How did Eve qualify as a field agent in the first place?

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Comments

  • edited December 2012 Posts: 11,425
    I agree with you to an extent. I assure you I am not the kind of cinema goer who is generally drawn to mindless popcorn movies who needs everything spelled out. I am struck by the difference in the quality between the storytelling in SF, which is disjointed and the tight but rich storytelling in a film like American Beauty. Also I am not convinced that P+W are always fully in control of what they are doing. The torture scenes at the start of DAD seem to have virtually no significance to the rest of the plot. I'd argue they've done a similar thing in SF. Bond 'dies' and presumably goes through some existential crisis while bumming around on the beach and then comes back and before long is right as rain. If you find the explanation that you've given for this transformation a rich and satisfying piece of cinematic storytelling then that's obviously your prerogative, but I found it deeply disappointing and a missed opportunity to tell a genuinely complex and interesting tale of fall, return and redemption.
  • Posts: 158
    RC7 wrote:
    I've been on the site for a short time know but what the hell is going on. There's so many personal attacks, look people lets just agree to disagree. If we all thought the same the world would be a sterile place, I'm thinking 1984 (George Orwell).

    Basically if you raise an issue about SF on here there are a small band of people who take it upon themselves to make it personal. That's despite the fact none of the negative comments I've seen have been personal, purely observations directed at the film. You're right, it would be sterile.

    By people who take themselves too seriously.

  • People disagree, it's what makes a forum, or place like this. Would be damn boring if everyone had the same opinion. Just have to not get in too far and keep things civilized etc

    Some didn't like the film from what I can ascertain from certain responses to this particular thread. Fair enough, I can appreciate that, more power to you. Without straying too far off course but I remember from before, there was significant talk about the plausibility of Bond where Craig is concerned. I'll be truthful, the opening half hour was disjointed and muddled to an extent. Some needless scenes inserted and other absurdities before Craig turns up 'ready for duty' at M's London residence

    Could go on, but I don't want to rip into a movie for little bits and pieces of irritation for a film I thought overall was a job well done. It wasn't quite the superlative film release this year that some had expected or talked up before time though
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 129
    I think like a lot of threads that end up with members criticising SKYFALL the end result is that we end up discussing the overall film & not the original question, but what the F**K, C'est la vie.

    To get back to the original theme though, I've expressed my thought's on Eve as a character & I still think she's believable for reasons I've explained already.

    So as we're off theme my opinion of the film as a whole is that it's OK, better than most, however not the masterpiece some critics would have you believe, I have a view why the critics have taken so strongly to it, basically it's down to the fact that it's superior faults & all to the vast majority of the tosh that Hollywood is currently releasing as main stream entertainment.

    Basically when all around is grossly inferior, mediocrity seems to excel.

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,473
    I think like a lot of threads that end up with members criticising SKYFALL the end result is that we end up discussing the overall film & not the original question, but what the F**K, C'est la vie.

    To get back to the original theme though, I've expressed my thought's on Eve as a character & I still think she's believable for reasons I've explained already.

    So as we're off theme my opinion of the film as a whole is that it's OK, better than most, however not the masterpiece some critics would have you believe, I have a view why the critics have taken so strongly to it, basically it's down to the fact that it's superior faults & all to the vast majority of the tosh that Hollywood is currently releasing as main stream entertainment.

    Basically when all around is grossly inferior, mediocrity seems to excel.

    Try to watch the language, and there's no need pointing out flaws with the threads and then supporting aforementioned problems. Keep it on topic. Sure, things get off track from time to time, but it usually only takes an on topic response or two to get it back to the way it should be.

    Like I've said, as incompetent as Eve appears to be, there are still times when she does what she's supposed to. She keeps M fully informed of the mission and her not having a proper shot in Turkey, and she saves Bond's life by taking out the thug on the walkway in Macau. Also, she's good at shaving.
  • Good job!, I think Bond deserves a medal for bravery, letting a women who shot him near his jugular with a cut through razor.
  • doubleonothingdoubleonothing Los Angeles Moderator
    Posts: 864
    I fail to see how she is incompetent.

    Yes, she shot Bond, but only on direct orders to take a shot she knew (and reported) was not clean.

    I'm trying to think where else she may have made a mistake, but I can't really think of one.

    Perhaps some people just have an issue with a woman in the field?
  • Posts: 11,425
    I think like a lot of threads that end up with members criticising SKYFALL the end result is that we end up discussing the overall film & not the original question, but what the F**K, C'est la vie.

    To get back to the original theme though, I've expressed my thought's on Eve as a character & I still think she's believable for reasons I've explained already.

    So as we're off theme my opinion of the film as a whole is that it's OK, better than most, however not the masterpiece some critics would have you believe, I have a view why the critics have taken so strongly to it, basically it's down to the fact that it's superior faults & all to the vast majority of the tosh that Hollywood is currently releasing as main stream entertainment.

    Basically when all around is grossly inferior, mediocrity seems to excel.

    I think you sum it up perfectly. What passes for quality film-making these days would have the past masters of cinema turning in their graves. SF is indeed a notch above the usual Hollywood garbage, but I agree, is no where near as good as a lot of critics have made out.

    Regarding Eve, I can take her or leave her. Silva and Severine were far more interesting characters who deserved a lot more screen time. I don't think Eve's back story was so interesting that it deserved quite as much time as it got in SF.
  • Getafix wrote:
    I agree with you to an extent. I assure you I am not the kind of cinema goer who is generally drawn to mindless popcorn movies who needs everything spelled out. I am struck by the difference in the quality between the storytelling in SF, which is disjointed and the tight but rich storytelling in a film like American Beauty. Also I am not convinced that P+W are always fully in control of what they are doing. The torture scenes at the start of DAD seem to have virtually no significance to the rest of the plot. I'd argue they've done a similar thing in SF. Bond 'dies' and presumably goes through some existential crisis while bumming around on the beach and then comes back and before long is right as rain. If you find the explanation that you've given for this transformation a rich and satisfying piece of cinematic storytelling then that's obviously your prerogative, but I found it deeply disappointing and a missed opportunity to tell a genuinely complex and interesting tale of fall, return and redemption.

    I would say the story to be told was the one about M, not Bond. To me, Skyfall centers around how M manages her decisions. She essentially orders high-probability death sentences for two individuals for the hope of "the greater good." There lies the contrast: you have Bond, who even knowing what went on when he was shot, he decides to come back and join the ranks and then you have Silva who is so immersed in revenge from a similar situation. M is very human though. You know that M does care when making those decisions which is illustrated with her relationship with Bond. (The bulldog is a prime symbol of this.) The train sequence also illustrates it, because from what information she is given, M orders the shot as a last resort option. From that point forward Skyfall plays out the political and personal consequences of those decisions through Bond's eyes.

    I don't see how the storytelling is disjointed. They've just recently toyed with loyalty/existential crisis; the story I think you're looking for has been already told in Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace. The "fall" is Casino Royale, and the "return and redemption" is Quantum of Solace. This time, that process has been matured and resolved. I think the Skyfall story inherently assumes that the audience knows that tale and builds off of it focusing on the flipside of that situation: M & Silva.
  • Getafix wrote:
    I think like a lot of threads that end up with members criticising SKYFALL the end result is that we end up discussing the overall film & not the original question, but what the F**K, C'est la vie.

    To get back to the original theme though, I've expressed my thought's on Eve as a character & I still think she's believable for reasons I've explained already.

    So as we're off theme my opinion of the film as a whole is that it's OK, better than most, however not the masterpiece some critics would have you believe, I have a view why the critics have taken so strongly to it, basically it's down to the fact that it's superior faults & all to the vast majority of the tosh that Hollywood is currently releasing as main stream entertainment.

    Basically when all around is grossly inferior, mediocrity seems to excel.

    I think you sum it up perfectly. What passes for quality film-making these days would have the past masters of cinema turning in their graves. SF is indeed a notch above the usual Hollywood garbage, but I agree, is no where near as good as a lot of critics have made out.

    Regarding Eve, I can take her or leave her. Silva and Severine were far more interesting characters who deserved a lot more screen time. I don't think Eve's back story was so interesting that it deserved quite as much time as it got in SF.

    I agree about Silva & Severine, especially Silva, I think the fact that the character doesn't appear until after the hour mark is a disgrace in a Bond film, but Eve was OK maybe a bit too much but it was setting it up for future films.
  • As far as Eve backstory goes, I could take it or leave it. I appreciate giving Moneypenny a backstory and I think it fits alright with the context of Skyfall. I do think it hurts the film on an individual basis, but helps the series as a whole. Just my opinion of course.
  • KerimKerim Istanbul Not Constantinople
    Posts: 2,629
    I'm going to go on a limb here and say probably the same way that Bond qualified.

    Well, Bond's initial qualifications that is.
  • Posts: 11,425
    JamesStock wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    I agree with you to an extent. I assure you I am not the kind of cinema goer who is generally drawn to mindless popcorn movies who needs everything spelled out. I am struck by the difference in the quality between the storytelling in SF, which is disjointed and the tight but rich storytelling in a film like American Beauty. Also I am not convinced that P+W are always fully in control of what they are doing. The torture scenes at the start of DAD seem to have virtually no significance to the rest of the plot. I'd argue they've done a similar thing in SF. Bond 'dies' and presumably goes through some existential crisis while bumming around on the beach and then comes back and before long is right as rain. If you find the explanation that you've given for this transformation a rich and satisfying piece of cinematic storytelling then that's obviously your prerogative, but I found it deeply disappointing and a missed opportunity to tell a genuinely complex and interesting tale of fall, return and redemption.

    I would say the story to be told was the one about M, not Bond. To me, Skyfall centers around how M manages her decisions. She essentially orders high-probability death sentences for two individuals for the hope of "the greater good." There lies the contrast: you have Bond, who even knowing what went on when he was shot, he decides to come back and join the ranks and then you have Silva who is so immersed in revenge from a similar situation. M is very human though. You know that M does care when making those decisions which is illustrated with her relationship with Bond. (The bulldog is a prime symbol of this.) The train sequence also illustrates it, because from what information she is given, M orders the shot as a last resort option. From that point forward Skyfall plays out the political and personal consequences of those decisions through Bond's eyes.

    I don't see how the storytelling is disjointed. They've just recently toyed with loyalty/existential crisis; the story I think you're looking for has been already told in Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace. The "fall" is Casino Royale, and the "return and redemption" is Quantum of Solace. This time, that process has been matured and resolved. I think the Skyfall story inherently assumes that the audience knows that tale and builds off of it focusing on the flipside of that situation: M & Silva.

    I know. I guess I still can't quite accept that they made a Bond movie that is actually about M. And that they made M the least sympathic she's ever been. So it's a film about a not very nice woman messing up. I think I just struggled to care enough what happened to her.
  • doubleonothingdoubleonothing Los Angeles Moderator
    Posts: 864
    Man, we are so far off topic here.
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 2,081
    Good job!, I think Bond deserves a medal for bravery, letting a women who shot him near his jugular with a cut through razor.

    He simply shows her (quite rightly) that he's not blaming her for having been shot.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I can't really say that I would be mad at Eve myself. I mean, just look at her.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Where is this supposed big backstory for Eve that some people are talking about?

    She's in the PTS driving around in comma with both Bond and HQ
    She takes an unclean shot, hitting Bond
    We see her back at the new mi6 flirting with Bond and apologising for shooting him
    We next see her in Macau giving Bond a shave and then appearing fleetingly at the casino
    We next see her at the Enqiry
    Then we last see her at the end of the movie

    Putting all of the above into context of the film, to say she has a big backstory is a massive overstatement. Eve initially being a field agent and then opting to take a desk job is a nice and welcome touch for such a staple character in the series and what makes it even better is that it never once feels intrusive to the overall story going on.

  • Posts: 4,762
    Excellent question! Wish I had the answer for you; my friend and I were laughing at her level of incompetence in the fieldwork throughout the movie!
  • 00Beast wrote:
    Excellent question! Wish I had the answer for you; my friend and I were laughing at her level of incompetence in the fieldwork throughout the movie!

    While i am not all too much into Womanslib and these kind of Things and also don't dig her I would like to add,that
    when it comes to incompetence Harris is way down the line far beyond M, Q and Bond (not
    counting the Script Writers of course)! If i was going in harms way i'd rather have her at my side than all those other morons, which stumble their Way through the Movie, especially this fool who claimes he is 007 and who only reason d'etre seems to mess Things up! You can't blame her for shooting Bond.This was an extremly difficult shot and she told M at least twice. And by the way - Bond wouldn't even made it out of the Casino, if she had not helped him! Come to think about it, he would not have been able to shave himself without her.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    00Beast wrote:
    Excellent question! Wish I had the answer for you; my friend and I were laughing at her level of incompetence in the fieldwork throughout the movie!

    While i am not all too much into Womanslib and these kind of Things and also don't dig her I would like to add,that
    when it comes to incompetence Harris is way down the line far beyond M, Q and Bond (not
    counting the Script Writers of course)! If i was going in harms way i'd rather have her at my side than all those other morons, which stumble their Way through the Movie, especially this fool who claimes he is 007 and who only reason d'etre seems to mess Things up! You can't blame her for shooting Bond.This was an extremly difficult shot and she told M at least twice. And by the way - Bond wouldn't even made it out of the Casino, if she had not helped him! Come to think about it, he would not have been able to shave himself without her.

    :))
  • doubleoego wrote:
    Where is this supposed big backstory for Eve that some people are talking about?

    That's the question I'd like to ask too.

    Think: A rookie who was sent to aid an experienced 00-Agent on a high-level mission. Shouldn't she be just securing the perimeters? Just like that inept agent with Bond in Madagascar? And the fact that M allowed her to "take the bloody shot"... a candidate for the 00 Section, perhaps? Nevertheless, she must be pretty good in her own way, and is an in-your-face statement from the DC Bond canon: "Our Moneypenny can kick serious a***"
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,570
    Getafix wrote:
    I understand the plot, I think.

    What I don't really understand is how Bond gets to keep his job afterwards.

    The same way he got to keep his job after LTK I guess.
  • Posts: 11,425
    NicNac wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    I understand the plot, I think.

    What I don't really understand is how Bond gets to keep his job afterwards.

    The same way he got to keep his job after LTK I guess.

    I don't remember him getting M killed in LTK.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,570
    Getafix wrote:
    NicNac wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    I understand the plot, I think.

    What I don't really understand is how Bond gets to keep his job afterwards.

    The same way he got to keep his job after LTK I guess.

    I don't remember him getting M killed in LTK.

    M had to take time out to travel to South America to repremand him, so Bond beat his security up and turned rogue.

    He then got two Chinese agents killed.

    But it was ok because Felix soon forgot all about the girl he had married a few days earlier, made a miraculous recovery from being half eaten by a shark and was planning a fishing trip with James.

    Serious Bond films eh? ;-)
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Lol I forgot all about that nonsense in LTK.
  • Posts: 11,189
    BAIN and others keep telling me that the first half of DAD is overlooked classic Bond. May be they're onto something?

    I don't think I ever said that - I said it was watchable.
  • Posts: 11,425
    NicNac wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    NicNac wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    I understand the plot, I think.

    What I don't really understand is how Bond gets to keep his job afterwards.

    The same way he got to keep his job after LTK I guess.

    I don't remember him getting M killed in LTK.

    M had to take time out to travel to South America to repremand him, so Bond beat his security up and turned rogue.

    He then got two Chinese agents killed.

    But it was ok because Felix soon forgot all about the girl he had married a few days earlier, made a miraculous recovery from being half eaten by a shark and was planning a fishing trip with James.

    Serious Bond films eh? ;-)

    Fair point. What I've actually said in previous posts is that LTK is a tipping point for me where the characterisation begins to go a bit awry. From the first time I watched it I never found the whole going rogue element very believable and in particular the scene where he kicks M's security and runs off into the bushes. I always felt that was not something Bond would do - or at least not in that way. One thing I like about that scene though - M telling Bond "we're not a bl**dy country club" or something to that effect.
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 12,837
    NicNac wrote:
    M had to take time out to travel to South America to repremand him, so Bond beat his security up and turned rogue.

    But then he got the job done in the end.
    NicNac wrote:
    He then got two Chinese agents killed.

    He was captured by them and some bad guys killed them. It's hardly Bonds fault is it.
    NicNac wrote:
    But it was ok because Felix soon forgot all about the girl he had married a few days earlier, made a miraculous recovery from being half eaten by a shark and was planning a fishing trip with James.

    Serious Bond films eh? ;-)

    I think more than a few days had passed. He was still in hopsital. I doubt he'd forgotten Della. He was planning a fishing trip.... So what?
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,570
    He should've been planning his wife's funeral.

    Look I'm not really bothered, I don't watch Bond films to pick them apart when they don't make sense, otherwise I would be here for a month. Just trying to make the point that even the most earnest and grounded Bond films don't necessarilly make sense just because they are earnest and grounded.

  • edited December 2012 Posts: 11,425
    Isn't the 'fishing trip' meant as a bit of a dark joke by Felix - i.e. he's gonna need a bigger boat if he's going to catch that shark. I think that's how I've alway taken it.
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