'Skyfall' re-ignited me as a fan. What about you?

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  • Posts: 4,599
    IMDB poles have little to do with mainstream audiences. SF offered a very rounded movie experience. It alienated some Bond fans because it tried to do something different. And thats why, I suspect this thread exists. It is closer to a conventional thriller and further away from mainstream conventional Bond than any of the others IMHO and I suspect this debate will still be running for many years in the same way the OHMSS is still hotly debated. Obviously everyone has the right to their own opinion but the fact is that movies are made to put bums on seats and , if possible, gain critical acclaim. Even those who don't like it surely have to respect it for what it achieved.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    @patb I actually found SF to be much more conventional as a Bond film than QoS or even CR. I found those two were more of a franchise shakeup (CR because it followed the book in parts and slowed down in the casino scenes, and QoS because of many reasons including the pacing, editing, artsy feet etc.).

    I think audiences liked SF as much as they did because to some extent it did take us back to old school Bond (cinematographically, character building, taking time to set the scene etc.).
  • Posts: 4,599
    We need a matrix of what makes a Bond movie and then see which ones tick the boxes? Who was the Bond girl in SF for example? but I do take your point re CR
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    patb wrote: »
    Who was the Bond girl in SF for example?

    Point taken. M perhaps? However, the same thing can be said about QoS (he didn't even sleep with Camille).

    All I know is both my parents love SF but did not like QoS (they couldn't follow what was going on up on the screen) and they have been Bond fans since before I was born.

  • Posts: 4,599
    The central core of SF is Bond's relationship with M. (and obviously the bad guys relationship with M). This makes it far more personal and grown up (and non sexual) than any other Bond.Kermode says it at 7.30 far better than I can:
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I like Kermode's reviews.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    bondjames wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    Who was the Bond girl in SF for example?

    Point taken. M perhaps? However, the same thing can be said about QoS (he didn't even sleep with Camille).

    All I know is both my parents love SF but did not like QoS (they couldn't follow what was going on up on the screen) and they have been Bond fans since before I was born.

    And that's what makes those films interesting. They don't follow the same tired old conventions of the past, which would make a Bond film that is truly and unbearably conventional.

    The Craig era has dared to do a lot differently with not only the character of Bond and his world, but also in the way the stories are told. They've elevated him to a position of deep character study that hasn't been this complex in a long time; around LTK's release, really. Too often some of the films end up being rather routine affairs where you can expect every moment an hour before it arrives or the contents of the action are so empty that you feel no connection at all to what is going on, which reduces Bond to a dimensionless action personality along for the ride. The best Bond films are the ones that treat him and his universe with utter believability and take us along for the ride too, more than willing to shake things up along the way.

    Some of the most acclaimed films in the franchise are seen as such hits in part because they dared to do things differently than before, a perfect example of which is OHMSS. It ends in a way that the previous films would never have you expect; the filmmakers trick you into thinking Bond will ride off into the sunset. The same could be said of Casino Royale and Vesper's betrayal and later penitence, which treats Bond's sorrow with a straight face and never shies away from giving that arc its proper exploration. In too many Bond films, loses like these are shown and them shoved back under the rug, as if Bond, the film and its audience are expected to just forget they ever happened. This robs some of the films of a strong emotional core, creating less and less dimension in the surrounding drama as a campy one-liner is dropped right after a moment of intensity. It's simply put that renown is gained by those who look at existing traditions or expectations and do something fresh, circumventing a lot of what is expected of them by a public so used to the norm.


    Skyfall does much the same thing by taking existing conventions in the franchise and in cinema altogether, flipping them on their back. Skyfall openly questions a lot of real-world themes you wouldn't expect to be in an action movie, another hallmark of the Craig era, which has always told relevant stories in each film without holding back. With Casino Royale we are connected to the terrorism scare of the new millennia, the dangers of trust and a frailty in security in a post 9/11 world. In QoS, oil came into play, as well as the dirty dealings governments get into for profit. And in Skyfall, the relevancy of agencies and field operatives in general were questioned, along with issues of domestic terrorism and tradition (Bond) vs. new age (Silva). These are the kinds of themes you just don't see as present in films of their kind, and never as openly in other Bond films as they are in here. More than any other set of films, the Craig Bond adventures make me think long and hard after I watch them, about everything from morality and humanity to duty and responsibility. I don't do that with a lot of the other Bond films, so they must be doing something right.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Statistically speaking, the more money a Bond movie makes, the less likely it is that it will be a favourite of mine (YOLT being the biggest exception).
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Well said @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7. I couldn't agree more.

    SF did lean back a little towards some of the old things we know and love (Aston with Bond theme blaring, Silva's jaw, MP/Bond banter, Q/Bond banter) but in a way that was a good thing, because folks like my parents could find something that they were familiar with to relate to within the context of the 50 yr Bond universe. They both loved CR too but for different reasons. Both films had a slower, romantic air about them too. They just couldn't keep up with what was going on in QoS - the pace was too fast for them and the editing did not help. It's a fine line, keeping some of the traditional elements without letting it become full out cliche. So far they've done a great job in all 3 Craig adventures in striking the right balance imo. These are definitely adult Bond films.

    Of the 3 I personally find QoS the most interesting because it seems the most realistic to me. Water is a resource that people are fighting over in the Middle East as we speak (although not publicly admitting it). It is something that may trigger the next big fight between nations - nefarious attempts to get rights to it is quite believable.

    In SF I found the speech by M about the importance of the double '0' section intespersed with Tennyson to be one of the best scenes.
  • Posts: 11,425
    patb wrote: »
    IMDB poles have little to do with mainstream audiences. SF offered a very rounded movie experience. It alienated some Bond fans because it tried to do something different. And thats why, I suspect this thread exists. It is closer to a conventional thriller and further away from mainstream conventional Bond than any of the others IMHO and I suspect this debate will still be running for many years in the same way the OHMSS is still hotly debated. Obviously everyone has the right to their own opinion but the fact is that movies are made to put bums on seats and , if possible, gain critical acclaim. Even those who don't like it surely have to respect it for what it achieved.

    Funny. I see it quite differently. I see the SF story as really badly done - not like a 'proper' thriller at all. More of a nasty straight to DVD type plot. The story is actually total nonsense. What 'redeems' the film is supposedly the cinematogrpahy and themes that run through it. But in my view, if the story isn't right, then the film ain't right either.

    Loving the fact that SF is slipping, even in IMDB rankings - not that I pay any attention to them, of course! ;)

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    bondjames wrote: »
    Well said @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7. I couldn't agree more.

    SF did lean back a little towards some of the old things we know and love (Aston with Bond theme blaring, Silva's jaw, MP/Bond banter, Q/Bond banter) but in a way that was a good thing, because folks like my parents could find something that they were familiar with to relate to within the context of the 50 yr Bond universe. They both loved CR too but for different reasons. Both films had a slower, romantic air about them too. They just couldn't keep up with what was going on in QoS - the pace was too fast for them and the editing did not help. It's a fine line, keeping some of the traditional elements without letting it become full out cliche. So far they've done a great job in all 3 Craig adventures in striking the right balance imo. These are definitely adult Bond films.

    Of the 3 I personally find QoS the most interesting because it seems the most realistic to me. Water is a resource that people are fighting over in the Middle East as we speak (although not publicly admitting it). It is something that may trigger the next big fight between nations - nefarious attempts to get rights to it is quite believable.

    In SF I found the speech by M about the importance of the double '0' section intespersed with Tennyson to be one of the best scenes.

    As it is well know around here, the Tennyson speech is not only what I would refer to as the defining "moment" of Skyfall that connects each and every theme it dares to spin, but it is also my favorite moment of the entire Bond franchise. I honestly couldn't gush about it enough, quite frankly, even two years on. M's speech cites real world, current day concerns while using lines crafted in the far past as a vessel for expressing them in an exceptional and moving fashion. The relevancy of the 00 section and human agents in our technologically advanced world is a compelling question to ponder and debate, and one that M stands up for honorably. Skyfall connects so much of the present to the past, and M's big moment is no exception. Her speech is one that I could see Churchill himself giving during the Battle of Britain in the 40s as he stood in the rubble of a burning England, when any sense of comfort or assurance in the "empire" was lost. In fact, one of Churchill's most famous quotes is, "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." In many ways, he said in his day what M was saying in hers, two people connected by the insurmountable challenges they faced to both their lives and careers, but who chose to soldier on past what many saw as defeat, acting as a beacon of hope for those willing and courageous enough to brave the storm with them. It's beautiful stuff, truly.

    The Tennyson speech stays true to the characters of both M and Bond, who are the personifications of the ideals spouted by Ulysses in the masterwork by the poet. The theme of endurance through struggle has massive implications that reach far beyond the scope of the film itself and bleed into the history of Bond's cinematic legacy as we know it. While M's struggle to subdue Silva's threat and Bond's fight to rise like a phoenix from the ashes are clear thematic resonators of this expressed theme, the words and values exuded from the poem symbolize the endurance of the Bond franchise itself, which has survived the numerous re-castings of its star role, stormy litigation nightmares and dramatic tonal shifts from era to era, remaining a strong and lively series 50 years onwards. If anything, Skyfall, with Tennyson's thematic work at its core, is just as much a message about the importance of moving forward through hardship as it is a celebration of all that the Bond franchise is about: strength, boldness, determination, duty and loyalty. Damn I love this film.
  • Posts: 4,599
    Spot on, and what other Bond movies could result in such deep interpretations and comment? This is what proper cinema is all about IMHO
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 11,425
    As I've always said, although I'm not a fan, SF is a superior class of failure. At least it set its sights high, even though it did not really succeed in what it was trying to do. This is sad, but it does mean that there is plenty to say about it. Sometimes the failures are actually more interesting to discuss than the successes. How much time is devoted to discussing FRWL on here? Hardly any. And yet DAD gets pages and pages of comments. A bad film can have a lot of interesting content, great cinematography and even good performances - if everything does not work together or click, then the film can still fail.

    All I would say is that I think some people are easily tricked into believing portentious doom-laden darkness = quality entertainment.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Getafix wrote: »
    All I would say is that I think some people are easily tricked into believing portentious doom-laden darkness = quality entertainment.
    Yes. Give me an unpretentious fun adventure over that faux-heady tripe any day.
    Something like... TND.
    =D>
  • Posts: 11,425
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    All I would say is that I think some people are easily tricked into believing portentious doom-laden darkness = quality entertainment.
    Yes. Give me an unpretentious fun adventure over that faux-heady tripe any day.
    Something like... TND.
    =D>

    TND is the only Brosnan film I actually enjoyed in the cinema. Not sure it bears repeated reviewing, but I've always regarded it as Brosnan's 'best'. Decent supporting cast IMO and the arrival of David Arnold really helped lift the tone. I also think Spottiswoode gave the film a look and feel that finally dragged the series into the 90s (GE very much looked and felt like an 80s hang-over visually).

    After TND I really thought Brosnan was growing into the role. It's his best performance IMO. His jitters and smarm from GE have reduced and he's a little more steely. Alas, it was proceeded by TWINE and DAD and the rest is history.
  • Posts: 4,599
    thread drift alert
  • Posts: 1,394
    patb wrote: »
    Just seen M die again, must be around a dozen times and its still compelling. One the THE great Bond scenes of all time IMHO

    My favourite scene in the movie because i was glad she was finally dead.Sorry, not trying to be a troll here but i genuinely disliked Judi Dench in the role and she should never have been in the reboot movies anyway.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2015 Posts: 23,883
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    Just seen M die again, must be around a dozen times and its still compelling. One the THE great Bond scenes of all time IMHO

    My favourite scene in the movie because i was glad she was finally dead.Sorry, not trying to be a troll here but i genuinely disliked Judi Dench in the role and she should never have been in the reboot movies anyway.

    That's not trolling imo. It's a statement of opinion. I happen to wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment.
  • Posts: 1,394
    bondjames wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    Just seen M die again, must be around a dozen times and its still compelling. One the THE great Bond scenes of all time IMHO

    My favourite scene in the movie because i was glad she was finally dead.Sorry, not trying to be a troll here but i genuinely disliked Judi Dench in the role and she should never have been in the reboot movies anyway.

    That's not trolling imo. It's a statement of opinion. I happen to wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment.

    Thanks!

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    We all have different opinions. ;)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    I hated M in SF (but then I wasn't too fond of her in TWINE either).
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Clair Dowar clearly has all of you fools in her pocket. How pathetic. :P
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    I too wasn't sorry to see Dench's M go. She was servicable for awhile, but frankly became a little of a b**** (funny how we're not allowed to use words on these forums that appear in the books and films themselves) as the movies wore on.

    When Q took that little elevator thing in TWINE it was much more moving for me, as well as being much more understated.

    The Tennyson speech was probably the most pretentious moment of the entire Bond franchise, I'll give you that.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Sark wrote: »
    When Q took that little elevator thing in TWINE it was much more moving for me, as well as being much more understated.

    Couldn't agree more. It gets me every time. M's death did nothing for me, perhaps because it was prefaced by a gag from Craig. The Vesper death was light years ahead of M's in terms of emotional weight. Ironic given most people think Mendes is far superior to Campbell - because Oscar said so.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,686
    Wait, M's death was supposed to be emotional? I was clapping on my seat the first time I saw it. :D
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 7,653
    Wait, M's death was supposed to be emotional? I was clapping on my seat the first time I saw it. :D

    What does that say about your misogynistic nature? ;)
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    Lest anyone think I'm just a Skyfall hater, one of the few items other than clothing I'll fit into my suitcase when I move abroad next month is one of the posters that they gave out at the 12:01am IMAX showings.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I at least shed a tear for M. ;)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    DrGorner wrote: »
    I at least shed a tear for M. ;)
    I cry for Bond, for he will not cry for himself.
  • edited January 2015 Posts: 11,425
    Sark wrote: »
    I too wasn't sorry to see Dench's M go. She was servicable for awhile, but frankly became a little of a b**** (funny how we're not allowed to use words on these forums that appear in the books and films themselves) as the movies wore on.

    When Q took that little elevator thing in TWINE it was much more moving for me, as well as being much more understated.

    The Tennyson speech was probably the most pretentious moment of the entire Bond franchise, I'll give you that.

    Totally agree. The Tennyson speech is bloody awful IMO. Not only totally out of place in Bond but totally out of place in any movie. Quoting your A level poetry texts does not make you a great screenwriter/director. Lazy, pretentious drivel. M deserved to be shot there and then for her condescending arrogance and stupidity. God I was glad when she finally copped it - seven movies too late but better late than never!
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