Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • edited January 2014 Posts: 11,189
    I would agree that Lord, Hedison and Wright are probably the best Felix's but I'm not sure Hedison is the greatest of actors (in fairness I don't know if Lord was either). There are bits in LTK when he overacts a little (his yell at Sanchez, "see you in HELLL" and the "Della" cry).

    Though I do like his line: "he was married once...but it was a long time ago"
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 12,837
    Murdock wrote:
    Actually Desmond was reading cue cards. It's mentioned somewhere. Give the guy a break. He was in his 80's. It doesn't ruin the scene or enjoyment. And it did give us one of the funniest moments in GE. "Don't touch that!...that's my lunch."

    I think Brosnan probably had the best Q scenes. He had good chemistry with Desmond and his goodbye in TWINE is one of the saddest moments of the series. When it comes to Q scenes I think it's

    1) Brosnan
    2) Moore
    3) Dalton (based purely off LTK)
    4) Craig (I'm sure he'll be higher in a few films time)
    5) Connery (for some reason I just never really found his interactions with Q to be anything special)
  • Posts: 11,189
    Murdock wrote:
    Actually Desmond was reading cue cards. It's mentioned somewhere. Give the guy a break. He was in his 80's. It doesn't ruin the scene or enjoyment. And it did give us one of the funniest moments in GE. "Don't touch that!...that's my lunch."

    I think Brosnan probably had the best Q scenes. He had good chemistry with Desmond and his goodbye in TWINE is one of the saddest moments of the series.

    Agreed, Broz and Desmond worked very well together, especially in TND and TWINE. Love Brosnan's tender smile when Q goes down into the floor. Broz may not be completely satisfied with his films but he should be honoured he was involved in the last scene that featuring the longest reoccurring character/actor.
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 11,425
    I actually felt sorry for Brosnan as Desmond was clearly past it - even in GE, really. Bit like if they'd let Dench stay on for another 3 films. I know they like to be loyal and Desmond was a legend, but I still think he should have retired a bit earlier.

    I suppose one of the nice things about him still being there in the Brosnan era was that it provided practically the only acting continuity between the Dalton era. The other being Joe Don Baker! Bit like how Dench provided a sort of continuity between Brosnan and Craig.
  • edited February 2014 Posts: 381
    Great thread and some great thoughts on what could have been.

    My guess is that a GoldenEye with Dalton would have been a good film, but it wouldn't have made the money that it made with Brosnan. It looked better and received far more promotion then LTK, so it may have made more money then LTK, but the general public just didn't take to Dalton.

    Brosnan was just the perfect Bond for the 90s.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,698
    Brosnan was just the perfect Bond for the 90s.
    A decadent agent of a corrupt Western power.
    :)>-
  • chrisisall wrote:
    Brosnan was just the perfect Bond for the 90s.
    A decadent agent of a corrupt Western power.
    :)>-

    I was thinking because he was a meterosexual who looked like he just walked out of a spa.

  • chrisisall wrote:
    Brosnan was just the perfect Bond for the 90s.
    A decadent agent of a corrupt Western power.
    :)>-

    I was thinking because he was a meterosexual who looked like he just walked out of a spa.

    True. Very 90's-ish.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,698
    I was thinking because he was a meterosexual who looked like he just walked out of a spa.
    Does that indicate a randy Bond of unusually short stature?
    :-??
  • edited February 2014 Posts: 381
    chrisisall wrote:
    I was thinking because he was a meterosexual who looked like he just walked out of a spa.
    Does that indicate a randy Bond of unusually short stature?
    :-??

    HA, no. I think that the era of the meterosexual started in the 90s and Brosnan kind of escapulated the look.
  • There's something I was wondering about Dalton. I don't know if you commented it or watched it this way. Don't you think that average moviegoers just saw Dalton as being a bit... Er... Emo for that time, which to them underrated his tremendous acting talents? It's just a weird thought that crossed my mind...
  • Posts: 7,653
    There's something I was wondering about Dalton. I don't know if you commented it or watched it this way. Don't you think that average moviegoers just saw Dalton as being a bit... Er... Emo for that time, which to them underrated his tremendous acting talents? It's just a weird thought that crossed my mind...

    After a long reign of the charming Roger Moore and the rugged handsome Sean Connery Dalton might have come across as somewhat cold and no charm whatsoever. It is not as if the 007 movies changed direction it just changed lead performer. And it would have been a B..... to follow up the ever popular Roger Moore, the man is a born performer and PR's wet dream come true.
    I think that Brosnan would have been accepted easier following Moore in his footsteps by being similar in some sense. Dalton was too big a change for that time. imho.

  • Dalton was Daniel Craig before there was Daniel Craig, in some ways.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Dalton was Daniel Craig before there was Daniel Craig, in some ways.

    I think the Dalts tried to do some of the same things DC is now attempting. For my money, I think Dalton was better - there's a greater complexity to his performances than Craig's. Craig is very much the blunt instrument.
  • Posts: 4,813
    Agreed- which is exactly why I believe that the only reason Dalton 'failed' is because of the years in which he played Bond.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,698
    Getafix wrote:
    I think the Dalts tried to do some of the same things DC is now attempting. For my money, I think Dalton was better - there's a greater complexity to his performances than Craig's. Craig is very much the blunt instrument.
    @Getafix, I don't know if this is common knowledge, but Dalton is my favourite Bond. :D
    And TLD & LTK my # 1 & 2 movies.
    Just in case my endless pro-Brosnan rantings of late may have made peeps here think otherwise...
  • Posts: 11,425
    chrisisall wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    I think the Dalts tried to do some of the same things DC is now attempting. For my money, I think Dalton was better - there's a greater complexity to his performances than Craig's. Craig is very much the blunt instrument.
    @Getafix, I don't know if this is common knowledge, but Dalton is my favourite Bond. :D
    And TLD & LTK my # 1 & 2 movies.
    Just in case my endless pro-Brosnan rantings of late may have made peeps here think otherwise...

    Someone has to stick up for the Broz!
  • edited March 2014 Posts: 4,813
    Getafix wrote:
    Someone has to stick up for the Broz!
    I wonder if he likes that nickname ;)

    s_51c61cd1bb01a817d1041f4f.jpg
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,698
    Who don't like Broz? Or their occasional removal>?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    chrisisall wrote:
    Who don't like Broz? Or their occasional removal>?

    The removal of Broz has been very gratifying in more ways than one. ;)
  • Goldeneye certainly would have been better with Dalton as both a Bond movie and a movie due to his establishment as having played the part before and also as this film does contain a couple of nods to TLD, while the original script would have connected LTK by having mentioned his evaluator as being sent upon his return to active duty. Certainly PB hadn't toned up much for the role until TND, which isn't regarded as much of a good film by many (not all) fans.

    Lastly, the plot of the film was suitable to TD's dramatic approach. LTK was all about how far Bond went to do something for a friend. GE has TD's ghost all over it. Ultimately, he wasn't the "money Bond" but in the end, both PB and TD were people who had to be reapproached for the role at different significantly past times, and they got their chance for at least a couple of films each.

    Let PB's attitude to the role, lack of involvement of getting his hands dirty with production and critique of talking behind his bosses backs serve as a case in point. He could have had a 5th film: the studios and fans liked the idea, but instead it got to a point where DAD turned out the way it did all OTT and there was a lack of character-driven films, many critics including fans were just getting tired. So the only way to make it better was to hire someone with a solid dramatic background who could take ownership and share responsibility of the roles and films to work with the producers instead of against, and here we are today.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Difference being that TD turned it down at least twice and PB was gagging for it.

    Totally agree about GE - would have been great to see TD in that movie. He would have taken it to a whole other level. A face off between Dalton and Bean would have been cool. They might even have got someone better for the vilain role.
  • edited April 2014 Posts: 86
    From the way I see it, everybody flocked to see The Living Daylights to see how Dalton fare as the new Bond.

    Most do not like what they saw: a politically correct Bond (way before the term as even coined) with a ho-hum story and a sizable amount did not return for Licence to Kill, which ironically, at least to me, was a better, edgier movie.

    But Licence To Kill looked as if the studios have slashed the film's budget and have the feel of a made for TV movie despite the jaw dropping finale with the tanker trucks.

    Then came the legal problems which stalled the series for five years.

    Perhaps that was a blessing in disguise...fans and movie goers just needed a break and that hiatus whetted people's appetite and expectations for GoldenEye.
  • edited April 2014 Posts: 7,653
    I do not think that Dalton would have improved on Brosnan being in GE, his days were numbered and over.

    As in evidence in the next article.


    http://hmssweblog.wordpress.com/2014/03/29/licence-to-kills-25th-007-flops-in-the-u-s/

    Licence to Kill’s 25th: 007 flops in the U.S.

    Posted on March 29, 2014 by Bill Koenig


    Licence to Kill, which celebrates its 25th anniversary this year, is mostly known for a series of “lasts” but also for a first.

    It was the last of five 007 films directed by John Glen, the most prolific director in the series; the last of 13 Bond films where Richard Maibaum participated in the writing; it was the last with Albert R. Broccoli getting a producer’s credit (he would only “present” 1995′s GoldenEye); it was the last 007 movie with a title sequence designed by Maurice Binder; and the it was last 007 film where Pan Am was the unofficial airline of the James Bond series (it went out of business before GoldenEye).

    It was also the first that was an unqualified flop in the U.S. market.

    Bond wasn’t on Poverty Row when Licence to Kill began production in 1988. But neither did 007 travel entirely first class.

    Under financial pressure from Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer (which acquired half the franchise after buying United Artists earlier in the decade), Eon Productions moved the home base of the production to Mexico from Pinewood Studios.

    Joining Timothy Dalton in his second (and last) outing as Bond was a cast mostly known for appearing on U.S. television, including Anthony Zerbe, Don Stroud, David Hedison (his second appearance as Felix Leiter), Pricilla Barnes, Rafer Johnson, Frank McRae as well as Las Vegas performer Wayne Newton.

    Meanwhile, character actor Robert Davi snared the role of the film’s villain, with Carey Lowell and Carey Lowell and Talisa Soto as competing Bond women.

    Michael G. Wilson, Broccoli’s stepson and co-producer, took the role as lead writer because a 1988 Writers Guild strike made Richard Maibaum unavailable. Maibaum’s participation didn’t extend beyond the plotting stage. The teaser trailer billed Wilson as the sole writer but Maibaum received co-writer billing in the final credits.

    Wilson opted for a darker take, up to a point. He included Leiter having a leg chewed off by a shark from the Live And Let Die novel. He also upped the number of swear words compared with previous 007 entries. But Wilson hedged his bets with jokes, such as Newton’s fake preacher and a scene where Q shows off gadgets to Bond.

    Licence would be the first Bond film where “this time it’s personal.” Bond goes rogue to avenge Leiter. Since then, it has almost always been personal for 007. Because of budget restrictions, filming was kept to Florida and Mexico.

    The end product didn’t go over well in the U.S. Other studios had given the 16th 007 film a wide berth for its opening weekend. The only “new” movie that weekend was a re-release of Walt Disney Co.’s Peter Pan.

    Nevertheless, Licence finished an anemic No. 4 during the July 14-16 weekend, coming in behind Lethal Weapon 2 (in its second weekend), Batman (in its fourth weekend) and Honey, I Shrunk the Kids (also fourth weekend).

    Glen and Maibaum were done with Bond, the latter being part of the 007 series since its inception.

    Initial pre-production of the next 007 film proceeded without the two series veterans. Wilson wrote a treatment in 1990 for Bond 17 with Alfonse Ruggiero but that story was never made.

    That’s because Broccoli would enter into a legal fight with MGM that meant Bond wouldn’t return to movie screens for another six years. By the time production resumed, Eon started over, using a story by Michael France as a beginning point for what would become GoldenEye. Maibaum, meanwhile, died in early 1991.

    Today, some fans like to blame MGM’s marketing campaign or other major summer 1989 movies such as Batman or Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. But Licence came out weeks after either of those blockbusters. In the end, the U.S. audience didn’t care for Licence. The movie’s total U.S. box office of $34.7 million didn’t match Batman’s U.S. opening weekend of $40.5 million. Licence’s U.S. box office was almost a third less than its 007 predecessor, The Living Daylights.
    Licence to Kill did better in other markets. Still, Licence’s $156.2 million in worldwide ticket sales represented an 18 percent decline from The Living Daylights.

    For Dalton, Glen, Maibaum and even Broccoli (he yielded the producer’s duties on GoldenEye because of ill health), it was the end of the road.
  • Posts: 11,425
    As much as I liked the Daltonator, I can easily see why LTK was not a big hit in the US. It's a real oddball of a Bond film - not necessarily a bad thing, but it goes a long way to explaining why it flopped in the States. I appreciate it more now than I did on first viewing, but still don't rank it amongst my favourites. TLD is better in pretty much every department, apart from main villain IMHO.

    I am quite glad that US tastes no longer quite have the same sway as they used to though. I think there's more of an appetite for slightly more quirky films these days - something that has chimed well with the Craig era.
  • Posts: 1,052
    I do love LTK but it is interesting to note the often mentioned box office competion was actually from films that had been on realease weeks before LTK came out, i guess it but this often used excuse to bed.
  • Posts: 2,400
    I think it's wrong to blame Dalton, though. Blame the film, the plot, the unique tone, the artifacts of Miami Vice/Scarface that permeate the film, etc. But to blame Dalton for LTK not doing well at the box office isn't right.
  • Posts: 7,653
    I think it's wrong to blame Dalton, though. Blame the film, the plot, the unique tone, the artifacts of Miami Vice/Scarface that permeate the film, etc. But to blame Dalton for LTK not doing well at the box office isn't right.

    Brosnan & Moore get blamed for their movies as well, even if they have shown in productions outside of EON that they are capable of so much more too.

    But I think blaming Dalton as part of the problem in this case might be right for a bit, I do think that Daltons 007 was just not right person for the general audiences in the US. At that time one of the more important marketplaces for any movie.

  • edited April 2014 Posts: 19,339
    The US audiences didnt really know who TD was,he was mainly a theatre actor here in the UK.
    He didnt have the draw and familiarity that Moore and Brosnan had,and by the time Craig came along,times and tastes had changed.
  • edited April 2014 Posts: 11,189
    I know I've already posted this somewhere else on the forum but can't remember where. If its further up this thread forgive me.

    LTK was released the same year as Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade, a relatively light adventure that relied heavily on the double act between its two loved leading stars. When watching TLC over Christmas I remember thinking it had more in common with Octopussy and thought "wow...LTK didn't really have much of a chance".

    As much as I like Dalton I can see why he doesn't have the same leading man appeal as Ford and Connery.

    In the case of CR two things helped the film:

    1. Curiosity. People wanted to see if Craig would f*** up.

    2. The genuinely high quality production.
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