn't quite so well tied up, especially in terms of the outworkings of Stromberg’s plan and the motivations behind it.

    I love MR but TSWLM just clicks as a film better for me: the action sequences just work better and the jokes flow smoother. I love MR but it's a little bit clunkier whereas TSWLM is just a great adventure- I think it might be the best Bond film.
  • Posts: 14,800
    mtm wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Stealing his own space shuttle back just because one of his broke down is a bit of a twine though :)
    That said, it is the sort of slightly unlikely contrivance I could sort of imagine Fleming writing though!

    I suppose in stories such as these there has to be some sort of "tell" as to what the dastardly villain is up to and this event, though perhaps contrived, was enough to bring Bond onto the case to investigate matters. At least it was later adequately explained why Hugo Drax was forced to hijack his own space shuttle and it wasn't an annoying loose end.

    Fairly rubbish explanation though :D He stole his own space shuttle because, erm... he just did okay ? :D
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Never been a big fan of either TSWLM or MR to be honest. Too much sci-fi stuff, the villains plot recycled twice from YOLT

    And arguably (and legally questionably considering they didn't own the story) developed only slightly from the plot of Thunderball. The only real difference with TSWLM is that Stromberg steals the things the missiles are inside. He still hides them in a boat though, just like Largo! :)
    The other key change of course is that he actually wants to use them!

    I always thought YOLT was a bigger and dumber DN.
  • Posts: 7,500
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Stealing his own space shuttle back just because one of his broke down is a bit of a twine though :)
    That said, it is the sort of slightly unlikely contrivance I could sort of imagine Fleming writing though!

    I suppose in stories such as these there has to be some sort of "tell" as to what the dastardly villain is up to and this event, though perhaps contrived, was enough to bring Bond onto the case to investigate matters. At least it was later adequately explained why Hugo Drax was forced to hijack his own space shuttle and it wasn't an annoying loose end.

    It should have been like in the old novels: Drax blows his cover by cheating at cards ;)
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 17,728
    jobo wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Stealing his own space shuttle back just because one of his broke down is a bit of a twine though :)
    That said, it is the sort of slightly unlikely contrivance I could sort of imagine Fleming writing though!

    I suppose in stories such as these there has to be some sort of "tell" as to what the dastardly villain is up to and this event, though perhaps contrived, was enough to bring Bond onto the case to investigate matters. At least it was later adequately explained why Hugo Drax was forced to hijack his own space shuttle and it wasn't an annoying loose end.

    It should have been like in the old novels: Drax blows his cover by cheating at cards ;)

    I can only agree. I really wish Moonraker had been filmed faithfully as in my opinion it's Fleming's best Bond novel. The cheating at cards is certainly a more subtle "tell" than what happens in the film albeit that it's incidental to Drax’s real plot in the novel. It's all the more realistic for being so as real world intelligence agencies and police often stumble on smaller incidental things which lead to much bigger things being uncovered.
  • Posts: 2,400
    Here's one that I'm now on board with:

    Octopussy is Roger Moore's greatest Bond film.
  • Posts: 14,800
    That's something I always loved in crime fiction: the private eye sent to find out about an cheating wife, or some other minor thing, and ending up trying to find a murderer involving the mob and important politicians or what have you. I remember one novel where the main is first introduced with the hero, a young cop at the start of the story, giving him a parking ticket. But I digress...

    Part of me thinks MR should have been adapted in the early 60s. Some plot elements are vaguely reminiscent of The Manchurian Candidate.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2021 Posts: 14,861
    Ludovico wrote: »
    That's something I always loved in crime fiction: the private eye sent to find out about an cheating wife, or some other minor thing, and ending up trying to find a murderer involving the mob and important politicians or what have you. I remember one novel where the main is first introduced with the hero, a young cop at the start of the story, giving him a parking ticket. But I digress...

    Part of me thinks MR should have been adapted in the early 60s. Some plot elements are vaguely reminiscent of The Manchurian Candidate.

    I guess the issue is that Bond is the best of the best and should always really be investigating the big cases from the start. Having him coincidentally encounter these bad guys socially (as Fleming had him do in MR) is kind of only one step away from having the bad guy turn out to be his foster brother, and a lot of people didn't like that ;)

    Something like Trigger Mortis is maybe a good incidence of that: he's sent out on a mission which befits his abilities to prevent what is essentially a Russian PR stunt, which then leads him onto a much bigger and more dangerous plan. I guess the Living Daylights movie is similar.

    I've just realised that the opening of AVTAK is actually sort of a remake of the MR novel opening too: M takes Bond to a gambling event where the main baddie is present and they discover that he's cheating.
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