Is Skyfall losing its gloss and appeal ?

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  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,459
    For me, as I stated pages ago I think, Skyfall has lost none of its appeal. It is definitely one of the best Bond films ever made.
    We can all have varying opinions, and I am not trying to persuade anybody who does not like it; to each his own. But I also feel no need to defend it. It is a very, very good film and a great Bond film.
    PachitoPistoles worded things more strongly than I would (for me, you can say whatever like, pretty much, and still be a Bond fan if you love the films in general) , but I know where he is coming from. It is an excellent Bond film.
  • I wouldn't say it's lost any of it's gloss or appeal. I still think it's absolutely wonderful. However, one has to admit that the story isn't really very complicated is it? It is actually pretty straightforward. It's just done extremely well.
  • edited March 2014 Posts: 2,015
    The exploding pen line can be heard as a direct criticism of GE's Bond, no ? If the next movies still are far away from the "M briefing + mission" format, and contains lines like Blofeld telling Bond after a bloody meeting with German sheperds "I like dogs, they're more clever than cats", SF may be considered as the beginning of the "old Bond bashing" :) As I wrote several times before, SF's future appeal depends a lot on the next ones done by the same team, IMO...
  • Posts: 2,483
    ChickenStu wrote:
    I wouldn't say it's lost any of it's gloss or appeal. I still think it's absolutely wonderful. However, one has to admit that the story isn't really very complicated is it? It is actually pretty straightforward. It's just done extremely well.

    Why should a story be complicated? I prefer the linearity of TB and SF to the involutions of TLD and OP any day.

  • ChickenStu wrote:
    I wouldn't say it's lost any of it's gloss or appeal. I still think it's absolutely wonderful. However, one has to admit that the story isn't really very complicated is it? It is actually pretty straightforward. It's just done extremely well.

    Why should a story be complicated? I prefer the linearity of TB and SF to the involutions of TLD and OP any day.

    Didn't say it had to be. I was just making an observation.
  • SF has got more interesting to me, because it is all about subtext, albeit at the expense of a logical narrative. It is all about the UK's imperialism and shoddy attitude to the natives coming home to roost, in the form of Rodriguez.

    Could you elaborate on this. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

    It came to me when thinking of the early SF draft, where the pts was set in India, but it got canned. That made more sense, as the idea was to have Bond walk along the top of the train, with the natives hanging off the sides of the train like barnacles. That would have made the scene less like the one in OP imo, and would have been more interesting because both fighters could utilise anything they could grab from said locals to use in the fight. Bond does show a rather contemptuous attitude to the locals in the scene anyway when he is driving around with Eve, which contrasts with this overt politeness when picking his way through a London Tube train later, and I reckon it was written to highlight this: that Bond is rude to foreigners but all nice back home. But it gets lost in the shuffle cos a) It was moved to Turkey, which has no real colonial associations with the UK and b) there are no natives hanging off the train, it's an Indian thing (or was, the Govt objected to the scene calling it national stereotyping).

    And the India setting would have helped with the whole Bond reborn/reincarnation thing which they were maybe aiming for, it's a bit lost set in Turkey, but it could also hint at how the UK has reinvented itself since imperial times, esp having a black Moneypenny (who shot at Bond, which he later forgives with such magnanimity, might also play into the theme).

    Of course, Rodgriguez well I can't remember his backstory in full, but it seems if I recall all about his sense of betrayal by 'mother' ie the motherland, which seems mirrored by a good many attitudes of former colonies, esp in Africa.

    M's windbag poetry recital during the hearing is a Colonel Blimp moment - the old guard doesn't realise that old traditions just don't hold up any more and the world has changed, as Rodgriguez heads down the Mall to take her out. To me it does recall the notorious time head of the Met Ian Blair reacts to a so-called terrorist attack on the Tube that was thwarted, not even being informed by his subordinates that the 'terrorist' was a Brazilian minding his own business, because his staff were intimidated by their boss.

    The problem is, for me, that the director doesn't seem too aware of this or if he is it makes Bond -and M - seem even more unsympathetic.
  • Posts: 2,483
    SF has got more interesting to me, because it is all about subtext, albeit at the expense of a logical narrative. It is all about the UK's imperialism and shoddy attitude to the natives coming home to roost, in the form of Rodriguez.

    Could you elaborate on this. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

    It came to me when thinking of the early SF draft, where the pts was set in India, but it got canned. That made more sense, as the idea was to have Bond walk along the top of the train, with the natives hanging off the sides of the train like barnacles. That would have made the scene less like the one in OP imo, and would have been more interesting because both fighters could utilise anything they could grab from said locals to use in the fight. Bond does show a rather contemptuous attitude to the locals in the scene anyway when he is driving around with Eve, which contrasts with this overt politeness when picking his way through a London Tube train later, and I reckon it was written to highlight this: that Bond is rude to foreigners but all nice back home. But it gets lost in the shuffle cos a) It was moved to Turkey, which has no real colonial associations with the UK and b) there are no natives hanging off the train, it's an Indian thing (or was, the Govt objected to the scene calling it national stereotyping).

    And the India setting would have helped with the whole Bond reborn/reincarnation thing which they were maybe aiming for, it's a bit lost set in Turkey, but it could also hint at how the UK has reinvented itself since imperial times, esp having a black Moneypenny (who shot at Bond, which he later forgives with such magnanimity, might also play into the theme).

    Of course, Rodgriguez well I can't remember his backstory in full, but it seems if I recall all about his sense of betrayal by 'mother' ie the motherland, which seems mirrored by a good many attitudes of former colonies, esp in Africa.

    M's windbag poetry recital during the hearing is a Colonel Blimp moment - the old guard doesn't realise that old traditions just don't hold up any more and the world has changed, as Rodgriguez heads down the Mall to take her out. To me it does recall the notorious time head of the Met Ian Blair reacts to a so-called terrorist attack on the Tube that was thwarted, not even being informed by his subordinates that the 'terrorist' was a Brazilian minding his own business, because his staff were intimidated by their boss.

    The problem is, for me, that the director doesn't seem too aware of this or if he is it makes Bond -and M - seem even more unsympathetic.

    That's a stretch. Bond evinces no "attitude" at all.

  • Posts: 2,483
    SF has got more interesting to me, because it is all about subtext, albeit at the expense of a logical narrative. It is all about the UK's imperialism and shoddy attitude to the natives coming home to roost, in the form of Rodriguez.

    Could you elaborate on this. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

    It came to me when thinking of the early SF draft, where the pts was set in India, but it got canned. That made more sense, as the idea was to have Bond walk along the top of the train, with the natives hanging off the sides of the train like barnacles. That would have made the scene less like the one in OP imo, and would have been more interesting because both fighters could utilise anything they could grab from said locals to use in the fight. Bond does show a rather contemptuous attitude to the locals in the scene anyway when he is driving around with Eve, which contrasts with this overt politeness when picking his way through a London Tube train later, and I reckon it was written to highlight this: that Bond is rude to foreigners but all nice back home. But it gets lost in the shuffle cos a) It was moved to Turkey, which has no real colonial associations with the UK and b) there are no natives hanging off the train, it's an Indian thing (or was, the Govt objected to the scene calling it national stereotyping).

    And the India setting would have helped with the whole Bond reborn/reincarnation thing which they were maybe aiming for, it's a bit lost set in Turkey, but it could also hint at how the UK has reinvented itself since imperial times, esp having a black Moneypenny (who shot at Bond, which he later forgives with such magnanimity, might also play into the theme).

    Of course, Rodgriguez well I can't remember his backstory in full, but it seems if I recall all about his sense of betrayal by 'mother' ie the motherland, which seems mirrored by a good many attitudes of former colonies, esp in Africa.

    M's windbag poetry recital during the hearing is a Colonel Blimp moment - the old guard doesn't realise that old traditions just don't hold up any more and the world has changed, as Rodgriguez heads down the Mall to take her out. To me it does recall the notorious time head of the Met Ian Blair reacts to a so-called terrorist attack on the Tube that was thwarted, not even being informed by his subordinates that the 'terrorist' was a Brazilian minding his own business, because his staff were intimidated by their boss.

    The problem is, for me, that the director doesn't seem too aware of this or if he is it makes Bond -and M - seem even more unsympathetic.

    Another stretch. Silva/Rodriguez feels betrayed by M, or, at a stretch, the organization she controls.

  • Posts: 2,483
    SF has got more interesting to me, because it is all about subtext, albeit at the expense of a logical narrative. It is all about the UK's imperialism and shoddy attitude to the natives coming home to roost, in the form of Rodriguez.

    Could you elaborate on this. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

    It came to me when thinking of the early SF draft, where the pts was set in India, but it got canned. That made more sense, as the idea was to have Bond walk along the top of the train, with the natives hanging off the sides of the train like barnacles. That would have made the scene less like the one in OP imo, and would have been more interesting because both fighters could utilise anything they could grab from said locals to use in the fight. Bond does show a rather contemptuous attitude to the locals in the scene anyway when he is driving around with Eve, which contrasts with this overt politeness when picking his way through a London Tube train later, and I reckon it was written to highlight this: that Bond is rude to foreigners but all nice back home. But it gets lost in the shuffle cos a) It was moved to Turkey, which has no real colonial associations with the UK and b) there are no natives hanging off the train, it's an Indian thing (or was, the Govt objected to the scene calling it national stereotyping).

    And the India setting would have helped with the whole Bond reborn/reincarnation thing which they were maybe aiming for, it's a bit lost set in Turkey, but it could also hint at how the UK has reinvented itself since imperial times, esp having a black Moneypenny (who shot at Bond, which he later forgives with such magnanimity, might also play into the theme).

    Of course, Rodgriguez well I can't remember his backstory in full, but it seems if I recall all about his sense of betrayal by 'mother' ie the motherland, which seems mirrored by a good many attitudes of former colonies, esp in Africa.

    M's windbag poetry recital during the hearing is a Colonel Blimp moment - the old guard doesn't realise that old traditions just don't hold up any more and the world has changed, as Rodgriguez heads down the Mall to take her out. To me it does recall the notorious time head of the Met Ian Blair reacts to a so-called terrorist attack on the Tube that was thwarted, not even being informed by his subordinates that the 'terrorist' was a Brazilian minding his own business, because his staff were intimidated by their boss.

    The problem is, for me, that the director doesn't seem too aware of this or if he is it makes Bond -and M - seem even more unsympathetic.

    Nonsense. There is nothing remotely ironical about the recitation. SF is the most unabashedly patriotic Bond film ever made, and is the very antithesis of the anguished postcolonialism that runs through the vast majority of pop culture schlock dealing with geopolitics.

  • Javier Bardem's career wasn't helped much by his role, imo.
  • SandySandy Somewhere in Europe
    Posts: 4,012
    Javier Bardem's career wasn't helped much by his role, imo.

    Because everybody knows an Oscar nomination basically kills an actors career /:)
  • Posts: 7,653
    Javier Bardem's career wasn't helped much by his role, imo.

    Because his villain was not that great after a very promesing beginning?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    SF is the most unabashedly patriotic Bond film ever made, and is the very antithesis of the anguished postcolonialism that runs through the vast majority of pop culture schlock dealing with geopolitics.
    Wow, dude, are you a professor or something? :-O
    Seriously, for the record I actually agree here.
  • Sandy wrote:
    Javier Bardem's career wasn't helped much by his role, imo.

    Because everybody knows an Oscar nomination basically kills an actors career /:)

    That's kinda true...Joaquin Phoenix got nominated though, exposed the truth that Oscars are bullshit, and yet got acclaimed for Her...but that's only one actor.

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    talos7 wrote:
    Movies are often like love affairs; They begin with infatuation; it's a time of intoxicating excitement. As time passes a period of disillusion sets in; one sees the imperfections and shortcomings. Then, over time, if it really is a good film, a deeper appreciation sets in that accepts what's not perfect while focusing on the strengths.

    I went through this with Skyfall and it is in my top 10: but not my true love; that honor still goes to Casino Royale.

    This is a very good comparison, @talos7. SF is one of the six best Bond films made imo, and to answer the op, it has not lost its appeal.
  • Yeah, he has attitude. Nearly crashes his car into Turkish locals, no consideration at all, contrast with polite 'Excuse me' schtick on the London Tube.

    The direction is all British patriotism but the writing isn't - suggesting the writer and director aren't on the same page.

    But I admit I am looking at the subtext, which can't be proved.
  • Posts: 2,483
    chrisisall wrote:
    SF is the most unabashedly patriotic Bond film ever made, and is the very antithesis of the anguished postcolonialism that runs through the vast majority of pop culture schlock dealing with geopolitics.
    Wow, dude, are you a professor or something? :-O
    Seriously, for the record I actually agree here.

    Something like that.

  • Posts: 107
    Skyfall has it's faults but the quality is still way above any Brosnan Bond.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    Chang wrote:
    Skyfall has it's faults but the quality is still way above any Brosnan Bond.
    Wha-?
    *chokes, spills soda falls off chair*
    Umm, oooookaaaay.
  • Chang wrote:
    Skyfall has it's faults but the quality is still way above any Brosnan Bond.
    Well they certainly thought it was, the exploding pen line can be so easily perceived as an attack on Goldeneye they must somehow agree with it ! What next, a ski chase which begins with Bond looking for one a second at a cello case before muttering "silly" and going for some real skis ? :)
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Chang wrote:
    Skyfall has it's faults but the quality is still way above any Brosnan Bond.
    Well they certainly thought it was, the exploding pen line can be so easily perceived as an attack on Goldeneye they must somehow agree with it ! What next, a ski chase which begins with Bond looking for one a second at a cello case before muttering "silly" and going for some real skis ? :)

    I don't perceive the exploding pen line as Skyfall ostracizing Goldeneye at all; far from it in fact. All the references are done with reverential tribute, not hard-handed contempt. Plus, exploding pens were no doubt a real life espionage tool, so it connects it to our little world of reality too. Weirder things have happened.
  • edited March 2014 Posts: 2,015
    Hm, in the same scene, a LTK gadget is given to Bond as something valuable (the palm reader), and a line is said by Q to explain Bond should not expect a GE gadget (the exploding pen) ? Am I the only one to hear "Well, after LTK we went into GE but that was a mistake, let's continue from where LTK went, but watch out, this time the supporting character really will die :)" ? Or well, maybe, it's even more about a Dalton gadget vs a Brosnan gadget here...
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Hm, in the same scene, a LTK gadget is given to Bond as something valuable (the palm reader), and a line is said by Q to explain Bond should not expect a GE gadget (the exploding pen) ? Am I the only one to hear "Well, after LTK we went into GE but that was a mistake, let's continue from where LTK went, but watch out, this time the supporting character really will die :)" ? Or well, maybe, it's even more about a Dalton gadget vs a Brosnan gadget here...

    Or maybe you're looking too much into a fun little quip meant to make the fans grin. Yeah, let's go with that...
  • Or maybe you're looking too much into a fun little quip meant to make the fans grin. Yeah, let's go with that...
    Well, there's only a few seconds between the LTK gadget reference (deemed as "part of the new Bond") and the GE gadget reference (deemed as "part of the old Bond"), and you really think this is reading too much in it ? Gee, where's the depth of the script of SF then if even those who like it think what happens in it is semi-random and should not be analyzed ? :)
  • Posts: 2,483
    Chang wrote:
    Skyfall has it's faults but the quality is still way above any Brosnan Bond.

    I've actually got GE ranked one spot above SF, but I admit that may be a personal eccentricity.
  • Posts: 2,483
    Chang wrote:
    Skyfall has it's faults but the quality is still way above any Brosnan Bond.
    Well they certainly thought it was, the exploding pen line can be so easily perceived as an attack on Goldeneye they must somehow agree with it ! What next, a ski chase which begins with Bond looking for one a second at a cello case before muttering "silly" and going for some real skis ? :)

    I don't perceive the exploding pen line as Skyfall ostracizing Goldeneye at all; far from it in fact. All the references are done with reverential tribute, not hard-handed contempt. Plus, exploding pens were no doubt a real life espionage tool, so it connects it to our little world of reality too. Weirder things have happened.

    Agreed, entirely. Lots of people are guilty of reading far too much--and often what they wish to see--into SF.

  • Posts: 2,483
    Hm, in the same scene, a LTK gadget is given to Bond as something valuable (the palm reader), and a line is said by Q to explain Bond should not expect a GE gadget (the exploding pen) ? Am I the only one to hear "Well, after LTK we went into GE but that was a mistake, let's continue from where LTK went, but watch out, this time the supporting character really will die :)" ? Or well, maybe, it's even more about a Dalton gadget vs a Brosnan gadget here...

    Or maybe you're looking too much into a fun little quip meant to make the fans grin. Yeah, let's go with that...

    Again, precisely.
  • Posts: 2,483
    Or maybe you're looking too much into a fun little quip meant to make the fans grin. Yeah, let's go with that...
    Well, there's only a few seconds between the LTK gadget reference (deemed as "part of the new Bond") and the GE gadget reference (deemed as "part of the old Bond"), and you really think this is reading too much in it ? Gee, where's the depth of the script of SF then if even those who like it think what happens in it is semi-random and should not be analyzed ? :)

    Clearly, the makers of SF were declaring that Bond was going back to basics, but that is hardly the same thing as an attack on what has gone before. Why would Bond films slate other Bond films? Makes no sense whatsoever.

  • edited March 2014 Posts: 2,015
    But would you at least agree that LTK is then deemed part of the "back to basics" that is SF with this strong gadget reference (and GF as well with the radio, one could say), while GE is not, with the quip to dismiss its gadget ? None of the gadgets in this sequence, whether shown or talked about, are original, they all allude to past movies. How can one think here that the choices are random and not meaningful ?

    About slating references being impossible, look at the beginning of FYEO for instance.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,691
    Why would Bond films slate other Bond films? Makes no sense whatsoever.
    Allow me to hyperanalyze:
    Bond's successful employment of the DB5 in SF was meant to denigrate GF where Bond used it in botched escape attempt.
    The destruction of MI6 was meant to dump on TWINE. This is how you REALLY blow s**t up you morons.
    Bond being shot off the train slagged on TB, where Bond getting shot was nothing comparatively.
    SF's Q being played by a gay chap was clearly making fun of Desmond's Q, who never got laid in a single movie.
    Bond's work out scenes are obviously pissing all over Connery & Moore's later films for them being all fat & out of shape.
    Severine's murder is knocking every silly Bond movie in which Bond ends up with the girl.

    Wow, Skyfall seems to have been specifically DESIGNED to give the finger to most previous movies, eh?
    ;)
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