The PIERCE BROSNAN Appreciation thread - Discuss His Life, His Career, His Bond Films

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  • Posts: 11,425
    TND is Brosnan's best Bond film. No doubt about it. Put kd Lang's song at the start and it's possibly a mid ranking entry.

    Sounds like Brozza said some pretty silly things about OHMSS and Laz.

  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    edited October 2019 Posts: 5,185
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Just a couple of TND-related videos I did. The first one is a trailer, the second one isn't quite one, but it's something I felt compelled to do.




    Love those two, great work, especially the second one. Is that music from the film? I can't place it.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,999
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I think we all recognise that pretty much everything on here is opinion.

    Not everything is an opinion. "This actor is bad" is an opinion. "John Smith thinks this actor is bad" is a fact that can be true or false. You said:
    Well his films and his performances weren't great so I think yes there is an extent to which his losing the role in 2002 or whenever it was is his fault.
    The producers were the ones who fired Brosnan in 2002 or whenever, so if he lost the role because his performances weren't good, it must have been because the producers held that opinion, or audiences did. But what reason do you have to think that was the case?

    Not to be insistent, but it makes no sense.

    Brosnan being asked not to return was due to a change of winds more than after a box office flop. In fact, DAD has been a tremendous success and back in 2003 it looked like EON wanted Brosnan to return and MGM expected to do another film in the style of DAD. The Jinx spin-off was planed and Falco's return. Their change of minds began when they got the rights of CR and saw that franchises were beginning to be rebooted (Batman with Nolan, for example), so they felt they had the perfect excuse to reboot Bond with an adaptation of the first Fleming novel, which would imply the casting of a new actor.

    I explain this more thoroughly in my book.
    https://millenniumbond007.wixsite.com/millenniumbond

    Two things.

    1) The Jinx spin-off got cancelled not because EON changed their minds but rather because MGM got cold feet over wanting to do a female lead action film after the underperformance of the Charlies Angels and Lara Croft sequels that came out in 2003. This is partly why there was a four year delay between Bond films, as EON had spent time developing the Jinx film with Stephen Frears attached to direct, and they were understandably upset about the plug being pulled on them when they were planning production at the beginning of 2004. A lot of time essentially wasted. Not all was lost, as apparently elements of the Jinx script was actually carried over onto the CR adaptation (I'm not sure which elements specifically).

    2) EON actually retained the rights to CASINO ROYALE as far back as 1999. For whatever reason, it was decided not to use that as the basis for Brosnan's fourth film. When time came to come up with a concept for Bond 21 as Brosnan's fifth film, Purvis & Wade were initially only going to use some elements from the novel rather than actually adapt the story, similar to how DAD loosely used elements of Fleming's MOONRAKER novel. Later EON would decide it was time to move onto a new direction and revive Wilson's pitch of a Bond Begins story he conceived in 1986, which pretty much meant Brosnan was out. This all actually happened before BATMAN BEGINS came out, but the success of that film certainly gave confidence in EON that the timing was just right.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,999
    Getafix wrote: »
    @Getafix Haven't seen the interview but can guarantee he will 100% be talking about Lazenby. He has nothing but respect for Dalton. I remember reading about the GE press conference and he apparently said something about admiring what Dalton had done, peeling back the layers, and wanted to continue that. He also said in the James Bond unmasked book that Dalton played it "right down the f***ing line".

    Lazenby on the other hand he's had beef with in the past. And really whenever anyone is talking about a bad James Bond I think you can assume they're on about Lazenby. He's the more generally forgotten actor who only did one.

    He lost the role because he was used as a scapegoat for the issues of DAD (easier to sell a change in direction with a clean break) after all his suggestions for the direction they should be going in over the years seemed to be ignored (he didn't have the clout with BB that Craig does, he was Cubby's choice). I know you don't like him but he was very popular at the time, lots of "best since Connery" comments, and his films were successful. It isn't fair to say he wasn't good enough.

    I'd missed or forgotten Brozza had a beef with Laz. Wonder who started it. If Pierce said OHMSS was rubbish then he had it coming tbh. Plus he's totally wrong, of course.

    He never said OHMSS was rubbish. What he apparently said was that if he could remake one Bond film he'd remake that one, because he thought the script/story was great but it was "just sad" that it starred Lazenby (should note that I can't actually find a source for this, it's just something @DCisared mentioned when he started the thread about their beef). He also said something about not wanting to be "the next George Lazenby" around that time (that bit I think is on record, I've heard that before). Then GE came out and Lazenby said something about Brosnan's Bond being a wimp compared to his and how "Bond shouldn't be nice" and it all kicked off from there.

    So Brosnan did start it to be fair and it was a bit of an undignified move. But to be honest as much as I like Lazenby (I've said before that he's the closest to Fleming's Bond and could have been the best with time), I think his comments prove that his performance in OHMSS was entirely down to Hunt. The best thing about Lazenby is that he showed Bond's vulnerability and human side in a way Connery's Bond never did. He wasn't just a hard bastard. He had a real romantic side with Tracey and looked genuinely scared for his life in some of the action scenes. But him saying that Brosnan's Bond was too girly and his Bond was harder just makes me think that none of that was really down to him. There's a myth about Fleming's Bond being this brutal heartless cold blooded killer because that's how Connery played it, but if you read the books he's actually a much more human and romantic character than that.

    And, probably sacrelige on here, but I genuinely think Brosnan would have been better in OHMSS too. I know that a lot of people will think no, he would have overacted and ruined that final scene. But Brosnan is a real directors actor imo. He's very restrained in GE and I think that's down to Campbell, who got another brilliant performance out of him in The Foreigner. Hunt would have reigned in his more OTT character actor tendancies (aren't there stories about him being a very strict director?) and he would have smashed that final scene. He knows grief like that.

    Wouldn't have liked to have seen it actually remade in his era though. Imagine Spotiswood or Tamahori directing it. Would have been a complete mess and Brosnan wouldn't have been a patch on Lazenby. But if you put him in the same film Lazenby got, with Hunt directing, then yeah. I think he'd have done a better job.

    This sounds about right, given that TWINE was developed to serve as Brosnan's own OHMSS installment, as that was the kind of Bond film he wanted to work on as an actor. It's a shame though because I really wish TWINE was as good as OHMSS, as I think Brosnan could have pulled off that kind of film. Wrong director, wrong writers. Too many punches pulled. The thing that made OHMSS work was that it was a tragedy, and TWINE did too much to undercut that tragedy due to EON fear of turning away its audiences by deviating from the known formula. It's a shame because EON earned the right to try something more daring after having won back audiences with GE and TND. But oh well, they eventually got that confidence for Craig's run. Just too bad it only happened after Brosnan was out.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Hilarious that TWINE was supposed to beq his OHMSS. Hard to think of 2 more different movies
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,999
    Well, all the homages to OHMSS are pretty plain in the film. Heck, it's right there in the very title.
  • Posts: 11,425
    What are the homages?
  • Posts: 6,682
    00Agent wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Just a couple of TND-related videos I did. The first one is a trailer, the second one isn't quite one, but it's something I felt compelled to do.




    Love those two, great work, especially the second one. Is that music from the film? I can't place it.

    Glad you liked them! Yes, the music is Bike Shop Fight, for my money, one of the best pieces in the score.
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    Posts: 5,185
    mattjoes wrote: »
    00Agent wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Just a couple of TND-related videos I did. The first one is a trailer, the second one isn't quite one, but it's something I felt compelled to do.




    Love those two, great work, especially the second one. Is that music from the film? I can't place it.

    Glad you liked them! Yes, the music is Bike Shop Fight, for my money, one of the best pieces in the score.

    Thanks. It's a great piece of music.
  • Getafix wrote: »
    What are the homages?

    I guess the title, but I think the main thing @MakeShiftPython was on about was their attempt to give Bond a more serious relationship for the first time since Tracey. Barbara or Micheal even made the comparison around the time it came out I think, said something like "he thought she was Tracey, but instead she turned out to be Blofeld" (not 100% on that but I'm sure I've read something along those lines on here before).

    I don't think it's entirely successful because the film is still hamstrung a bit by the formula, but I can buy into Bond falling for her personally. The romance gets a lot of stick as unbelieveable and I guess they could have done more to sell people on it since we hadn't seen him get like that over 90% of the other Bond girls, but I think it's very Fleming. The book Bond was much more of a romantic and had a thing for wounded/vulnerable types. And the twist, her actually being a bad guy preying on that weakness, is brilliant. The Renard/Bond/Elektra dynamic is fascinating imo. One of the best villain concepts of the series.

    TWINE in general doesn't get enough credit. It's rough around the edges but it's full of original ideas. It's a shame that the Craig era has made it age poorly I think by taking a similar approach but commiting to it 100% and by running a lot of those fresh ideas (MI6 being attacked, more personal story with plenty of M) into the ground, because I think it's actually a really brave and forward thinking film in a lot of ways. And the Renard/Elektra stuff still holds up. She's easily one of the best villains of the series and he's one of the most interesting characters.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 7,889
    TWINE is actually my overall favorite of Brosnan’s Bond films . Is it perfect? No, but what Bond film is ? Even Connery’s first three have flaws.
    Pierce look fantastic and has settled nicely into the role. It’s got a good story and interesting characters. I’m not even as bothered by Denise Richards as are some.
    If there is one thing that I would have changed, it would have been to have a more imposing actor in the role of Renard.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,999
    Getafix wrote: »
    What are the homages?

    I guess the title, but I think the main thing @MakeShiftPython was on about was their attempt to give Bond a more serious relationship for the first time since Tracey. Barbara or Micheal even made the comparison around the time it came out I think, said something like "he thought she was Tracey, but instead she turned out to be Blofeld" (not 100% on that but I'm sure I've read something along those lines on here before).

    I've read that quote before, which I think was basically Purvis & Wade's pitch that EON loved and signed them on for.
    TWINE in general doesn't get enough credit. It's rough around the edges but it's full of original ideas. It's a shame that the Craig era has made it age poorly I think by taking a similar approach but commiting to it 100% and by running a lot of those fresh ideas (MI6 being attacked, more personal story with plenty of M) into the ground, because I think it's actually a really brave and forward thinking film in a lot of ways. And the Renard/Elektra stuff still holds up. She's easily one of the best villains of the series and he's one of the most interesting characters.

    TWINE easily had the strongest premise of the Brosnan films, which makes it doubly a shame that it didn't turn out as strong as its potential promised. I remember when hearing the ideas of what SKYFALL was going to be about I was genuinely worried EON would foul it up again because it didn't sound like the kind of Bond film I wanted at all in 2012. To my surprise they pulled it off because as you said they were far more committed to those ideas and taking chances.

    It makes me imagine the kind of film TWINE could have been if EON were as brave as they became in 2012. To truly honor OHMSS, they should have committed to a more downer ending. The Christmas Jones stuff always felt tacked in as if to adhere to formula of Bond bedding a lady at the end, and it sort of takes away from the sadness of Bond having to kill Elektra, the only woman he opened up to and understandably was livid over feeling exploited by her. There's something interesting in the idea of Bond and Renard fighting over a woman. Bond has a shoulder injury that makes him feel pain all the time, whereas Renard is a man who can't feel pain. Despite that difference, both were manipulated by Elektra, so you think they'd be able to understand each other to some extent. These are all wonderful ideas, and in the end it all feels undercooked.

    As for OHMSS homages. Besides the actual title being a direct lift, there's the idea of Bond opening up to a seemingly damaged woman as he's always been drawn to "a bird with a wing down" as Fleming wrote. She directly asks if he ever lost a loved one, which he brushes off to remind you the kind of closed person Bond is, and what a big deal it is for him to let his guard down for her later on. Like in OHMSS, they even go out for a ski, accompanied by a David Arnold score playing up a romantic cue. It wouldn't be complete without Bond being attacked by goons out on the snowy mountains. And how does it end? With an avalanche. There's probably other touches I'm overlooking, but it's probably well enough they did only just these before moving onto subverting it with Elektra's true nature.

    And how perfect was the timing? TWINE just happened to come out on time for OHMSS's 30th anniversary.
  • Agent_99Agent_99 enjoys a spirited ride as much as the next girl
    Posts: 3,099
    There's a whole Twitter thread on TWINE/OHMSS here:

  • mxationmxation San Diego, CA
    Posts: 2
    The Movie Ninja just created a brand new James Bond Quadrilogy trailer for Pierce Brosnan and his films. Check it out here
  • Agent_47Agent_47 Canada
    Posts: 330
    I will always be a staunch defender of TWINE. It boasts one of the more complex plots and some of the most wonderfully tragic characters in the series. It builds a narrative around these relationships and vendettas in a way most Bond films only wish they could.

    One of my favorite things about this film is its devotion to characters and drama, but it does so without ever letting it overtake the action/blockbuster qualities that are expected with a Bond film (unlike Skyfall)

    You could always say that it didn't explore certain aspects as much as it could have but I'd still argue it does more with these elements than other entries do with even fewer ideas.

    Everything ties together in a complex web of details that lends itself to repeat viewings. I've heard people say the ski chase serves no purpose to the plot when in reality it does.

    Having Russian parahawks attempt to kill Bond and Elektra, stealing plutonium from a Russian nuclear decommission site and using a former Russian Nuclear submarine to fulfill their goals, leaving a trail of evidence away from Elektra and Renard.

    The film is packed with small details that lots of people seem to overlook. Criticizing TWINE for not doing anything with the attack at MI6 but failing to recognize that this is not a dropped ball but intentional. That attack is meant set up the plot, not serve as some overarching theme for the film. It is the catalyst for which the rest of the story springs from.

    Another thing, Renard being the only henchman to be characterized with a past and personal connection to the main villain rather than a one note caricature like so many others.

    Bond failing the pretitle sequence in spectacular fashion leaving the money gone, MI6 in ruin, the assassin dead and Bond injured and let's not forget the Q boat in shambles.

    It just goes on and on. The amount of criticism this one gets that I believe I could shed some more positive light on is just insane.

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,999
    Well Elektra wasn’t being attacked in the ski chase, as that was her own orchestration. She was setting up Bond for an ambush.

    As far as pointless action scenes go, it’s only the boat chase that sticks out like a sore thumb. After the bomb blows there’s literally no reason for everything in the rest in the PTS to happen once you understand the entire scheme by the end of the film.
  • Agent_47Agent_47 Canada
    Posts: 330
    Well Elektra wasn’t being attacked in the ski chase, as that was her own orchestration. She was setting up Bond for an ambush.

    As far as pointless action scenes go, it’s only the boat chase that sticks out like a sore thumb. After the bomb blows there’s literally no reason for everything in the rest in the PTS to happen once you understand the entire scheme by the end of the film.

    I agree with the boat chase. But hey, most Bond films have atleast one action scene that feels forced. Hardly worth holding against the movie.
  • Agent_47Agent_47 Canada
    Posts: 330
    Well Elektra wasn’t being attacked in the ski chase, as that was her own orchestration. She was setting up Bond for an ambush.

    As far as pointless action scenes go, it’s only the boat chase that sticks out like a sore thumb. After the bomb blows there’s literally no reason for everything in the rest in the PTS to happen once you understand the entire scheme by the end of the film.

    And yes, Elektra orchestrated the attack but story wise it's meant to implicate that the Russians were trying to kill her as well rather than Renard.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited December 2019 Posts: 7,999
    Certainly, as the movie provides plenty of other things for me to hold against it. ;)

    One oddity with the snow chase though was Bond’s assumption that the parahawks would only come for him, even though at that point he presumed they were after Elektra. It’s more of a plot convenience so Bond at no point ever comes to the realization that she actually set him up.

    That said, it’s hard to argue the snow chase is pointless when it’s really supposed to mirror OHMSS, reminding you of it in order to subvert your expectations of Elektra’s true nature. There’s a ton of references to OHMSS that I think is handled well at times.

    There’s a lot of great material in TWINE to make it a special Bond film, but that’s why it’s my most disappointing film because with all the good foundations laid out the movie either doesn’t do it well or do enough. Like the contrast between Bond and Renard. Here is Bond who is still injured and feeling pain when you hit his pressure point, whereas Renard feels no pain and can push himself in a way Bond can’t. It feels like a set up for when Bond has to do something that would physically cause him great pain (a very Fleming touch) in order to stop Renard, but it turns out it was only a plot device (along with “no point in living” making it a double whammy) to make Bond suspect Renard and Elektra were working together.
  • Agent_47Agent_47 Canada
    Posts: 330
    Certainly, as the movie provides plenty of other things for me to hold against it. ;)

    One oddity with the snow chase though was Bond’s assumption that the parahawks would only come for him, even though at that point he presumed they were after Elektra. It’s more of a plot convenience so Bond at no point ever comes to the realization that she actually set him up.

    That said, it’s hard to argue the snow chase is pointless when it’s really supposed to mirror OHMSS, reminding you of it in order to subvert your expectations of Elektra’s true nature. There’s a ton of references to OHMSS that I think is handled well at times.

    There’s a lot of great material in TWINE to make it a special Bond film, but that’s why it’s my most disappointing film because with all the good foundations laid out the movie either doesn’t do it well or do enough. Like the contrast between Bond and Renard. Here is Bond who is still injured and feeling pain when you hit his pressure point, whereas Renard feels no pain and can push himself in a way Bond can’t. It feels like a set up for when Bond has to do something that would physically cause him great pain (a very Fleming touch) in order to stop Renard, but it turns out it was only a plot device (along with “no point in living” making it a double whammy) to make Bond suspect Renard and Elektra were working together.

    I'm not implying that the film is perfect or a fantastic piece of cinema, but to hold such things against it when you could easily apply those same criticisms to 3/4 of the series seems a bit ridiculous.

    The arguement that somebody holds it to a higher standard because it had more potential is garbage as far as I am concerned.

    If any of this comes across as hostile than I'm sorry in advance. Was not my intent.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,999
    When it projects itself as being Brosnan’s OHMSS, that’s a pretty high bar to me. It’s not like this a Roger Moore lark of a film that I should be more lenient over critically, even though it ends with an inappropriately placed TSWLM/MR gag.
  • Agent_47Agent_47 Canada
    Posts: 330
    When it projects itself as being Brosnan’s OHMSS, that’s a pretty high bar to me. It’s not like this a Roger Moore lark of a film that I should be more lenient over critically, even though it ends with an inappropriately placed TSWLM/MR gag.

    It certainly takes inspiration from Majesty's and If you want to hold it to OHMSS standards than I can see your disappointment. It's clearly not in the same league as OHMSS, Casino Royale, From Russia With Love. But as I said, it's on par with 3/4 of this franchise. I think it deserves a bit more of a fair shake in comparison.

    But this is just the rambling of a disgruntled TWINE enthusiast. As I said in another thread... it's cold out here when you love this film.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,999
    Cherish it!
  • edited December 2019 Posts: 2,436
    Never really being convinced by Brosnan's performance in TWINE.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,999
    I’m not a fan of a lot of performances in TWINE, which I put the blame on Apted.

    For all the flack Tamahori gets, I think he got THE best performance of Brosnan’s run because that was truly the first time I felt he owned the character in a way I didn’t feel he quite got in his first three. It’s just too bad it has to happen on THAT film.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited December 2019 Posts: 15,686
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,999
    It’s Sony’s, not Disney’s. Disney already did one four years ago.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,686
    It’s Sony’s, not Disney’s. Disney already did one four years ago.

    Thanks @MakeshiftPython, that will teach me not to post straight after waking up. :-))
  • Posts: 6,682
    I trust Pierce will sing again.
  • Getafix wrote: »
    @Getafix Haven't seen the interview but can guarantee he will 100% be talking about Lazenby. He has nothing but respect for Dalton. I remember reading about the GE press conference and he apparently said something about admiring what Dalton had done, peeling back the layers, and wanted to continue that. He also said in the James Bond unmasked book that Dalton played it "right down the f***ing line".

    Lazenby on the other hand he's had beef with in the past. And really whenever anyone is talking about a bad James Bond I think you can assume they're on about Lazenby. He's the more generally forgotten actor who only did one.

    He lost the role because he was used as a scapegoat for the issues of DAD (easier to sell a change in direction with a clean break) after all his suggestions for the direction they should be going in over the years seemed to be ignored (he didn't have the clout with BB that Craig does, he was Cubby's choice). I know you don't like him but he was very popular at the time, lots of "best since Connery" comments, and his films were successful. It isn't fair to say he wasn't good enough.

    I'd missed or forgotten Brozza had a beef with Laz. Wonder who started it. If Pierce said OHMSS was rubbish then he had it coming tbh. Plus he's totally wrong, of course.

    He never said OHMSS was rubbish. What he apparently said was that if he could remake one Bond film he'd remake that one, because he thought the script/story was great but it was "just sad" that it starred Lazenby (should note that I can't actually find a source for this, it's just something @DCisared mentioned when he started the thread about their beef). He also said something about not wanting to be "the next George Lazenby" around that time (that bit I think is on record, I've heard that before). Then GE came out and Lazenby said something about Brosnan's Bond being a wimp compared to his and how "Bond shouldn't be nice" and it all kicked off from there.

    So Brosnan did start it to be fair and it was a bit of an undignified move. But to be honest as much as I like Lazenby (I've said before that he's the closest to Fleming's Bond and could have been the best with time), I think his comments prove that his performance in OHMSS was entirely down to Hunt. The best thing about Lazenby is that he showed Bond's vulnerability and human side in a way Connery's Bond never did. He wasn't just a hard bastard. He had a real romantic side with Tracey and looked genuinely scared for his life in some of the action scenes. But him saying that Brosnan's Bond was too girly and his Bond was harder just makes me think that none of that was really down to him. There's a myth about Fleming's Bond being this brutal heartless cold blooded killer because that's how Connery played it, but if you read the books he's actually a much more human and romantic character than that.

    And, probably sacrelige on here, but I genuinely think Brosnan would have been better in OHMSS too. I know that a lot of people will think no, he would have overacted and ruined that final scene. But Brosnan is a real directors actor imo. He's very restrained in GE and I think that's down to Campbell, who got another brilliant performance out of him in The Foreigner. Hunt would have reigned in his more OTT character actor tendancies (aren't there stories about him being a very strict director?) and he would have smashed that final scene. He knows grief like that.

    Wouldn't have liked to have seen it actually remade in his era though. Imagine Spotiswood or Tamahori directing it. Would have been a complete mess and Brosnan wouldn't have been a patch on Lazenby. But if you put him in the same film Lazenby got, with Hunt directing, then yeah. I think he'd have done a better job.

    This sounds about right, given that TWINE was developed to serve as Brosnan's own OHMSS installment, as that was the kind of Bond film he wanted to work on as an actor. It's a shame though because I really wish TWINE was as good as OHMSS, as I think Brosnan could have pulled off that kind of film. Wrong director, wrong writers. Too many punches pulled. The thing that made OHMSS work was that it was a tragedy, and TWINE did too much to undercut that tragedy due to EON fear of turning away its audiences by deviating from the known formula. It's a shame because EON earned the right to try something more daring after having won back audiences with GE and TND. But oh well, they eventually got that confidence for Craig's run. Just too bad it only happened after Brosnan was out.
    You are right about this because Skyfall did what the producers were scared to do with TWINE. Imagine if the character Christmas Jones didn’t exist and it was just Electra the only Bond girl. It would have been one of the best bond films in history.
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