NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - Discuss Hans Zimmer's Score

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  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited December 2019 Posts: 8,009
    Univex wrote: »
    You're confusing the Bond "sound", a phrase that I didn't use, with something I've been stressing considerably in my comments; it's possible for a composer to make an unmistakably Bond score while not copying Barry's sound. That is what Martin did. I don't feel he copied Barry sonically at all, but you seem to. That is possibly where your confusion lies. The insistence on only comparing it to Barry's previous six only made it worse. That was something you insisted on, not me. If you're confused, have a read back to what was originally being said before the conversation was muddied.

    Hamlisch also managed it. I don't particularly like that score, but a lot of it is unmistakably Bond. Same goes for Conti. I didn't like the disco era of scoring, but the structure of the scores was the same as Barry's.

    So no, not style.

    Structure. A word that was repeatedly stressed. Hope this clears it up for you.

    Thank you for explaining it far better than I did. That was exactly what I was aiming to say. Well done.

    Always a pleasure, @Univex

    I think there's a really narrow view on both sides of what Bond should sound like. There's a perfectly flexible approach in the middle, one that other composers have already availed of in the series' history already. I don't see it as a simple case of either copying Barry's "sound" or not. There's more to it than that. It wasn't solely Barry's sound that made the Bond scores iconic to many, it was the sound coupled with a smart structure that, when it worked at its best, complimented a wonderful title song and made it stand out from the run of the mill soundtracks of its peers. A new potential composer can easily bring a new sound to that structure and make it seem Bondian, like Martin did. Like Hamlisch did. Like Conti did. Like Arnold (to many, at least) did.

    It's fine to love the Barry sound. I love it too and will always welcome it when it's done well. I appreciate that there are some who are concrete in their association of it with Bond, as was I growing up. But I think Barry's true Bond legacy is that other thing......structure.

    Which is why I wasn't exactly against Romer when he was hired. I had faith that he could bring his own thing to NTTD while it would remain true to the series.

    But I also have faith in the filmmaker's decisions. And if they've decided to boot him, then they have their reasons.
    Very true.

    But I think Beasts of No Nation and Maniac are very different from a Bond score. Perhaps, Fukunaga agreed with Eon. Maybe he wanted Romer because of his connection and then realised it wasn't a fit for NTTD.

    It happens. Denis Villenueve realised that his regular composer Johan Johannson wasn't right for Blade Runner till late. Perhaps the producers gave him a nudge in realising that.

    I think what you're saying is definitely possible but keep in mind, just because a director says he loved the changes suggested by a producer, doesn't always mean he's telling the truth.

    Most likely, Cary and EON agreed on most of the movie's creative decisions and when they just didn't like the score, he figured it wasn't a hill worth dying on.

    Keep in mind, his IT project blew up due to frequent disagreements with the producers, and I think he realized that this was his biggest and possibly last shot at a major movie career.

    An interesting way of looking at it. You're right, we'll never know for sure. But this is certainly a feasible scenario. As talented as Fukanaga is (and he really is), I'm sure the IT situation was a learning curve for him.


  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited December 2019 Posts: 8,000
    I have zero expectations that a song will be integrated in the score like it used to between 1963-1987. Since then it’s not been much of a priority by EON aside from a few oddities like TWINE and CR.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 7,889
    But then, who knows if Cary was happy wit what Romer presented? He may have felt very conflicted.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 12,914
    I have zero expectations that a song will be integrated in the score like it used to between 1963-1987. Since then it’s not been much of a priority by EON aside from a few oddities like TWINE and CR.
    And the SP outright instrumental of "Writing's on the Wall" mid-film. But not exactly integrated through the score as you said, @MakeshiftPython.

    There is also the QOS cross-over of "You Know My Name" and the similar sounding melody of the David Arnold song "No Good About Goodbye" that is strung through the soundtrack.

    I don't expect the song integration into the score either based on the recent change-ups, of course it's always welcome.

    @talos7, it will be interesting if the background maneuverings are revealed eventually. Including demo tracks from Dan Romer and any other contenders of course.

  • edited December 2019 Posts: 3,273
    mtm wrote: »
    I’m talking about a Connery impersonation though. You seriously think that would be a way to move this series forward!? The lead raising his eyebrow, saying ‘but of course’ and ‘surely’ all the time with a sexy Scottish speech impediment? You don’t think that would be stale and a terrible self parody? You’re obviously welcome to think that but I’m just a bit... I don’t get it. It can only be worse than someone doing their own best rather than trying to copy someone else’s.

    You are taking this too literally. An actor can have similar attributes to Connery without going the full Scottish impersonation parody. Lazenby was similar in persona to Connery - tough looking, tall, dark hair, dark eyes, deep voice. Someone who looks physically imposing, threatening, a person you wouldn't want to mess with in real life.

    Even Idris Elba reminds me of certain attributes to Connery, and he is a different skin colour.

    It is more to do with looking for an actor that embodies the same style that Connery had, including the looks too. And this would typically be - tall, dark eyes, dark hair, deep voice, tough looking, charismatic, sexy. Typical alpha male attributes that an actor carries with him off screen as well as on screen.
  • Posts: 3,273
    mtm wrote: »
    I’m just not going to claim you’re not a Bond fan because we have different opinions. That was kind of the point; it’s silly and it’s just there to bait an argument.

    It was a meant as a joke, but you obviously took it literally, whereas others recognised I was being humorous. Next time I'll put a smiley or wink after such a comment, in case it gets misinterpreted again...

    ;)
  • Posts: 3,273
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    If Romer is indeed done, does this actually mean (if true; and I think it is based on all the info coming in), that no one has settled on the theme song and who will be performing????

    I think they’re probably not very related. If they have got a singer they’ll be sticking with them. I guess if the score is delivered later than usual there may be more of a chance that the song melody will be incorporated into the score, for those who like that.

    Here I agree with you. Since Babs took over the reigns, composer and singer being tied has becoming increasingly less important for EON. Arnold has tried to do this in the past, usually with discarded songs that are lucky if they end up on end credits, but occasionally managed to land the gig to write the main song too.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    mtm wrote: »
    I’m just not going to claim you’re not a Bond fan because we have different opinions. That was kind of the point; it’s silly and it’s just there to bait an argument.

    It was a meant as a joke, but you obviously took it literally, whereas others recognised I was being humorous. Next time I'll put a smiley or wink after such a comment, in case it gets misinterpreted again...

    ;)
    That’s it! Now you’ve gone TOOOOOO far!!!
  • Posts: 3,273
    Minion wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I’m just not going to claim you’re not a Bond fan because we have different opinions. That was kind of the point; it’s silly and it’s just there to bait an argument.

    It was a meant as a joke, but you obviously took it literally, whereas others recognised I was being humorous. Next time I'll put a smiley or wink after such a comment, in case it gets misinterpreted again...

    ;)
    That’s it! Now you’ve gone TOOOOOO far!!!

    ;))
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited December 2019 Posts: 4,247
    Some of Newman's tracks even contain Zimmer's style. E.g 'Brave New World', 'The Moors', Kill Them First, She's Mine, Snow Plane & Detonation. These days composers can't just score an action film without channeling a bit of Zimmer. So having Zimmer compose a Bond film is perfect. I even remember watching a video of all Bond composers....except Thomas Newman. George Martin was talking about working with Director Guy Hamilton. Martin praised the modern day composing & said Zimmer is the toast of Hollywood & Arnold is the toast of England. If Arnold returns, that's perfect. if they get Hurwitz, perfect....but if they can't get them, I very much prefer Zimmer & his RCP Composers.
  • Posts: 1,693
    I'm sure someone on here knows exactly what's up with all this and is not saying a word. That's the way it usually works.
  • Posts: 4,023
    I wonder how far Romer got with scoring before being removed.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,759
    Not very keen on the Zimmer news. I find his music to be rather bombastic mostly and with exception of historical epics I'm usually not very into bombastic music.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 2019 Posts: 14,861
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    If Romer is indeed done, does this actually mean (if true; and I think it is based on all the info coming in), that no one has settled on the theme song and who will be performing????

    I think they’re probably not very related. If they have got a singer they’ll be sticking with them. I guess if the score is delivered later than usual there may be more of a chance that the song melody will be incorporated into the score, for those who like that.

    You don't think the composer and main song is related, @mtm?

    Doubtful. Newman didn’t seem to have much or any input into Adele/Radiohead/Smith; Arnold only slightly into White and I doubt he picked him. Cornell is the exception, and then before that there was Madonna... and now we’ve gone back nearly twenty years.
    Do you think the composer and main song are related?
  • edited December 2019 Posts: 3,164
    Oof... hmm.

    Anyway, someone on Zimmer's site appears to be confidently claiming Wallfisch has bagged it, with Zimmer's involvement supposedly unclear.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 2019 Posts: 14,861
    Whatever way you want to read it, buddy. That's entirely on you. No condescension here, only nitpicking on the use of an irrevelant hypothetical to prove a point. ;)

    When you say "I appreciate you sticking to your guns though" it feels very much a patronising head-pat: 'no you're wrong you silly little thing, but well done you for trying'. Hope that clears it up for you ;)

    I also wouldn't say it's hypothetical that Barry would give his scores a flavour of the plot of the movie: YOLT is very Far East-tinged in many places.

    You're confusing the Bond "sound", a phrase that I didn't use, with something I've been stressing considerably in my comments; it's possible for a composer to make an unmistakably Bond score while not copying Barry's sound.

    My original point was that he "got as close as we’ve seen to trying to do a Barry score"- I didn't say he had copied him.
    Bond score/Barry sound: in this context there's not much difference. In 1973 there was only the Barry sound when it came to Bond- I don't think George Martin redefined it. Other composers after him did (including Barry himself of course in the 70s and 80s) but here he's very much following the template set up by Barry and Barry alone, adding in a fashionable New Yorky funk and soul taste to suit the movie's plot, and very much taking the lead from McCartney's song (which as a side issue, is probably the most important a song composer has been to the film's score).
    As per my original point, I don't think we've had another composer following Barry's lead quite as closely as he did.


    That is what Martin did. I don't feel he copied Barry sonically at all, but you seem to. That is possibly where your confusion lies. The insistence on only comparing it to Barry's previous six only made it worse. That was something you insisted on, not me. If you're confused, have a read back to what was originally being said before the conversation was muddied.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. In 1972 there were seven James Bond scores you could listen to: if you're going to make an 'unmistakably Bond score' then you're going to draw a bit of inspiration from those. Are you saying he changed it into something new?
    Hamlisch also managed it. I don't particularly like that score, but a lot of it is unmistakably Bond. Same goes for Conti. I didn't like the disco era of scoring, but the structure of the scores was the same as Barry's.

    They did manage it, but you'd really not say that LALD is closer in instrumentation, style, melody to a Barry score than TSWLM? Hamlisch himself dips into a little Barry with the Liparus cue (it even has a little bit of Barry-ish discordance) but that's really the extent of it, giving the rest of the film his own interpretation. I'd say that Martin's interpretation (and I don't want to imply he was rubbish: he was clearly a bit of a genius) was to take the Barry sound, add in a soul and funk flavour, and use a lot of McCartney's song. Later composers did a lot more of their own thing, possibly even because Barry had started to move it away from the 60s style and it had opened up.
    Structure. A word that was repeatedly stressed. Hope this clears it up for you.

    Gee thanks for explaining that in a non-condescending way :D

    I think actually structure is one way he does deviate from Barry a little more. It's much less romantic than a lot of Barry's scores and he introduces his own secondary theme which runs throughout the film (such as in 'Bond to New York') which he uses for a variety of types of scene, not just action or romance, as Barry would use his themes.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    ggl007 wrote: »

    Thanks for that. Lots of rumours swirling around here! If the MI6 report was the one that mentioned Arnold doing Rhythm Section isn't it also the one that mentioned Romer's next film too? Pinches of salt all round! :)
  • ggl007ggl007 www.archivo007.com Spain, España
    Posts: 2,535
    mtm wrote: »
    Thanks for that. Lots of rumours swirling around here! If the MI6 report was the one that mentioned Arnold doing Rhythm Section isn't it also the one that mentioned Romer's next film too? Pinches of salt all round! :)

    No, Wendy's info is on this web: http://filmmusicreporter.com/2019/12/25/dan-romer-scoring-benh-zeitlins-wendy/

    No mention of NTTD...
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    Like Newman, Wendy is the sort of film Romer shines. Every composer have their Comfort Zones. Not that they're bad composers. Just like Zimmer won't enjoy working on Romantic Comedies....but strangely enough, Zimmer sublimely scored The Holiday(2006).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 2019 Posts: 14,861
    ggl007 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Thanks for that. Lots of rumours swirling around here! If the MI6 report was the one that mentioned Arnold doing Rhythm Section isn't it also the one that mentioned Romer's next film too? Pinches of salt all round! :)

    No, Wendy's info is on this web: http://filmmusicreporter.com/2019/12/25/dan-romer-scoring-benh-zeitlins-wendy/

    No mention of NTTD...

    Ah thanks. I guess it's possible that the website missed that off: it'd be more interesting to see the actual press release they took it from.

    Still, it is interesting there's no mention of NTTD on his own website: http://danromer.com/
    Obviously they might not have updated it yet, but I feel like you would, wouldn't you? I had a quick look on the Wayback Machine and as far as I can tell it was never on there.
  • antovolk wrote: »
    Oof... hmm.

    Anyway, someone on Zimmer's site appears to be confidently claiming Wallfisch has bagged it, with Zimmer's involvement supposedly unclear.

    Is it reliable?

    I do like Benjamin Wallfisch.





  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    I’d quite pleased with Wallfisch and Zimmer.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    matt_u wrote: »
    I’d quite pleased with Wallfisch and Zimmer.

    Yeah it would be striking and confident, and different to what we've had before, which I'd be happy with.
  • Posts: 5,767
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    When Zimmer composed The Lone Ranger we heard Ennio morricone's style & Gioachino Rossini's William Tell's Overture from the Old lone ranger TV series in it. Now, if He composes Bond we can at least expect him to follow Barry's style....even if Zimmer maintains his own style. coz as we heard from Blade Runner 2049, he still retained Vangelis' style.
    WHAT?? There is as much Vangelis in BR 2049 as there is Barry in LTK.

  • Posts: 5,767
    Me too!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    I've only seen it once, but doesn't it end with a nice Vangelis reprise?
  • Posts: 3,164
    mtm wrote: »
    I've only seen it once, but doesn't it end with a nice Vangelis reprise?

    Indeed it does. Part of the supposed reason Wallfisch and Zimmer did Blade Runner was precisely to bring the score closer to Vangelis' work and in interviews they definitely spoke about the importance of honouring that musical legacy and the steps they have taken to achieve that (eg using the same synthesisers etc). And Bond of course faces a similar conundrum with every film...maybe, if Wallfisch is indeed scoring, 2049 was the reference point.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited December 2019 Posts: 4,247
    boldfinger wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    When Zimmer composed The Lone Ranger we heard Ennio morricone's style & Gioachino Rossini's William Tell's Overture from the Old lone ranger TV series in it. Now, if He composes Bond we can at least expect him to follow Barry's style....even if Zimmer maintains his own style. coz as we heard from Blade Runner 2049, he still retained Vangelis' style.
    WHAT?? There is as much Vangelis in BR 2049 as there is Barry in LTK.

    Yeah, of course...that's my point. Zimmer paid Homage to Vangelis in Blade Runner 2049....but Michael Kamen's score in LTK sounding like Barry?....Ummmm, I don't know...am not too sure it does. I believe fans really missed Barry in LTK. After Barry delivered one of the best Bond scores in TLD.
  • Posts: 5,767
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    If Zimmer or any RCP composer scores NTTD, it's likely going to sound like Pfeifer Broz's theme for the Casino Royale trailer. It even contains a choir rendition of the Bond theme in some parts, it's bombastic....but it still sounds like Bond & Barry. I don't think Zimmer's style is too far from it to be honest.
    Like a rubber doll is not far from a human being.

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