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Star Wars (1977 - present)

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  • patbpatb
    edited December 2016 Posts: 4,602
    Its a big gamble I am am not sure that it was worth it re Leia, did we have to see her?, the guards could have passed the memory chip to C3PO with orders to deliver it to the Leia (avoiding the scene earlier where they shoe horn the robots in), I have read other comments suggesting that we see the back of Tarkin and his reflection in the window , perhaps that could have worked, its easy to over think these things and I know plenty of more mainstream movie fans who were not taken out of the film. How ever they handled the Tarkin challenge, they would have been criticised by some fans
    another point, I would love to see a remake set in WW2 where the Germans are constructing the new V3 rocket with nuclear warhead at La Couple and the French resistance have to find the weakness and get the information back to RAF mosquito squadrons
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    @patb, I'm with you re:
    Leia perhaps not being necessary (it didn't solicit any reaction from audiences in the theatre that I watched it in), and perhaps mentioning her name might have been sufficient. I also agree on a more discreet use of Tarkin, like the window reflection or something. Sometimes, less is more. Like I said, when I first saw him, I was shocked in a positive way, but the more I saw him, the more apparent the CGI became. Perhaps it was a no-win situation, given they needed to find a way to tie this in solidly and convincingly to A New Hope.
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,602
    Re Tarkin, the issue is that in A New Hope, he is clealry Darth Vader's boss and in charge of the whole project so to not have him on the movie would have been very tough and not worked IMHO so they had to do somethng. You wonder, once they have spend x dollars on the digital rendering, they wanted to get their monies worth?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,632
    @patb

    A very clever remark, sir, regarding
    Tarkin holding some authority over Vader. They showed him a little at the end of Sith but to understand how important he truly is aboard the Death Star, we had to have him here from the get-go and be an A-hole to Krennic.

    I've always loved Tarkin. He's one of two mysteries for me:
    1) Tarkin is the only one who isn't the Emperor to have some power over Vader, even more surprising considering the fact that Tarkin isn't a Force user. Lucas was unwise to leave Tarkin out of the prequels. He could have been shown alongside the Emperor as his chief engineer or whatever. Suddenly, at the end of Sith, this figure shows up in the higher echelons of the newborn empire. Where did he come from? Given the charismatic Peter Cushing's powerful screen presence, it's a missed opportunity to have so little of his character in the saga. Rogue One at the very least compensates for some of that, and, as a bonus, gives us Cushing himself, more or less. Whoever made this decision has a charitable disposition to say the least.
    2) Admiral Piett, whom for some reason escapes Vader's punishments time and again.
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,602
    yes, it's a key scene in a New Hope when Tarkin orders Darth to stop. Almost as if Darth is the henchman and Tarkin is Blofeld ? but no explanation of the dynamic between the two of them and the source of Tarkin's authority over Darth. They just had to have Tarkin in the movie in some way. These prequals are very hard to do properly after such a long period
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    DarthDimi wrote: »

    I've always loved Tarkin. He's one of two mysteries for me:
    1) Tarkin is the only one who isn't the Emperor to have some power over Vader, even more surprising considering the fact that Tarkin isn't a Force user. Lucas was unwise to leave Tarkin out of the prequels. He could have been shown alongside the Emperor as his chief engineer or whatever. Suddenly, at the end of Sith, this figure shows up in the higher echelons of the newborn empire. Where did he come from? Given the charismatic Peter Cushing's powerful screen presence, it's a missed opportunity to have so little of his character in the saga. Rogue One at the very least compensates for some of that, and, as a bonus, gives us Cushing himself, more or less. Whoever made this decision has a charitable disposition to say the least.
    In regards to Tarkin, he's expanded on quite a bit in material such as The Clone Wars and Rebels and quite a few books (including one about him, called Tarkin). A trio of episodes of The Clone Wars called the Citadel Trilogy has a good bit of interaction between Tarkin and a pre-Vader Anakin, where they find they agree quite a bit on the state of the Republic during the Clone War.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited December 2016 Posts: 23,632
    Ow, interesting, @Agent007391, thank you! :)

    One more thing,
    compared to Tarkin, Leia has a tawdry appearance some say. I don't know. I always feel she comes off as an ethereal presence. The CGI may be a bit less successful in her case but she is a symbol of purity and hope and somehow her looks in Rogue One have a lot of that going for her.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    Another thing I forgot to mention was Vader's castle. How awesome was that? Now that's a place I wish we could have seen more of. Who was that guy in the black cloak supposed to be? Plus, I thought those Imperial guards dressed in red were the Emperor's personal guards? I didn't realize that he shared them with Vader.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited December 2016 Posts: 8,049
    Double Comment
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,049
    It was a nice touch to have Vader's castle on Mustafar, considering that's where he really, and truly, became a Dark Lord.
  • patbpatb
    edited December 2016 Posts: 4,602
    more thoughts on Vader....
    re the role of Darth, if you ignore the legacy of the character and look at his role in this film, what does he add? He gives a verbal warning and a throat squeeze to a colleague and then, at the end, boards the ship, kills some guards and fails to obtain the plans. He makes no real impact either on the emotional connection or interacting with the good guys. He is clearly there to please the fans and it works but , in terms of making a great standalone film, his presence IMHO is a distraction and takes screen time away from the characters who are actually moving the film forward. These are the issues/challenges that come up for a director/screen writer who gets invloved in a big franchise and you can clearly see parallels with Bond re regualar characters making appearances when they are not really required but the fans have expectations that the script writers want to meet.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2016 Posts: 23,883
    patb wrote: »
    more thoughts on Vader....
    re the role of Darth, if you ignore the legacy of the character and look at his role in this film, what does he add? He gives a verbal warning and a throat squeeze to a colleague and then, at the end, boards the ship, kills some guards and fails to obtain the plans. He makes no real impact either on the emotional connection or interacting with the good guys. He is clearly there to please the fans and it works but , in terms of making a great standalone film, his presence IMHO is a distraction and takes screen time away from the characters who are actually moving the film forward. These are the issues/challenges that come up for a director/screen writer who gets invloved in a big franchise and you can clearly see parallels with Bond re regualar characters making appearances when they are not really required but the fans have expectations that the script writers want to meet.
    You hit the nail on the head here. I was thinking the same thing.
    Vader is 'fan bait' and it works. Sort of like the DB5 or Q for Bond. I realized it after I saw TFA again yesterday. I felt more of a connection to Kylo Ren than I did to Vader, despite Vader being such an iconic and historic figure in the franchise. Don't get me wrong, I loved his appearance and antics, but he just seemed soulless to me in Rogue One. Superfluous. It's clear to me at least that the new characters created last year for Episode 7 are where the emphasis will be going forward.
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,602
    the alternative to leaving Vader out is too give him a much larger role, so seeing him exit the ship in the first scene and face off against Mads would have perhaps been better? and he could have killed Mad's wife using the force. It would have been amazing IMHO but that denies the opportunity of introducing him around 60% through the movie - an established screenwriting trick to inject new energy and avoid the mid-movie "boring bit", we also know he cant die so there is not opportunity for our main hero to gain revenge, they were also very restricted re his role at the end as he could not take part in the main attack set piece as he had to be on the ship...its a complex jigsaw but I think they could have done better"
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I thought about the possibility of a Vader intro at the start as well, but after seeing TFA last night I realized that would be too similar to the earlier film, where Kylo Ren shows up and kills Lor San Tekka. A little more involvement by him would have been nice, but they didn't really develop the new characters all that well either imho. One more thing I noticed about TFA: the storm troopers are more effective in the earlier film
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    I think they used Vader quite effectively. He was there to remind both the audience and the characters exactly why he's there: To weed out the weaknesses in the Empire and rip the Rebellion to shreds. In a 2 hour 13 minute film, he took up all of 2 minutes. If anything, they could have ripped the scene where Saw Gerrera's tentacle monster mind-raped Bohdi and given that to the rest of the cast. That truly did nothing to the plot of the film, while Vader's arrival at the battle of Scarif establishes him chasing Princess Leia at the opening of A New Hope.

    I'm not entirely certain the story would have been served better if Vader had been with Krennic in the film's prologue. Krennic and Galen had the history together, not Galen and Vader. Vader would have been more superfluous if he'd been in the prologue, where he wasn't needed.

    So I don't feel Vader was wasted, I don't feel he was unnecessary. I wouldn't hate the movie if Vader wasn't in it, but then we, the audience, would have been robbed of very excellent scenes. And robbing the audience is the worst sin that the filmmakers could have committed.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    So much complaining, I thought it was perfect.
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,602
    dont get me wrong, I really loved it, really loved it. But it does show the mammouth task for the script writers when dealing with a franchise like this ,
    re Vader again, yes, he took up 2 mins but, such is his legacy, that you cant treat him like any other character, 2 mins for him is like 20 mins for the new characters, such is his massive legacy, so the danger is that he outshines the team of heros/villains and we forget that the real personal emotion and the focus of murder and revenge is the relationship between Jyn and Ors. Vader is on the periphery of the story and nothing he did was a game changer re moving the story forward. We are used to seeing him as right in the centre of the plot so seeing him in a supporting role just felt strange to me. Its a hard choice but IMHO, he is either fully involved or not there at all,
  • fire_and_icefire_and_ice
    Posts: 6,432
    Great movie RO is far better than I was expecting, before watching the film I debated whether the film was necessary. After watching I was grateful of the best cinematic experience I have had in sometime, they really went for it which I applaud =D>
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,049
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    So much complaining, I thought it was perfect.

    +1. Thought it was a great film and did a fantastic job of verifying its own existence. I was extremely apprehensive after the first two underwhelming trailers but thankfully all of those fears were unfounded.

    It took a story that I didn't feel needed to be told and made it feel incredibly important that it was told. That in itself was an accomplishment.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    1 THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK
    2 THE FORCE AWAKENS
    3 ROGUE ONE
    4 STAR WARS
    5 REVENGE OF THE SITH
    6 ATTACK OF THE CLONES
    7 THE PHANTOM MENACE
    8 RETURN OF THE JEDI
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    So our biggest disagreements are Rogue One and Return of the Jedi. Other than those, pretty much in sync.
  • StirredNotShakenStirredNotShaken Toronto
    edited December 2016 Posts: 2,400
    bondjames wrote: »
    I thought about the possibility of a Vader intro at the start as well, but after seeing TFA last night I realized that would be too similar to the earlier film, where Kylo Ren shows up and kills Lor San Tekka. A little more involvement by him would have been nice, but they didn't really develop the new characters all that well either imho. One more thing I noticed about TFA: the storm troopers are more effective in the earlier film

    And as we know from how the crybabies who loved Rogue One reacted to TFA, you can't copy or rehash anything (because Rogue One was DEFINITELY 100% completely undoubtedly absolutely original and not cookie cutter AT ALL WHATSOEVER) or else you've committed a cinematic travesty.

    8: Rogue One 3.5/10
    7: Attack of the Clones 4/10
    6: The Phantom Menace 4.5/10
    5: Return of the Jedi 7.5/10
    4: Revenge of the Sith 9/10
    3: The Force Awakens 10/10
    2: Star Wars 10/10
    1: The Empire Strikes Back 10/10
  • StirredNotShakenStirredNotShaken Toronto
    Posts: 2,400
    Agent007391 wrote: »
    pachazo wrote: »
    Mads Mikkelsen is such a great actor that I wish we could have spent more time with him. Instead of adding some of these other extraneous characters, like the pilot, I would have preferred to have gotten to know Galen better and further explored his past/present relationship with Krennic.
    Read Star Wars: Catalyst. It's exactly what you're looking for there. I finished it mere hours before seeing the movie and was very glad because of it.

    The notion that having to read a separate book written to make an extra buck is required to make a film have at least a little bit of depth is stupid. That's exactly the problem with this movie.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I never read the book, and don t feel I need to.
  • fire_and_icefire_and_ice
    Posts: 6,432
    1. Empire Strikes Back
    2. Star Wars
    3. Return of the Jedi
    4. Revenge of the Sith
    5. Force Awakens
    6. Rogue One
    7. Phantom Menace
    8. Attack of the Clones

    The films have there respective strengths and weaknesses, I enjoy watching them all for different reasons. I enjoyed Rogue One though having only seen it once it's position is relatively low at the moment.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,333
    It's like poetry it rhymes. ;)
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    edited December 2016 Posts: 12,290
    My current ranking/rating goes:

    1. The Empire Strikes Back (10/10; as great as Star Wars will ever be)
    2. Revenge of the Sith (9/10)
    3. Return of the Jedi (8.5/10)
    4. A New Hope (8.5/10)
    5. The Force Awakens (7.5/10)
    6. Attack of the Clones (6.5/10)
    7. The Phantom Menace (6/10)

    Have not yet seen Rogue One. Probably won't until it's available to rent.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited December 2016 Posts: 8,159
    Murdock wrote: »
    It's like poetry it rhymes. ;)

    It's stylistically designed to be that way...
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,049
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    I never read the book, and don t feel I need to.

    Same here. My ranking would be.

    1. A New Hope
    2. Empire
    3. Rogue One
    4. Return of the Jedi
    5. The Force Awakens
    6. Revenge of the Sith

    7. The Phantom Menace
    8. Attack of the Clones
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,602
    Interesting rankings, I think there is so much deep rooted affection for the orignal three movies (and the characters within them) that it may be impossible to create new movies within the franchise that can compete (perhaps a little like Star Trek?). I did my very best to judge RO on its own merits and really liked it as a standalone movie but, within rankings, I completely understand that it will struggle against movies that included cultural icons such as Yoda, Chewy etc etc These have become more than just movies, they have become part of our cultural heritage which is a great thing but it does get in the way of being able to judge any new additions to the franchise with a completely open mind. I have seen some forums where some said that they preferred RO to any of the original movies and this opinion was met with complete disbelief and, with some, anger.
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