Bond movie ranking (Simple list, no details)

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  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited October 2021 Posts: 5,869
    01) Skyfall
    02) Casino Royale
    03) Goldeneye
    04) Thunderball
    05) On Her Majesty’s Secret Service
    06) From Russia With Love
    07) The World Is Not Enough
    08) Dr No
    09) The Spy Who Loved Me
    10) No Time To Die
    11) Quantum Of Solace
    12) Octopussy
    13) The Man With The Golden Gun
    14) You Only Live Twice
    15) Live And Let Die
    16) Goldfinger
    17) Spectre
    18) Licence To Kill
    19) A View To A Kill
    20) For Your Eyes Only
    21) Tomorrow Never Dies
    22) Moonraker
    23) Die Another Day
    24) The Living Daylights
    25) Diamonds Are Forever
  • Posts: 230
    Casino Royale
    On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    From Russia With Love
    Skyfall
    Thunderball
    The Spy Who Loved Me
    License To Kill
    Live And let Die
    The Living Daylights
    For Your Eyes Only
    Goldfinger
    Goldeneye
    Moonraker
    No Time to Die
    Dr. No
    Spectre
    Quantum of Solace
    A View To A Kill
    Diamonds Are Forever
    Octopussy
    The World is Not Enough
    You Only Live Twice
    Tomorrow Never Dies
    The Man With the Golden Gun
    Die Another Day


  • edited October 2021 Posts: 3,333
    Antster007 wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    Antster007 wrote: »
    Without TSWLM and MR, I think the Franchise is over.
    Could also be said of DAF. :-B
    Connery was going through the motions in DAF. Soundtrack aside, it's not a great Bond film and the paying audiences agreed.
    The domestic box office for DAF was a resounding success and a vast improvement over its predecessor. Sorry, but you can't speak for paying customers back in '71. It's trendy to have it ranked the third-worst Bond movie of all time, as seen by the likes of IGN and RT and here, but that wasn't the mood back in '71—where critics and paying customers were emphatically grateful to see the return of Connery in his iconic role and enjoyed the movie immensely. I say that as a huge fan of Lazenby's Bond, which I saw in the cold winter of '69. By all means place DAF in the bottom of your own personal rankings, but don't think that speaks for everybody in the world, or anyone who saw it in '71. I'll add that DAD was also hugely popular with audiences upon its 2002 release. However, that movie has since fallen out of favour amongst many Bond fans in a similar fashion.

    Again, I'm only pointing out that DAF was also a crucial moment in the continuation of the series and had DAF faltered with John Gavin in the lead role, then the series would've been over long before Moore had been given a chance to make TSWLM. And for the record, it was LALD that was the next crucial touchstone moment in the series.
  • Posts: 6,796
    Birdleson wrote: »
    A fourth viewing, after over a week away. I think it's becoming clearer.

    1. GOLDFINGER
    2. FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE
    3. ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE
    4. CASINO ROYALE
    5. DR. NO
    6. LIVE AND LET DIE
    7. THE SPY WHO LOVED ME
    8. THUNDERBALL
    9. QUANTUM OF SOLACE
    10. SKYFALL
    11. GOLDENEYE
    12. YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE
    13. THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN
    14. FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
    15. LICENCE TO KILL
    16. NO TIME TO DIE
    17. DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER
    18. THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS
    19. OCTOPUSSY
    20. TOMORROW NEVER DIES
    21. A VIEW TO A KILL
    22. DIE ANOTHER DAY
    23. MOONRAKER
    24. THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH
    25. SPECTRE

    We share 3 in our top 5
    (OHMSS, CR and FRWL)
    And I am hoping to see NTTD for a 3rd time on Wednesday, and am expecting it to finish around same place as yours!
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 15,799
    1. GOLDFINGER
    2. THUNDERBALL
    3. DR NO
    4. LIVE AND LET DIE
    5. FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE
    6. THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS
    7. THE SPY WHO LOVED ME
    8. ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE
    9. OCTOPUSSY/NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN
    10. SKYFALL
    11. LICENCE TO KILL
    12. MOONRAKER
    13. YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE
    14. DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER
    15. FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
    16. A VIEW TO A KILL
    17. GOLDENEYE
    18. THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN
    19. CASINO ROYALE 06/ CR 54
    20. THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH
    21. TOMORROW NEVER DIES/CR 67
    22. SPECTRE
    23. NO TIME TO DIE
    24. QUANTUM OF SOLACE
    25. DIE ANOTHER DAY
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    That dropped fast.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 6,707
    @ToTheRight's list changed so much in three days?

    I remember you once did a joke list. DAF was at the top, I think. Are you by any chance pulling our leg again, young man?
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 15,799
    mattjoes wrote: »
    @ToTheRight's list changed so much in three days?

    I remember you once did a joke list. DAF was at the top, I think. Are you by any chance pulling our leg again, young man?

    Sadly, I've come to the realization it doesn't matter if I don't get to see NTTD again anytime soon. Normally when a new Bond is playing in cinemas I'm actively arranging my schedule to go see it multiple times: playing hooky, calling out, skipping school, or whatever. Even DAD. That was part of the fun.
    My second viewing of NTTD didn't have the same impact as my first. It's an extraordinarily well made movie, but almost too much of a downer for a Bond. I really don't see it as a Bond I'll feel like popping in very often on Blu-ray.
    I used to always watch these films with my Dad. He wouldn't go this time due to Covid concerns spending too much time in public places. Deep down I really don't think he's going to enjoy this film and the decisions made here. There might be certain scenes he'd like, that's about it.
  • Posts: 6,707
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    @ToTheRight's list changed so much in three days?

    I remember you once did a joke list. DAF was at the top, I think. Are you by any chance pulling our leg again, young man?

    Sadly, I've come to the realization it doesn't matter if I don't get to see NTTD again anytime soon. Normally when a new Bond is playing in cinemas I'm actively arranging my schedule to go see it multiple times: playing hooky, calling out, skipping school, or whatever. Even DAD. That was part of the fun.
    My second viewing of NTTD didn't have the same impact as my first. It's an extraordinarily well made movie, but almost too much of a downer for a Bond. I really don't see it as a Bond I'll feel like popping in very often on Blu-ray.
    I used to always watch these films with my Dad. He wouldn't go this time due to Covid concerns spending too much time in public places. Deep down I really don't think he's going to enjoy this film and the decisions made here. There might be certain scenes he'd like, that's about it.

    I see. I remember reading you had reservations about the movie going in the first time, so it was cool that you enjoyed it so much on you first watch. Shame that it's gone down in enjoyment for you.

    I liked most of the film the first time, except I was deeply bothered by those decisions you're referring to. The second time I liked most of the film even more, and I became more accepting of those choices they made. I'm going a third time today, let's see how it goes. I already know I really like most of the movie.

    Funny how our opinions are in flux these days.

    By the way, a preemptive apology as I feel I may have been too cheeky in my above comment. It's just that I'm in a good mood these days and that makes me jokey.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 15,799
    @mattjoes apologies unnecessary. Your comment was great. Put a smile on my face. If I do get the opportunity to see this on the big screen again, I'm definitely there, and my feelings may change.
    Funny thing is I'll take a debatably lesser made Bond, say DAD over most other franchises any day. There was a certain point during my last viewing of NTTD when the Jason Connery SPYMAKER Fleming biopic popped into my head, and I thought I'd rather be watching that. It's weird that I felt I'd get my Bond fix satisfied more by a Fleming biopic.
  • 01. Casino Royale
    02. From Russia With Love
    03. Goldfinger
    04. No Time to Die
    05. The Living Daylights
    06. Skyfall
    07. Thunderball
    08. On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    09. The Spy Who Loved Me
    10. GoldenEye
    11. Licence to Kill
    12. Dr. No
    13. Spectre
    14. For Your Eyes Only
    15. Quantum of Solace
    16. Tomorrow Never Dies
    17. You Only Live Twice
    18. Live and Let Die
    19. The Man With the Golden Gun
    20. Diamonds Are Forever
    21. The World Is Not Enough
    22. A View to a Kill
    23. Octopussy
    24. Moonraker
    25. Die Another Day
  • Posts: 6,707
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    There was a certain point during my last viewing of NTTD when the Jason Connery SPYMAKER Fleming biopic popped into my head, and I thought I'd rather be watching that. It's weird that I felt I'd get my Bond fix satisfied more by a Fleming biopic.
    I can understand that, considering this is a unique Bond film in some respects. There's more to be said on the matter, but I won't say it here because this is a non-spoiler thread after all.
  • Posts: 7,500
    Having watched NTTD for a fourth time, I finally feel ready to rank it. As imperfect as it is, the things that are great stand out so much that it has to be in the top five for me, at least for the time being. The rewatch value is also very solid.

    1. From Russia With Love
    2. Casino Royale
    3. Licence To Kill
    4. No Time To Die
    5. Dr No
    6. Skyfall
    7. On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    8. The Living Daylights
    9. For Your Eyes Only
    10. Goldfinger
    11. Thunderball
    12. Octopussy
    13. The Spy Who Loved Me
    14. Quantum Of Solace
    15. Moonraker
    16. You Only Live Twice
    17. Goldeneye
    18. Spectre
    19. Live And Let Die
    20. A View To A Kill
    21. Tomorrow Never Dies
    22. The Man With The Golden Gun
    23. Diamonds Are Forever
    24. The World Is Not Enough
    25. Die Another Day
    26. Never Watch Ever Again


    I want to emphasize that I consider all the films from 1 to 19 either great or solid Bond films. It's only the bottom 7 I consider disappointing or weak.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    NWEA? Good one.
  • Jazz007Jazz007 Minnesota
    Posts: 257
    Updated after seeing No Time To Die....

    1. Casino Royale
    2. Dr. No
    3. Thunderball
    4. Skyfall
    5. On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    6. No Time To Die
    7. Spectre
    8. The Spy Who Loved Me
    9. From Russia With Love
    10. The Living Daylights
    11. Goldfinger
    12. Quantum of Solace
    13. Licence To Kill
    14. For Your Eyes Only
    15. Live and Let Die
    16. Moonraker
    17. You Only Live Twice
    18. Octopussy
    19. GoldenEye
    20. A View To A Kill
    21. The Man With the Golden Gun
    22. Tomorrow Never Dies
    23. Diamonds Are Forever
    24. The World Is Not Enough
    25. Die Another Day
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 15,799
    1. GOLDFINGER
    2. THUNDERBALL
    3. THE SPY WHO LOVED ME
    4. FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE
    5. LIVE AND LET DIE
    6. DR NO
    7. ON HER MAJESTY'S SECCRET SERVICE
    8. THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS
    9. OCTOPUSSY/NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN
    10. FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
    11. A VIEW TO A KILL
    12. MOONRAKER
    13. LICENCE TO KILL/ CR 54
    14. GOLDENEYE
    15. CASINO ROYALE 06
    16. NO TIME TO DIE
    17. THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH
    18. DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER
    19. SKYFALL
    20. YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE/ CR 67
    21. TOMORROW NEVER DIES
    22. DIE ANOTHER DAY
    23. QUANTUM OF SOLACE
    24. THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN
    25. SPECTRE
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 526
    Top 25 Bond Films
    1. Casino Royale (perfection) 2006
    2. Quantum of Solace
    3. Skyfall
    4. Spectre
    5. License To Kill
    6. The Living Daylights
    7. A View To A Kill
    8. For Your Eyes Only
    9. The Man With The Golden Gun
    10. Thunderball
    11. Live And Let Die
    12. Octopussy
    13. Dr. No
    14. Casino Royale 54
    15. The Spy Who Loved Me
    16. OHMSS
    17. Moonraker
    18. You Only Live Twice
    19. Goldfinger
    20. Goldeneye
    21. The World Is Not Enough
    22. Diamonds Are Forever
    23. Tomorrow Never Dies
    24. From Russia With Love
    25. Casino Royale 67
    26. Die Another Day
    27. Never Say Never Again
    28. No Time To Die

    For 16 and below, I seldom if ever watch. This is the “bad batch” for me. No. 28 is at the very bottom of the barrel where the apples have been fermenting for some time. I think I’m the only one who has rated it last.
    Only one Connery movie in my top 10.
  • Posts: 15,799
    Top 25 Bond Films
    1. Casino Royale (perfection) 2006
    2. Quantum of Solace
    3. Skyfall
    4. Spectre
    5. License To Kill
    6. The Living Daylights
    7. A View To A Kill
    8. For Your Eyes Only
    9. The Man With The Golden Gun
    10. Thunderball
    11. Live And Let Die
    12. Octopussy
    13. Dr. No
    14. Casino Royale 54
    15. The Spy Who Loved Me
    16. OHMSS
    17. Moonraker
    18. You Only Live Twice
    19. Goldfinger
    20. Goldeneye
    21. The World Is Not Enough
    22. Diamonds Are Forever
    23. Tomorrow Never Dies
    24. From Russia With Love
    25. Casino Royale 67
    26. Die Another Day
    27. Never Say Never Again
    28. No Time To Die

    For 16 and below, I seldom if ever watch. This is the “bad batch” for me. No. 28 is at the very bottom of the barrel where the apples have been fermenting for some time. I think I’m the only one who has rated it last.
    Only one Connery movie in my top 10.

    I rated it last for awhile as well. I keep going back ad forth on that. Right now for me it's a lower mid level entry. I have a hunch it will be ending it's run in my neck of the woods soon, so I doubt I'll get time to see it again before it gets a Blu-ray release. My first viewing was outstanding, but the 2nd dropped considerably.
  • Posts: 526
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Top 25 Bond Films
    1. Casino Royale (perfection) 2006
    2. Quantum of Solace
    3. Skyfall
    4. Spectre
    5. License To Kill
    6. The Living Daylights
    7. A View To A Kill
    8. For Your Eyes Only
    9. The Man With The Golden Gun
    10. Thunderball
    11. Live And Let Die
    12. Octopussy
    13. Dr. No
    14. Casino Royale 54
    15. The Spy Who Loved Me
    16. OHMSS
    17. Moonraker
    18. You Only Live Twice
    19. Goldfinger
    20. Goldeneye
    21. The World Is Not Enough
    22. Diamonds Are Forever
    23. Tomorrow Never Dies
    24. From Russia With Love
    25. Casino Royale 67
    26. Die Another Day
    27. Never Say Never Again
    28. No Time To Die

    For 16 and below, I seldom if ever watch. This is the “bad batch” for me. No. 28 is at the very bottom of the barrel where the apples have been fermenting for some time. I think I’m the only one who has rated it last.
    Only one Connery movie in my top 10.

    I rated it last for awhile as well. I keep going back ad forth on that. Right now for me it's a lower mid level entry. I have a hunch it will be ending it's run in my neck of the woods soon, so I doubt I'll get time to see it again before it gets a Blu-ray release. My first viewing was outstanding, but the 2nd dropped considerably.

    I almost watched it again, but I thought I’d like it even less. Sounds like you did too. Sometimes you just have to go with your feelings. Maybe in time I’ll watch it again, but I doubt it. Hopefully we will get a better film with Bond 26. And not a 6 year wait!
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited October 2021 Posts: 6,775
    I finally came around to give NTTD a second watch. Liked it better than the first watch.

    1. The Living Daylights (1987)
    2. Licence to Kill (1989)
    3. On Her Majesty’s Secret Service (1969)
    4. From Russia with Love (1963)
    5. Spectre (2015)
    6. Thunderball (1965)
    7. Casino Royale (2006)
    8. Octopussy (1983)
    9. No Time to Die (2021)
    10. The World Is Not Enough (1999)
    11. The Man with the Golden Gun (1974)
    12. Dr. No (1962)
    13. Quantum of Solace (2008)
    14. GoldenEye (1995)
    15. For Your Eyes Only (1981)
    16. Diamonds Are Forever (1971)
    17. A View to a Kill (1985)
    18. The Spy Who Loved Me (1977)
    19. Never Say Never Again (1983)
    20. Moonraker (1979)
    21. Goldfinger (1964)
    22. You Only Live Twice (1967)
    23. Tomorrow Never Dies (1997)
    24. Skyfall (2012)
    25. Casino Royale (1967)
    26. Die Another Day (2002)
    27. Live and Let Die (1973)


    For Bond films I’m pretty generous with my ratings, I’d say:

    #1-10 = 10/10
    #11-16 = 9/10
    #17-21 = 8/10
    #22-25 = 7/10
    #26-27 = 6/10
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 6,796
    Right, I have placed the latest Bond, but still not sure, when I view it on bluray it may go up or down!!!
    1) OHMSS
    2) TLD
    3) LTK
    4) CR
    5) FRWL
    6) QOS
    7) OP
    8) LALD
    9) TB
    10) GF
    11) DN
    12) NO TIME TO DIE
    13) FYEO
    14) MR
    15) SP
    16) TSWLM
    17) TMWTGG
    18) AVTAK
    19) NSNA
    20) SF
    21) YOLT
    22) DAF
    23) TWINE
    24) TND
    25) GE
    26) DAD
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited October 2021 Posts: 6,775
    I know you don’t like GE, bit you’ve ranked it both penultimate and last, isn’t that a bit too harsh :))?

    Great top 3 btw, as always :)
  • Posts: 2,400
    DAD is the one missing. I hope GE was at least able to top that! 😂
  • Posts: 6,796
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I know you don’t like GE, bit you’ve ranked it both penultimate and last, isn’t that a bit too harsh :))?

    Great top 3 btw, as always :)
    Haha, yes, corrected now!
  • FeyadorFeyador Montreal, Canada
    edited October 2021 Posts: 735
    A different kind of ranking ....

    1. DN to TB (62-65) - Connery
    2. OHMSS - Lazenby
    3. CR & QOS - Craig
    4. SF to NTTD (12-21) - Craig
    5. TSWLM & MR - Moore
    6. GE & TND - Brosnan
    7. LALD & TMWTGG - Moore
    8. YOLT & DAF - Connery
    9. FYEO to AVTAK (81 to 85) - Moore
    10. TLD & LTK - Dalton
    11. TWINE & DAD - Brosnan
  • JamesCraigJamesCraig Ancient Rome
    edited October 2021 Posts: 3,497
    bondsum wrote: »
    Antster007 wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    Antster007 wrote: »
    Without TSWLM and MR, I think the Franchise is over.
    Could also be said of DAF. :-B
    Connery was going through the motions in DAF. Soundtrack aside, it's not a great Bond film and the paying audiences agreed.
    The domestic box office for DAF was a resounding success and a vast improvement over its predecessor. Sorry, but you can't speak for paying customers back in '71. It's trendy to have it ranked the third-worst Bond movie of all time, as seen by the likes of IGN and RT and here, but that wasn't the mood back in '71—where critics and paying customers were emphatically grateful to see the return of Connery in his iconic role and enjoyed the movie immensely. I say that as a huge fan of Lazenby's Bond, which I saw in the cold winter of '69. By all means place DAF in the bottom of your own personal rankings, but don't think that speaks for everybody in the world, or anyone who saw it in '71. I'll add that DAD was also hugely popular with audiences upon its 2002 release. However, that movie has since fallen out of favour amongst many Bond fans in a similar fashion.

    Again, I'm only pointing out that DAF was also a crucial moment in the continuation of the series and had DAF faltered with John Gavin in the lead role, then the series would've been over long before Moore had been given a chance to make TSWLM. And for the record, it was LALD that was the next crucial touchstone moment in the series.

    The fact that DAF was a financial succes does not make it a fantastic movie, Bondsum. And you don't have to be your usual know it all self, he never said that he speaks for "everybody".

    Btw, LALD just barely made it into the top ten BO of 1973. No Moore Bond made it past the sixth place. AVTAK and TMWTGG didn't even made the top ten. But that's not a reason for me to like or dislike a movie, see.
  • Mi6appealMi6appeal Denver, CO USA
    edited November 2021 Posts: 10
    I'm going to get savaged!

    1. The World Is Not Enough
    2. Casino Royale
    3. Skyfall
    4. On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    5. Tomorrow Never Dies
    6. Goldeneye
    7. No Time to Die
    8. The Living Daylights
    9. Goldfinger
    10. Diamonds Are Forever
    11. For Your Eyes Only
    12. Moonraker
    13. The Spy Who Loved Me
    14. Live and Let Die
    15. From Russia With Love
    16. A View to a Kill
    17. Thunderball
    18. Dr. No
    19. Quantum of Solace
    20. You Only Live Twice
    21. Octopussy
    22. Spectre
    23. The Man With the Golden Gun
    24. Die Another Day
    25. License to Kill
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,775
    I love TWINE as well, though I also love LTK ;)
  • Posts: 12,248
    1. Casino Royale
    2. On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    3. Thunderball
    4. From Russia with Love
    5. Skyfall
    6. Goldfinger
    7. Dr. No
    8. GoldenEye
    9. The Spy Who Loved Me
    10. No Time to Die
    11. Quantum of Solace
    12. Licence to Kill
    13. For Your Eyes Only
    14. The Living Daylights
    15. Live and Let Die
    16. The Man with the Golden Gun
    17. You Only Live Twice
    18. Tomorrow Never Dies
    19. A View to a Kill
    20. Moonraker
    21. Octopussy
    22. The World Is Not Enough
    23. Spectre
    24. Diamonds Are Forever
    25. Die Another Day
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    edited November 2021 Posts: 2,161
    After a fifth viewing of NTTD: first time I really liked it with major reservations, then not so much, then I liked it again, then not so much, fifth time I came up with this (spoiler explains below)....

    1. GOLDFINGER
    2. FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE
    3. ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE
    4. CASINO ROYALE
    5. DR. NO
    6. LIVE AND LET DIE
    7. THE SPY WHO LOVED ME
    8. THUNDERBALL
    9. QUANTUM OF SOLACE
    10. GOLDENEYE
    11. SKYFALL
    12. YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE
    13. FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
    14. LICENCE TO KILL
    15. THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN
    16. NO TIME TO DIE
    17. DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER
    18. THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS
    19. OCTOPUSSY
    20. TOMORROW NEVER DIES
    21. A VIEW TO A KILL
    22. DIE ANOTHER DAY
    23. MOONRAKER
    24. THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH
    25. SPECTRE

    Without "that" ending NTTD would probably sit comfortably in my Top 12, in a tussle with YOLT, GE and SF for that coveted 10th spot (and I consider my Top 12 to essentially be my Top Ten, as it is so tight up there, so it would have expanded my Top 10 to encompass my Top 13), but, regardless, the damage is there. It substantially deflates the whole experience for me. Hell, take away the ending, and significantly pare down the soap opera and forced continuity (streamline the film in general), and this could have even cut deeper into my elite. But we have the product that we have, and going by my pure enjoyment of the films, or how they move me in some way, it is even tenuous where it rests now (I hold great affection for the three flawed, yet often great, 007 entires directly below it), but there is no denying how well it moves at times (almost as often as it feels bogged down by it's own pretentious weight) and how solidly it sometimes hits the mark.
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