The Brosnan era was actually more fun for Bond fans

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    Glen over Tamahori? Can’t argue with that. Glen over Mendes? Nah.

    Am I harsh on Glen? Yeah, because I don’t think he was all that great. But I wouldn’t call him the worst of the lot. I’d put Spottiswoode, Apted, Tamahori, and Forster well below Glen.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited February 2020 Posts: 8,009
    Getafix wrote: »
    Bond confronting Pushkin in his hotel room is one of the best scenes in the series, for my money.

    The entire first hour or so of TLD is arguably the best bit of cinematic Bond in the series. Or up there anyway.

    The Glen bashing on here is ridiculous.

    I am not a Moore era fan and I generally don't appreciate Glen's work in that period as much as you do, but I think Glen's work on TLD and LTK is some of the most efficient in the series.

    As well as the above moment, which is glorious, there is the oft-mentioned moment where Dalton pops the 'smiert spionam' balloon after Saunders death, which is possibly my favourite Bond moment ever. Perfectly encapsulates the character for me.

    So yes, I think Glen had a grasp on the character, he was just such an efficient and workmanlike director that those moments don't draw attention to themselves despite their strong qualities.

    This is a contrast to some of Apted's work in TWINE and Mendes' directing in SP (which in itself was a drop on his work in SF), which works overtime to wring every drop of drama out of a poor script, rather than it feeling natural and earned. It almost feels like 'overdirection' in comparison.
  • Posts: 1,879
    Getafix wrote: »
    Bond confronting Pushkin in his hotel room is one of the best scenes in the series, for my money.

    The entire first hour or so of TLD is arguably the best bit of cinematic Bond in the series. Or up there anyway.

    The Glen bashing on here is ridiculous.

    I am not a Moore era fan and I generally don't appreciate Glen's work in that period as much as you do, but I think Glen's work on TLD and LTK is some of the most efficient in the series.

    As well as the above moment, which is glorious, there is the oft-mentioned moment where Dalton pops the 'smiert spionam' balloon after Saunders death, which is possibly my favourite Bond moment ever. Perfectly encapsulates the character for me.

    So yes, I think Glen had a grasp on the character, he was just such an efficient and workmanlike director that those moments don't draw attention to themselves despite their strong qualities.

    This is a contrast to some of Apted's work in TWINE and Mendes' directing in SP (which in itself was a drop on his work in SF), which works overtime to wring every drop of drama out of a poor script, rather than it feeling natural and earned. It almost feels like 'overdirection' in comparison.

    Some good points here. I'll add to the balloon popping the impulsiveness of Bond leaping the fence, Walther drawn only to be shocked by a mother and son and Barry's action theme to top it off; I always look forward to that bit when I play the soundtrack. It's another great character moment and he has to contain that as he directs the anger at Kara.

    It's far and away more interesting than either TWINE or SP. LTK is more of a hit and miss as far as Glen's direction, but more forgivable overall since so much else works, at least for me. It helps greatly that Dalton is so watchable.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,009
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Bond confronting Pushkin in his hotel room is one of the best scenes in the series, for my money.

    The entire first hour or so of TLD is arguably the best bit of cinematic Bond in the series. Or up there anyway.

    The Glen bashing on here is ridiculous.

    I am not a Moore era fan and I generally don't appreciate Glen's work in that period as much as you do, but I think Glen's work on TLD and LTK is some of the most efficient in the series.

    As well as the above moment, which is glorious, there is the oft-mentioned moment where Dalton pops the 'smiert spionam' balloon after Saunders death, which is possibly my favourite Bond moment ever. Perfectly encapsulates the character for me.

    So yes, I think Glen had a grasp on the character, he was just such an efficient and workmanlike director that those moments don't draw attention to themselves despite their strong qualities.

    This is a contrast to some of Apted's work in TWINE and Mendes' directing in SP (which in itself was a drop on his work in SF), which works overtime to wring every drop of drama out of a poor script, rather than it feeling natural and earned. It almost feels like 'overdirection' in comparison.

    Some good points here. I'll add to the balloon popping the impulsiveness of Bond leaping the fence, Walther drawn only to be shocked by a mother and son and Barry's action theme to top it off; I always look forward to that bit when I play the soundtrack. It's another great character moment and he has to contain that as he directs the anger at Kara.

    It's far and away more interesting than either TWINE or SP. LTK is more of a hit and miss as far as Glen's direction, but more forgivable overall since so much else works, at least for me. It helps greatly that Dalton is so watchable.

    And as far as LTK goes, Bond's moment of reflection after Sanchez's demise, where it looks like he almost feels worse for succeeding, is another mark in Glen's favour.

    A film like TWINE would have benefited greatly from a more economic director like Glen. And I say that as someone who actually likes TWINE greatly, despite its flaws.

    I suspect we're going wildly off topic now, but I suppose it was inevitable.
  • WhyBondWhyBond USA
    Posts: 65
    I see Octopussy being thrown around. I just have to ask is the finale where Bond is holding on a plane going upside down at high speeds possible without being blown off?
  • edited February 2020 Posts: 3,273
    Getafix wrote: »
    Bond confronting Pushkin in his hotel room is one of the best scenes in the series, for my money.

    The entire first hour or so of TLD is arguably the best bit of cinematic Bond in the series. Or up there anyway.

    The Glen bashing on here is ridiculous.

    Glen is up there with Young and Hamilton as my favourite Bond directors.

    His work on TLD and LTK in particular is superb. Probably the only director to really understand the Fleming character after Young. Best moments for me are Dalton with the rifle at the beginning of TLD, the balloon burst, the Aston Martin sequence, and the plane fight with Necros.

    In LTK - too many to mention. This is one film where Fleming's creation finally makes it to the screen, helped obviously by Dalton, but also by Glen's direction too. He really understood Fleming's Bond.
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    Posts: 3,497
    Getafix wrote: »
    Bond confronting Pushkin in his hotel room is one of the best scenes in the series, for my money.

    The entire first hour or so of TLD is arguably the best bit of cinematic Bond in the series. Or up there anyway.

    The Glen bashing on here is ridiculous.

    Glen is up there with Young and Hamilton as my favourite Bond directors.

    His work on TLD and LTK in particular is superb. Probably the only director to really understand the Fleming character after Young. Best moments for me are Dalton with the rifle at the beginning of TLD, the balloon burst, the Aston Martin sequence, and the plane fight with Necros.

    In LTK - too many to mention. This is one film where Fleming's creation finally makes it to the screen, helped obviously by Dalton, but also by Glen's direction too. He really understood Fleming's Bond.

    Now, imagine Glen with Brosnan. :)>-
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,518
    Bond confronting Pushkin in his hotel room is one of the best scenes in the series, for my money.

    Definitely sticks out in my mind, so I agree.

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    JamesCraig wrote: »

    Now, imagine Glen with Brosnan. :)>-

    Thankfully we got Campbell for GE.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    Getafix wrote: »
    Bond confronting Pushkin in his hotel room is one of the best scenes in the series, for my money.

    The entire first hour or so of TLD is arguably the best bit of cinematic Bond in the series. Or up there anyway.

    The Glen bashing on here is ridiculous.

    Glen is up there with Young and Hamilton as my favourite Bond directors.

    His work on TLD and LTK in particular is superb. Probably the only director to really understand the Fleming character after Young. Best moments for me are Dalton with the rifle at the beginning of TLD, the balloon burst, the Aston Martin sequence, and the plane fight with Necros.

    In LTK - too many to mention. This is one film where Fleming's creation finally makes it to the screen, helped obviously by Dalton, but also by Glen's direction too. He really understood Fleming's Bond.

    Seeing all the (mostly) love for John Glen on here, i was wondering is there a John Glen appreciation thread...?
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,532
    Getafix wrote: »
    Bond confronting Pushkin in his hotel room is one of the best scenes in the series, for my money.

    The entire first hour or so of TLD is arguably the best bit of cinematic Bond in the series. Or up there anyway.

    The Glen bashing on here is ridiculous.

    Coming from the biggest Brosnan basher on here, that's saying something.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    Also the biggest Dalton fan aside from our very Major D. Smythe. Hmm....
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,882
    Also the biggest Dalton fan aside from our very Major D. Smythe. Hmm....

    Are you trying to flirt with me, 'cause i'm blushing right now.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    WhyBond wrote: »
    I see Octopussy being thrown around. I just have to ask is the finale where Bond is holding on a plane going upside down at high speeds possible without being blown off?

    Can someone please test this out?
  • Posts: 11,425
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Bond confronting Pushkin in his hotel room is one of the best scenes in the series, for my money.

    The entire first hour or so of TLD is arguably the best bit of cinematic Bond in the series. Or up there anyway.

    The Glen bashing on here is ridiculous.

    Glen is up there with Young and Hamilton as my favourite Bond directors.

    His work on TLD and LTK in particular is superb. Probably the only director to really understand the Fleming character after Young. Best moments for me are Dalton with the rifle at the beginning of TLD, the balloon burst, the Aston Martin sequence, and the plane fight with Necros.

    In LTK - too many to mention. This is one film where Fleming's creation finally makes it to the screen, helped obviously by Dalton, but also by Glen's direction too. He really understood Fleming's Bond.

    Now, imagine Glen with Brosnan. :)>-

    That would have been interesting. I really don't rate Campbell that highly. This is the man who wanted to cast Cavill instead of Craig. I would have liked to see what Glen might have got from Brosnan.

    While I rate Glen highly he also benefited from having intelligent, crafted Maibaum screenplays to work with. Plus Moore and Dalton. He had a fair wind behind him that's for sure.
  • Posts: 2,887
    Can someone please test this out?

    Let's ask Roger's stuntman if he was killed or not.

  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,518
    WhyBond wrote: »
    I see Octopussy being thrown around. I just have to ask is the finale where Bond is holding on a plane going upside down at high speeds possible without being blown off?

    Can someone please test this out?

    Ethan Hunt can confirm. :P
    Helps to be harnessed to the plain however. ;)
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    WhyBond wrote: »
    I see Octopussy being thrown around. I just have to ask is the finale where Bond is holding on a plane going upside down at high speeds possible without being blown off?

    Can someone please test this out?

    Tom Cruise did.

  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    edited February 2020 Posts: 3,497
    Remington wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Bond confronting Pushkin in his hotel room is one of the best scenes in the series, for my money.

    The entire first hour or so of TLD is arguably the best bit of cinematic Bond in the series. Or up there anyway.

    The Glen bashing on here is ridiculous.

    Coming from the biggest Brosnan basher on here, that's saying something.

    He likes to bash for the sake of bashing.

    I do think that he's not a bad person though. ;))
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    edited February 2020 Posts: 984
    Getafix wrote: »
    Daniel316 wrote: »
    My issue with TLD mainly is it's plot (Is complex at first and not explained well), The pacing is all over the bloody place with the movie never stopping to breathe so you get all these plot elements one after another and they never have time to be explained or be resolved. Koskov is an atrocious villain and while Whitaker is better he still falls flat due to lack of screentime and poor writing (The Final Duel with him and Bond is fantastic though), Necros is good although I feel Stamper is a much better Grant clone than Necros.

    That Felix is god awful as well, feeling more like some 80's sitcom character thrown onto a Bond set and made to be Felix, it's a joke really. My last issue is probably that a lot of stuff could be cut down because some of it feels like it's added on for the sake of expanding screentime (same issue You Only Live Twice had imo) and really you could cut them down or out entirely and nothing of value is lost (mainly lots of the Afghan scenes, they tend to drag). Oh and the Score by John Barry is insanely repetitive and there's only like 6 genuinely great tracks while the rest are forgettable or bland remixes of the fantastic title theme.

    Overall TLD is a decent movie but it's got serious flaws that hurt it and I feel the other 80's movies were just overall better handled and more enjoyable than TLD is. Thankfully Dalton got a fantastic movie that fixed pretty much every issue with TLD in the form of LTK. LTK is fantastic.


    Edit: MakeShiftPython: Nice to see the old "You're insane if you don't have X opinion" schtick

    I always rather liked Koskov as a villain and thought Whittaker was the weaker link. Necros is an awesome henchman. One of the best

    Necros was good, but the other two where terrible. I think they where going with the FRWL vibe of having the villainy somewhat evenly split across three characters, but it failed in that regard.

    Good film, bad villains.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Daniel316 wrote: »
    My issue with TLD mainly is it's plot (Is complex at first and not explained well), The pacing is all over the bloody place with the movie never stopping to breathe so you get all these plot elements one after another and they never have time to be explained or be resolved. Koskov is an atrocious villain and while Whitaker is better he still falls flat due to lack of screentime and poor writing (The Final Duel with him and Bond is fantastic though), Necros is good although I feel Stamper is a much better Grant clone than Necros.

    That Felix is god awful as well, feeling more like some 80's sitcom character thrown onto a Bond set and made to be Felix, it's a joke really. My last issue is probably that a lot of stuff could be cut down because some of it feels like it's added on for the sake of expanding screentime (same issue You Only Live Twice had imo) and really you could cut them down or out entirely and nothing of value is lost (mainly lots of the Afghan scenes, they tend to drag). Oh and the Score by John Barry is insanely repetitive and there's only like 6 genuinely great tracks while the rest are forgettable or bland remixes of the fantastic title theme.

    Overall TLD is a decent movie but it's got serious flaws that hurt it and I feel the other 80's movies were just overall better handled and more enjoyable than TLD is. Thankfully Dalton got a fantastic movie that fixed pretty much every issue with TLD in the form of LTK. LTK is fantastic.


    Edit: MakeShiftPython: Nice to see the old "You're insane if you don't have X opinion" schtick

    Today its downbeat tone and classical stylings are very much in vogue. Back then The Living Daylights represented a welcome return to some forgotten haunts of Fleming. For the first time in years, the franchise was taking itself seriously. Out with the pantomime; in with the espionage.

    Timothy Dalton's monogamous, deadpan 007 brings a more nuanced interpretation to the central character, whose relationships evolve in ways rarely seen in the earlier films. Dalton manages the Connery trick of seeming suave and tough at the same time, and tried to get away from the weak comedy in favour of proper international intrigue.

    In theory, it's a quality all the Bond films should have, what with their beautiful settings and beautiful people, their idealised tales of good triumphing over evil. In practice, though, they can be too comic and shallow (as per the 90's). The Living Daylights is different; even from a quarter of a century away, there's nothing to sully the romantic air. It's no coincidence that the most recent Bond films are the closest in tone.

    Barry also delivers the best Bond score of the 80's.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,009
    I actually like Koskov as a villain. Krabbé gives a suitably slimy performance and he delivers some of his lines with the verve of someone who has just had a delicious meal put on the table in front of him.

    I think that character has a lot in common with Greene in QoS in terms of manner, though Greene is less effective in that film than Koskov is in The Living Daylights.
  • Posts: 11,425

    I actually like Koskov as a villain. Krabbé gives a suitably slimy performance and he delivers some of his lines with the verve of someone who has just had a delicious meal put on the table in front of him.

    I think that character has a lot in common with Greene in QoS in terms of manner, though Greene is less effective in that film than Koskov is in The Living Daylights.

    +1
  • Daniel316Daniel316 United States
    Posts: 210
    If Koskov's job is to make me severely annoyed and make me want to dread rewatching TLD a bit while also making me look down at my phone and do something else when he's on screen or go into text rants about how awful he is whenever I finish watching then I guess he's doing his job well. Greene is similar to Koskov yes but Greene has a real personality, isn't so overly obnoxious and he never tries to be more than what he is: a cowardly buisness man who thinks he's all big and mighty due to having bodyguards and being rich.
  • Posts: 6,727
    Getafix wrote: »
    I actually like Koskov as a villain. Krabbé gives a suitably slimy performance and he delivers some of his lines with the verve of someone who has just had a delicious meal put on the table in front of him.

    I think that character has a lot in common with Greene in QoS in terms of manner, though Greene is less effective in that film than Koskov is in The Living Daylights.

    +1

    +2
    Though I do like Dominic Greene a lot!
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,009
    Daniel316 wrote: »
    If Koskov's job is to make me severely annoyed and make me want to dread rewatching TLD a bit while also making me look down at my phone and do something else when he's on screen or go into text rants about how awful he is whenever I finish watching then I guess he's doing his job well. Greene is similar to Koskov yes but Greene has a real personality, isn't so overly obnoxious and he never tries to be more than what he is: a cowardly buisness man who thinks he's all big and mighty due to having bodyguards and being rich.

    I would say that a villain trying to be more than what they actually are is a trait that leads to their downfall being more satisfying, personally. I think both Greene and Koskov have that quality, even if they're on the lower end of the memorability scale.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I think they're both quite memorable. Plausible characters rather than pure pantomime villains
  • Daniel316Daniel316 United States
    edited February 2020 Posts: 210
    Well yeah they're both memorable and in a way seeing Koskov finally go down is satisfying due to how annoying he is but I feel that the issue with him was that they never really had Bond get any payback on him, Koskov got Bond multiple times but Bond didn't get him hardly at all in return. After he somehow lives through that Jeep explosion (seriously how?) He's simply implied to have been executed by order of Pushkin which is fine but why not let Bond get some licks in first before doing that ya know? It just feels like they could've handled it better than they did in all honesty. I think the way Greene goes out and gets his due is done a lot better, Bond has all he needs from him and he leaves him to die in the desert as he knows Quantum will kill him anyway so Bond doesn't feel the need to just murder someone who indeed answered all his questions which I do heavily admire. Honestly the ending scenes to both CR and QOS are fantastic and the way they handle the big bad guys is done pretty well.
  • edited February 2020 Posts: 6,727
    Getafix wrote: »
    I think they're both quite memorable. Plausible characters rather than pure pantomime villains

    Have to say I like Whitaker too, certainly Joe Don Baker comes across better than that horribly irritating Jack Wade character! Also love Bonds final shootout with Whitaker, nicely staged!
  • Daniel316Daniel316 United States
    Posts: 210
    Joe Don Baker imo is what saves the Whitaker character, also yes it's an excellent final duel. Though I think Wade is a much better character than Whitaker
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