The Brosnan era was actually more fun for Bond fans

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  • edited February 2020 Posts: 11,425
    Daniel316 wrote: »
    My issue with TLD mainly is it's plot (Is complex at first and not explained well), The pacing is all over the bloody place with the movie never stopping to breathe so you get all these plot elements one after another and they never have time to be explained or be resolved. Koskov is an atrocious villain and while Whitaker is better he still falls flat due to lack of screentime and poor writing (The Final Duel with him and Bond is fantastic though), Necros is good although I feel Stamper is a much better Grant clone than Necros.

    That Felix is god awful as well, feeling more like some 80's sitcom character thrown onto a Bond set and made to be Felix, it's a joke really. My last issue is probably that a lot of stuff could be cut down because some of it feels like it's added on for the sake of expanding screentime (same issue You Only Live Twice had imo) and really you could cut them down or out entirely and nothing of value is lost (mainly lots of the Afghan scenes, they tend to drag). Oh and the Score by John Barry is insanely repetitive and there's only like 6 genuinely great tracks while the rest are forgettable or bland remixes of the fantastic title theme.

    Overall TLD is a decent movie but it's got serious flaws that hurt it and I feel the other 80's movies were just overall better handled and more enjoyable than TLD is. Thankfully Dalton got a fantastic movie that fixed pretty much every issue with TLD in the form of LTK. LTK is fantastic.


    Edit: MakeShiftPython: Nice to see the old "You're insane if you don't have X opinion" schtick

    I always rather liked Koskov as a villain and thought Whittaker was the weaker link. Necros is an awesome henchman. One of the best
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,526
    Getafix wrote: »
    Maybe it's just age?

    I'm in my early thirties, and it's definitely age for me. Too tired to do anything, can't keep up with all these newfangled whippersnappers.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    When it comes to Glen, his films gave us the best action of the series. Maybe not all of them (the Fire Engine chase from AVTAK was a dud), but most of them certainly. And while I have no qualms abotu putting Glen in my top 3 Bond directors, 5 films was enough.

    I give credit to Arthur Wooster, who’s the one that actually delivered on the action sequences. Otherwise with scenes that Glen actually did, it’s only adequate at best on his part, which depend on the the actors having the elevate the scenes above what Glen was capable of and make them work, particularly with Dalton. It’s why Dalton had a falling out with Glen because he was too much of a technical director. Glen was fine when he only did second unit stuff. I think LTK suffered the most because that needed new blood. The scene with Dario for instance where he thinks he sees Pam’s ghost is some of the most awkward direction I’ve seen in Bond.
    Daniel316 wrote: »
    Edit: MakeShiftPython: Nice to see the old "You're insane if you don't have X opinion" schtick

    I was clearly joking, if you didn’t notice the smilie at the end of that sentence. How long have you interacted on the internet?
  • Daniel316Daniel316 United States
    Posts: 210
    Right right sorry couldn't see that 1 pixel large smile emoji. As for your question: Long enough
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Glen's best work his 2nd unit on OHMSS.
  • Posts: 616
    Otherwise with scenes that Glen actually did, it’s only adequate at best on his part, which depend on the the actors having the elevate the scenes above what Glen was capable of and make them work, particularly with Dalton. It’s why Dalton had a falling out with Glen because he was too much of a technical director.

    What's your source for that bit of info?

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,034
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    Otherwise with scenes that Glen actually did, it’s only adequate at best on his part, which depend on the the actors having the elevate the scenes above what Glen was capable of and make them work, particularly with Dalton. It’s why Dalton had a falling out with Glen because he was too much of a technical director.

    What's your source for that bit of info?

    We had an interesting thread about Dalton and Glen's relationship a few years back. I think Glen mentioned them not getting on well in his autobiography. He put it down to "tiredness", I believe.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    Otherwise with scenes that Glen actually did, it’s only adequate at best on his part, which depend on the the actors having the elevate the scenes above what Glen was capable of and make them work, particularly with Dalton. It’s why Dalton had a falling out with Glen because he was too much of a technical director.

    What's your source for that bit of info?

    John Glen talked about it on his book. Dalton was at one point signed to star on the Columbus film but when the original director dropped out and Glen took over Dalton exited from it.

    Scuttlebutt is that Dalton even asked Cubby not to hire Glen back for the third film, but I never saw confirmation of that. Maybe someone here can verify that?
  • edited February 2020 Posts: 616
    The Columbus situation had to do with the Salkinds (producers) firing George Pan Cosmatos and hiring Glen and failing to inform Dalton that they planned to do so, when Dalton had it in his contract that he would be included in decisions regarding the director. Dalton was also pissed because the Salkinds didn't provide bank guarantees on his salary and never actually hired the actors he was promised. Dalton later sued the Salkinds for breach of contract and fraud:

    https://ew.com/article/1991/11/08/celebrity-law-suits/

    The Salkinds were clearly the problem there, not Glen.

    I've never heard anything about Dalton not wanting Glen involved with his third film, nor do I believe it. I think that he and Glen were stressed out during the making of LTK and snapped at each other a couple of times, and that was about the extent of it.
  • Posts: 2,896
    Here's the relevant section from Glen's autobiography:

    "Shooting rounded off in November with some night filming of a party at the Baron [de Portinova]'s house. Bond jumped from the balcony to join Pam in a romantic clinch in the swimming pool...Things ended in a bit of a sour attnosphere, unfortunately -- I was feeling a little unwell and Tim wasn't in the best of moods either. The whole thing was a bit of an ordeal and Tim and I had a bit of a slanging match across the pool. I don't know whether to put it down to tiredness at the end of the schedule or the accumulated tension of what had been an unusually arduous shoot."

    Glen also states that "During that hiatus period, shortly after the release of Licence To Kill, Cubby phoned me with some bad news. He told me that MGM/UA had decided that when the new Bond film went into production, it should have a new director at the helm."
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    Thanks for sharing that @Revelator
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,034
    Revelator wrote: »
    Here's the relevant section from Glen's autobiography:

    "Shooting rounded off in November with some night filming of a party at the Baron [de Portinova]'s house. Bond jumped from the balcony to join Pam in a romantic clinch in the swimming pool...Things ended in a bit of a sour attnosphere, unfortunately -- I was feeling a little unwell and Tim wasn't in the best of moods either. The whole thing was a bit of an ordeal and Tim and I had a bit of a slanging match across the pool. I don't know whether to put it down to tiredness at the end of the schedule or the accumulated tension of what had been an unusually arduous shoot."

    Glen also states that "During that hiatus period, shortly after the release of Licence To Kill, Cubby phoned me with some bad news. He told me that MGM/UA had decided that when the new Bond film went into production, it should have a new director at the helm."

    That's the bit. Nice one.
  • Posts: 11,425
    A shame it ended like that.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    My understanding is that Richard Maibaum was also let go, as he wasn’t MGW writing partner for the first Bond 17 draft. Maurice Binder wouldn’t have been asked back after his last two titles being deemed “lazy”. So there seemed to be a sort of “cleaning of the house” at EON after LTK underperformed. Perhaps those were ordered by MGM/UA as well.
  • edited February 2020 Posts: 2,896
    Getafix wrote: »
    A shame it ended like that.

    Yes, on all counts. That is the only blow-up Glen mentions having with Dalton, and his autobiography is a candid one. He also knew he was a lucky man, and I doubt anyone else will have the honor of directing five Bond films. His middle film suffers from creative exhaustion (as did the series by that point), but Dalton's entrance proved revitalizing, and I wouldn't have minded a third Glen/Dalton outing, though preferably with a higher budget.

    It's true that Glen's handling of actors could be awkward, but I don't find it worse than Lewis Gilbert's. Makeshiftpylon rightfully gives much-deserved credit to Arthur Wooster, but it should also be acknowledged that Glen was heavily involved in devising, setting up, and supervising the action sequences. His experience directing the second-unit in OHMSS (which shows he was an excellent action director) undoubtedly helped him get the best out of Wooster and the other second units. He was a very hands-on director, probably more so than many of his successors.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    That’s pretty much where Glen’s talent lies on his being reliable with action material. But when it came to character focused stuff it’s not as strong as it could be IMO, with the exception of TLD which is a very solid entry overall in all departments. Ultimately I agree with the decision to look for a different director after LTK. Five films is a hell of a run, but new blood was needed.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Hmmm. Plenty of character and dramatic scenes I can think of from the Glen films that are awesome IMO.
  • Getafix wrote: »
    Hmmm. Plenty of character and dramatic scenes I can think of from the Glen films that are awesome IMO.

    FYEO, TLD and LTK immediately come to mind in that regard.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    Getafix wrote: »
    Hmmm. Plenty of character and dramatic scenes I can think of from the Glen films that are awesome IMO.

    Agreed. The scene where Bond has Loque at his mercy in FYEO is brilliantly directed.

    As is the scene between Bond and Orloff on the train in OP.

    Just two examples (and there are many others) that show his best work wasn't just 'second unit on OHMSS' which IMO is just insulting.

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,034
    Bond confronting Pushkin in his hotel room is one of the best scenes in the series, for my money.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited February 2020 Posts: 8,025
    Getafix wrote: »
    Hmmm. Plenty of character and dramatic scenes I can think of from the Glen films that are awesome IMO.
    Just two examples (and there are many others) that show his best work wasn't just 'second unit on OHMSS' which IMO is just insulting.

    I may be harsh, but I can’t deny how naff some of his dramatic scenes are like when Moore forces himself on Octopussy “you’re right, we are two of a kind”, with Barry’s music trying to make something out of it.

    But the Orlov scene works, which I’d put more on Moore and Berkoff elevating the moment with their acting. The strongest compliment I can give to Glen is that as uninteresting his camerawork is he can at least get his actors to rise to the occasion to make the scenes work even, if though he’s not always successful (”I love James SOO MUCH”).

    But again, when stuff like Dario thinking he’s seeing an angel happens I have to call it what it is: inept.
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    Posts: 3,497
    Octopussy is of course woefully underrated. ;)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    OP is one of the better Moore entries in terms of plot. FYEO has strong stuff but it always structurally felt like two films meshed together, obviously due to having two Fleming stories combined. When Loque dies it feels like a legitimate climax for a film, but then there’s an hour left to do more stuff.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    Octopussy is of course woefully underrated. ;)

    Well, thank you! ;)
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    Posts: 3,497
    Octopussy wrote: »
    JamesCraig wrote: »
    Octopussy is of course woefully underrated. ;)

    Well, thank you! ;)

    My pleasure. :))
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    Bond confronting Pushkin in his hotel room is one of the best scenes in the series, for my money.

    Definitely. One of my favourite Bond scenes of the series.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    edited February 2020 Posts: 1,081
    Bond confronting Pushkin in his hotel room is one of the best scenes in the series, for my money.

    Definitely. One of my favourite Bond scenes of the series.

    +1

    Dalton's intensity is amazing here. You genuinely believe he could be an assassin.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Bond confronting Pushkin in his hotel room is one of the best scenes in the series, for my money.

    The entire first hour or so of TLD is arguably the best bit of cinematic Bond in the series. Or up there anyway.

    The Glen bashing on here is ridiculous.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    Getafix wrote: »
    Bond confronting Pushkin in his hotel room is one of the best scenes in the series, for my money.

    The entire first hour or so of TLD is arguably the best bit of cinematic Bond in the series. Or up there anyway.

    The Glen bashing on here is ridiculous.

    Give me Glen over Tamahouri or Mendes anyday of the week.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Definitely
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