"Attempting re-entry", Moonraker appreciation thread

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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2023 Posts: 14,957
    Stacey feels one of the more frustrating, because they'd just had a slightly more mature co-star in Octopussy (and I don't mean mature just in age but attitude) and Roger really benefitted from that- I'm not sure why they didn't go down that path again with her casting.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited August 2023 Posts: 23,547
    mtm wrote: »
    Stacey feels one of the more frustrating, because they'd just had a slightly more mature co-star in Octopussy (and I don't mean mature just in age but attitude) and Roger really benefitted from that- I'm not sure why they didn't go down that path again with her casting.

    Correct. Cubby was allegedly smitten by Roberts. I can see why -- we can all see why -- but looks aren't everything. In truth, she wasn't 'Jane Seymour' young at the time of casting; Tanya was in het mid '30s, but she looked 22 and not a day older in my opinion. Her role was rather childlike too, helpless and at times utterly useless. A more mature actress in a more mature part could have worked.

    I wonder how things had played out if Roberts and Jones had switched roles... (Not that Tanya could have convinced us as a bodybuilding type, of course. But it's AVTAK. Anything goes.)
  • Posts: 2,899
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Stacey feels one of the more frustrating, because they'd just had a slightly more mature co-star in Octopussy (and I don't mean mature just in age but attitude) and Roger really benefitted from that- I'm not sure why they didn't go down that path again with her casting.

    Correct. Cubby was allegedly smitten by Roberts. I can see why -- we can all see why -- but looks aren't everything. In truth, she wasn't 'Jane Seymour' young at the time of casting; Tanya was in het mid '30s, but she looked 22 and not a day older in my opinion. Her role was rather childlike too, helpless and at times utterly useless. A more mature actress in a more mature part could have worked.

    I wonder how things had played out if Roberts and Jones had switched roles... (Not that Tanya could have convinced us as a bodybuilding type, of course. But it's AVTAK. Anything goes.)

    Some of the Bond girls during this stretch of the series can be a bit odd in terms of casting. On paper the likes of Stacy, Melina in FYEO, and even Kara in TLD should come across as much more world weary. They're young, often out of their depth or have been deceived by the villains, but their characters have an innate toughness and resourcefulness to them that isn't quite reflected in the qualities that the actresses bring to the screen. Which is a shame. When you had an actress like Maud Adams who was able to bring that world weariness to her performance I'd argue she actually played better off of Moore.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,957
    I think Melina's not bad, but could be better, yes. And weirdly her and Roger don't really seem to connect- Stacey is actually marginally better on that front I'd say.
  • Posts: 2,899
    I think there's a sense that by AVTAK they leaned a bit more consciously into Moore's Bond as an older, more gentle figure with women (and in terms of his Bond in general one could argue). Even in FYEO I get the sense the script suggests Melina and Bond have a much more passionate relationship than the more subtle, romantic one Moore plays up in the actual film. By AVTAK you have moments like Bond watching over a sleeping Tracy/protecting her into the night, which plays a bit better with an ageing Moore.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2023 Posts: 3,390
    007HallY wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Stacey feels one of the more frustrating, because they'd just had a slightly more mature co-star in Octopussy (and I don't mean mature just in age but attitude) and Roger really benefitted from that- I'm not sure why they didn't go down that path again with her casting.

    Correct. Cubby was allegedly smitten by Roberts. I can see why -- we can all see why -- but looks aren't everything. In truth, she wasn't 'Jane Seymour' young at the time of casting; Tanya was in het mid '30s, but she looked 22 and not a day older in my opinion. Her role was rather childlike too, helpless and at times utterly useless. A more mature actress in a more mature part could have worked.

    I wonder how things had played out if Roberts and Jones had switched roles... (Not that Tanya could have convinced us as a bodybuilding type, of course. But it's AVTAK. Anything goes.)

    Some of the Bond girls during this stretch of the series can be a bit odd in terms of casting. On paper the likes of Stacy, Melina in FYEO, and even Kara in TLD should come across as much more world weary. They're young, often out of their depth or have been deceived by the villains, but their characters have an innate toughness and resourcefulness to them that isn't quite reflected in the qualities that the actresses bring to the screen. Which is a shame. When you had an actress like Maud Adams who was able to bring that world weariness to her performance I'd argue she actually played better off of Moore.

    For me, from what I've seen of Kara, she's meant to be a professional musician, a joyful one, yet an innocent, naive woman who happened to got involved in Bond's mission, unbeknownst to her, but she's also a bit nosy, and there's that demeanor to her.

    She's not world weary, in my view.

    I think her trait was supposed to be a combination of Vesper Lynd and Lupe Lamora, at least.

    On paper, Kara was this naive, innocent, yet professional musician who got involved in the spy business (to whom she had no knowledge about), so there's Bond to help her get out of that circle, but in the midst of the story, Bond was falling in love with her because of her positive, yet nosy attitude.

    So, I think, there's that point in the film, the problem was Maryam D'Abo was miscast, because I think the role was meant to be a bit matured, a woman who's in her mid-30's (34/35 or something like that), a professional, now with D'Abo, it's hard to buy her into that, she looked like a student, a girl in her 20's, she made the character a bit childish, even though she's really not supposed to be that.

    I think this is where Tanya Roberts would've fit instead of the Stacey Sutton character, because there's that naivety in her, that innocence, and girly attitude that the Kara character was supposed to have (she's not even used in Bond's world).
  • Posts: 2,899
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Stacey feels one of the more frustrating, because they'd just had a slightly more mature co-star in Octopussy (and I don't mean mature just in age but attitude) and Roger really benefitted from that- I'm not sure why they didn't go down that path again with her casting.

    Correct. Cubby was allegedly smitten by Roberts. I can see why -- we can all see why -- but looks aren't everything. In truth, she wasn't 'Jane Seymour' young at the time of casting; Tanya was in het mid '30s, but she looked 22 and not a day older in my opinion. Her role was rather childlike too, helpless and at times utterly useless. A more mature actress in a more mature part could have worked.

    I wonder how things had played out if Roberts and Jones had switched roles... (Not that Tanya could have convinced us as a bodybuilding type, of course. But it's AVTAK. Anything goes.)

    Some of the Bond girls during this stretch of the series can be a bit odd in terms of casting. On paper the likes of Stacy, Melina in FYEO, and even Kara in TLD should come across as much more world weary. They're young, often out of their depth or have been deceived by the villains, but their characters have an innate toughness and resourcefulness to them that isn't quite reflected in the qualities that the actresses bring to the screen. Which is a shame. When you had an actress like Maud Adams who was able to bring that world weariness to her performance I'd argue she actually played better off of Moore.

    For me, from what I've seen of Kara, she's meant to be a professional musician, a joyful one, yet an innocent, naive woman who happened to got involved in Bond's mission, unbeknownst to her, but she's also a bit nosy.

    She's not world weary.

    I think her trait was supposed to be a combination of Vesper Lynd and Lupe Lamora, at least.

    On paper, Kara was this naive, innocent, yet professional musician who got involved in the spy business (to whom she had no knowledge about), so there's Bond to help her get out of that circle, but in the midst of the story, Bond was falling in love with her because of her positive, yet nosy attitude.

    So, I think, there's that point in the film, the problem was Maryam D'Abo was miscast, because I think the role was meant to be a bit matured, a woman who's in her mid-30's (34/35 or something like that), a professional, now with D'Abo, it's hard to buy her into that, she looked like a student, a girl in her 20's, she made the character a bit childish, even though she's really not supposed to be that.

    I think this is where Tanya Roberts would've fit instead of the Stacey Sutton character, because there's that naivety in her, that innocence, and girly attitude that the Kara character was supposed to have (she's not even used in Bond's world).

    I think the problem as you said is that the casting of Kara leans too much into the character's sense of naivety (which in part comes from D'Abo's youth, but not wholly. She just brings a very specific innocence to the role). I never got the sense from a script perspective that she was a childish character. Naive to an extent (although she is very much deceived by both Koskov and Bond, so maybe that's not entirely fair to her), but as you said there's an implication she's older on paper - mid 30s most likely - and to fall head over heels for Koskov and to pose as an assassin I'd argue the character had to have a) a loneliness in their life that someone like Koskov could come in and fill, and b) a resourcefulness and confidence in order to even pretend to be an assassin. That's what I mean by the character needing to be more world weary. As it is, I always find her annoying because she comes off not as a sympathetic character who is played by these men and eventually comes into her own, but is instead a very young and rather stupid woman.

    Personally, I think a character like Bond is more likely to fall for someone he finds interesting, someone who may even have a darkness to them.
  • Posts: 1,883
    007HallY wrote: »
    I think there's a sense that by AVTAK they leaned a bit more consciously into Moore's Bond as an older, more gentle figure with women (and in terms of his Bond in general one could argue). Even in FYEO I get the sense the script suggests Melina and Bond have a much more passionate relationship than the more subtle, romantic one Moore plays up in the actual film. By AVTAK you have moments like Bond watching over a sleeping Tracy/protecting her into the night, which plays a bit better with an ageing Moore.

    But the problem with that sleeping in the rocking chair scene is it's eventually all left behind by the end with the two of them in the shower. The formula dictated that Bond ends up in the cliched romantic clinch with the cheap lines. It's why QoS got it right by not having Bond end up in a shower with Camille after their ordeal. I see a lot of people missing those days of the formula, but they had a time and place and there are ways to make future films entertaining and not crossing into cliche.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,979
    I wouldn't change the casting of Kara at all. She and Dalton have a great, believable chemistry that is only matched or surpassed a couple of other times in the series.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,970
    Just for fun I did some googling and discovered the following about their ages in the Bond films.

    Jane Seymour was 22 in LALD Roger was 46! I don't think this is a big deal in the film and haven't heard too many in the Bond community play up the gap

    Britt Ekland was 32 in TMWTGG

    Barbara Bach was 31 and Lois Chiles was 32. Roger was 50 and 52 years old for their films.

    Carole Bouquet was 24 and Lynn Holly Johnson was 23 when they starred opposite a 54 year old Roger Moore.

    Maud Adams was 38 when she appeared in OP while Roger was 56.

    Finally Tanya Roberts was 36 when she appeared opposite a 58 year old Roger.

    I find it amazing that Carole and Lynn Holly were so close in age. Roger always had some large gaps in age with his leading ladies. This may have been an issue, but Roger always looked younger until AVTAK where it seemed Father Time caught up with him.

    Yes the Bond formula demanded that Bond get the girl and at the end they are intimate. So even films like Eyes where there really isn't much chemistry or flirting, suddenly at the end there is love!

  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2023 Posts: 3,390
    thedove wrote: »
    Just for fun I did some googling and discovered the following about their ages in the Bond films.

    Jane Seymour was 22 in LALD Roger was 46! I don't think this is a big deal in the film and haven't heard too many in the Bond community play up the gap

    Britt Ekland was 32 in TMWTGG

    Barbara Bach was 31 and Lois Chiles was 32. Roger was 50 and 52 years old for their films.

    Carole Bouquet was 24 and Lynn Holly Johnson was 23 when they starred opposite a 54 year old Roger Moore.

    Maud Adams was 38 when she appeared in OP while Roger was 56.

    Finally Tanya Roberts was 36 when she appeared opposite a 58 year old Roger.

    I find it amazing that Carole and Lynn Holly were so close in age. Roger always had some large gaps in age with his leading ladies. This may have been an issue, but Roger always looked younger until AVTAK where it seemed Father Time caught up with him.

    Yes the Bond formula demanded that Bond get the girl and at the end they are intimate. So even films like Eyes where there really isn't much chemistry or flirting, suddenly at the end there is love!

    Actually, it's one of the cons for me about LALD, yes, even though Moore looked young in that film compared to Connery when he'd started in Dr. No, I think, it's still uncomfortable to watch him flirting with Seymour, because her age really showed in that film.

    The age gap was really obvious.
    BT3366 wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I think there's a sense that by AVTAK they leaned a bit more consciously into Moore's Bond as an older, more gentle figure with women (and in terms of his Bond in general one could argue). Even in FYEO I get the sense the script suggests Melina and Bond have a much more passionate relationship than the more subtle, romantic one Moore plays up in the actual film. By AVTAK you have moments like Bond watching over a sleeping Tracy/protecting her into the night, which plays a bit better with an ageing Moore.

    But the problem with that sleeping in the rocking chair scene is it's eventually all left behind by the end with the two of them in the shower. The formula dictated that Bond ends up in the cliched romantic clinch with the cheap lines. It's why QoS got it right by not having Bond end up in a shower with Camille after their ordeal. I see a lot of people missing those days of the formula, but they had a time and place and there are ways to make future films entertaining and not crossing into cliche.

    And the books always ended up with Bond not getting the girl, so, I think the Craig Era just played on that aspect.

    The Classic Era Bond, tried to make it different by having the opposite, the other way around.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2023 Posts: 14,957
    Yeah I think Seymour looked really young where the others perhaps didn't. And the virginity storyline doesn't help.
  • Posts: 12,269
    I mean, when it comes to Bond “getting” or “not getting the girl,” I’d say the novels are pretty well-split.
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