Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 1,469
    About the one-liners, shortly after reading these entertaining posts, I went to YouTube to listen to some Bond songs and the graphics on one read only, "Not from where I'm standing". Couldn't help but laugh out loud, and Roger's delivery of that is so perfect. And it was the same screenwriters, Richard Maibaum and Tom Mankiewicz, on both DAF and TMWTGG.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,690
    Thrasos wrote: »
    About the one-liners, shortly after reading these entertaining posts, I went to YouTube to listen to some Bond songs and the graphics on one read only, "Not from where I'm standing". Couldn't help but laugh out loud, and Roger's delivery of that is so perfect. And it was the same screenwriters, Richard Maibaum and Tom Mankiewicz, on both DAF and TMWTGG.

    That Guy Hamilton trilogy is really the golden era in terms of one-liners, even if some ("Alimentary", for one example) might be missed by many. For me at least, it's key to the extreme rewatchability of those films. I can watch any of those movies twice in a row any day of the week!
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited August 2021 Posts: 17,804
    Thrasos wrote: »
    About the one-liners, shortly after reading these entertaining posts, I went to YouTube to listen to some Bond songs and the graphics on one read only, "Not from where I'm standing". Couldn't help but laugh out loud, and Roger's delivery of that is so perfect. And it was the same screenwriters, Richard Maibaum and Tom Mankiewicz, on both DAF and TMWTGG.

    That Guy Hamilton trilogy is really the golden era in terms of one-liners, even if some ("Alimentary", for one example) might be missed by many. For me at least, it's key to the extreme rewatchability of those films. I can watch any of those movies twice in a row any day of the week!

    Cubby Broccoli pointed out to Guy Hamilton the fact that some in the cinema audience were laughing at that line was merely because they were doctors and actually got what it meant!
  • Posts: 14,824
    Yeah, Broadchest was intentionally bad enough as a way of Bond teasing Vesper, and this is after he commented “I hope you gave your parents hell for that”.

    And did Bond mention the name after at the hotel reception or not? If not he might have made up that name on the spot to tease her. Either way, they both know it's an awful name and make a point about it.
  • Posts: 1,469
    Oh, it's real all right. :)

    YhIj4Uq.jpg
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited August 2021 Posts: 17,804
    It sounds more like a name from a 1960s spy craze spoof film taking off Bond than a name that should be in a modern Bond film. See, for example, Miss Goodthighs in the spoof version of Casino Royale (1967). I know it's only meant as a joke, but still. It doesn't really fit well with the tone of the surrounding story and film which is very dark and serious.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,690
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    It sounds more like a name from a 1960s spy craze spoof film taking off Bond than a name that should be in a modern Bond film. See, for example, Miss Goodthighs in the spoof version of Casino Royale (1967). I know it's only meant as a joke, but still. It doesn't really fit well with the tone of the surrounding story and film which is very dark and serious.

    Kind of related to this, and certainly an unpopular opinion, one of the reasons I don't really care for either of Martin Campbell's films is the palpable embarrassment they seem to have about being James Bond movies. Goldeneye in its bizarre and rather inaccurate deconstruction of the James Bond character, and CR in its refusal to resemble a James Bond film at all. Skyfall has a moment as well, with Q's "exploding pen" quip, but it doesn't saturate the film.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    It sounds more like a name from a 1960s spy craze spoof film taking off Bond than a name that should be in a modern Bond film. See, for example, Miss Goodthighs in the spoof version of Casino Royale (1967). I know it's only meant as a joke, but still. It doesn't really fit well with the tone of the surrounding story and film which is very dark and serious.

    I don’t think CR is as dark and serious as people hype it up. It’s still ultimately about a government agent sanctioned to spend their money in a game of luck. It may have a grittier aesthetic, but it’s still ultimately a fantasy spy film.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2021 Posts: 14,949
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »

    I don’t agree, it’s not played that way.

    Sorry I'm so argumentative :))

    Think of it this way: "Pussy Galore" means "a substantial amount of vagina". "Plenty O'Toole" means " a substantial amount of penis". It is a direct reference to that specific name, and reversed in a way that makes the name less appealing to James Bond. If some other campy spy movie of the era had a character called "Plenty O'Toole", it would be more easily recognized as parody. Or imagine the villain of DAF was named Mrs Yes, and her lair was full of signs like "Employees MUST wash hands". It's obvious parody.

    Ugh. More?
    I know that it's a reversal on Pussy: it just isn't making fun of it. It's not played as being ridiculous in Bond's world (unlike the Broadchest gag).
    I think you're just misreading this somehow. I mean, there's no way Bond was "drawing a line between her dad having a big tallywhacker and her growing a fine pair of funbags".

    Not as scripted, but as played it leaves the audience with that impression. Partially because the size of her dad's dick is just such a weird thing for Bond to comment on. And her name is just strange anyway. If she were a drag queen it would make more sense...
    This isn't the first time I've pursued a ridiculous argument about a Mankiewicz line. A comment of mine was once read on JBR and didn't persuade one of the hosts: I was asserting that Bond's LALD line, "Well I certainly wouldn't have killed you before" is an obvious joke about necrophilia (it is). :))

    It's a joke about Bond wanting a shag. I think you're really misreading that one!

    "I wouldn't have killed you before (I had sex with you)" is to say I wouldn't bonk your corpse. It does not mean "I wouldn't have killed you without having sex with you" or "I wouldn't have killed you until I had sex with you." Basically, if having sex with you and killing you are both going to happen, the order of events should be clear for a normal person. :))

    'A normal person'? Are you being needlessly insulting again? It's just a silly conversation about old movie lines: calm down.
    And yes, if you take the line out of context, that's what it means. However in the actual film it is in reply to "You wouldn't kill me after we...": Bond's line is replying to the word 'after' in that sentence. After / before - the two are antonyms, that's how the line works, it's a direct reply to what Hendry says and how she says it.
    It has nothing to do with necrophilia: it means that Bond wanted to shag her, nothing more. You're taking it way too literally and missing the context.
    But anyway, nothing about parody means that something has to be "played as being ridiculous in Bond's world". Nothing in Austin Powers seems to be addressed by the character as being ridiculous or out of place to him.

    I don't think you quite understand what parody is. Anyway, you're moving towards insults for some reason, so this is done.

    Ludovico wrote: »
    Regarding Stephanie Broadchest, at least it's lampshaded by Vesper and it's acknowledged by the characters that it's a terrible name.

    Precisely, it's literally a joke that Bond is making.

    And it works in a way that M's line cut from TWINE about hollowed-out volcanoes and big-breasted women wouldn't have: I think they were right to remove that.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    I think you’re being overly sensitive mtm. Like you said, it’s a silly conversation, let’s not perceive things as adversarial. We’re all just folks talking Bond in an online equivalent of a pub. Have a pint, or ice water. :)>-
  • edited August 2021 Posts: 631
    I think George Martin’s score is crap. It takes me out of the film more than Eric Serra’s score did for GE.

    I disagree, but I can easily see why some people don’t like it. Personally I think the scores of the more recent films are much worse, but then I am a grumpy old man.

    The most controversial opinion I have is that only the Eon films up to and including MR are authentic James Bond films. All films from AVTAK onwards are fanfiction. Yes they are officially approved, canon, very enjoyable and watchable films, but they are still fanfiction.

    I have no logical arguments or evidence to support this other than my own feelings.

    It feels to me that something was lost after MR. I cannot put my finger on it at all, perhaps an aesthetic, or a confidence, or a swagger or something. But to me everything after MR is trying to be a James Bond film whereas everything up to MR is a James Bond film.

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    I think George Martin’s score is crap. It takes me out of the film more than Eric Serra’s score did for GE.

    I disagree, but I can easily see why some people don’t like it. Personally I think the scores of the more recent films are much worse, but then I am a grumpy old man.

    The most controversial opinion I have is that only the Eon films up to and including MR are authentic James Bond films. All films from AVTAK onwards are fanfiction. Yes they are officially approved, canon, very enjoyable and watchable films, but they are still fanfiction.

    I have no logical arguments or evidence to support this other than my own feelings.

    It feels to me that something was lost after MR. I cannot put my finger on it at all, perhaps an aesthetic, or a confidence, or a swagger or something. But to me everything after MR is trying to be a James Bond film whereas everything up to MR is a James Bond film.

    You see. I actually see it as DN thru AVTAK being the “classic era” in that it was largely dominated by Connery and Moore playing an unflappable agent that was always cool as a cucumber and never had a hair out of place. Beginning with Dalton brought a new take on the character with Bond having more of a personal stake and allowed to be more emotionally shaken in a way Connery and Moore typically weren’t. It’s never been the same since.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2021 Posts: 14,949
    I think you’re being overly sensitive mtm. Like you said, it’s a silly conversation, let’s not perceive things as adversarial. We’re all just folks talking Bond in an online equivalent of a pub. Have a pint, or ice water. :)>-

    Maybe, I really try to take people as if they're joking but I couldn't work that one out.
    I think George Martin’s score is crap. It takes me out of the film more than Eric Serra’s score did for GE.

    I disagree, but I can easily see why some people don’t like it. Personally I think the scores of the more recent films are much worse, but then I am a grumpy old man.

    The most controversial opinion I have is that only the Eon films up to and including MR are authentic James Bond films. All films from AVTAK onwards are fanfiction. Yes they are officially approved, canon, very enjoyable and watchable films, but they are still fanfiction.

    I have no logical arguments or evidence to support this other than my own feelings.

    It feels to me that something was lost after MR. I cannot put my finger on it at all, perhaps an aesthetic, or a confidence, or a swagger or something. But to me everything after MR is trying to be a James Bond film whereas everything up to MR is a James Bond film.

    I don't agree, but I can see where you're coming from. There's an aesthetic which is lost after that (obviously the big link there is Ken Adam not doing any more after that which really does change them) but also Lewis Gilbert gives them an elegance and epic quality that Glen can't quite match.
    I like the feel of the 80s films, but I know what you mean about those 'old guard' Bond movies ending around that point, and the last one to have Bernard Lee, Ken Adam and Shirley Bassey is a bit of a minor end of an era.

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited August 2021 Posts: 5,979
    Revelator wrote: »
    I think the filmmakers felt they had to address the elephant in the room--someone else than Connery playing Bond. The two were inextricable in the mind of the public to a degree that is almost impossible to grasp for those of us who weren't around at the time.

    Ultimately the best way of addressing the elephant was to wink at it. And the best time to do so was after the pre-credits had ended, when all the preceding tension had been dispelled, and right before Binder's titles, which asserted the film's continuity with all the preceding Bond films, even if the actor was different. The filmmakers found the best place for this potentially throwaway line--the shock it causes is swiftly dispelled by the opening thunderclaps of Barry's theme music.

    The film openly acknowledges that this is Bond is a different fella than the one we've come to know and love, but asserts he's still appearing in a genuine Bond film.

    Exactly. It had to be done.

    It's easy to look back now and realize the role can always be recast. But in 1969 Eon must have been scared to death that the golden goose of Bond walked out the door with Connery.

    The moment also does work as a riff on Cinderella, as stated above. Fairy tales persist for a reason...and ironically the film ends up being the rare Bond without a fairy tale ending.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited August 2021 Posts: 1,690
    I think you’re being overly sensitive mtm. Like you said, it’s a silly conversation, let’s not perceive things as adversarial. We’re all just folks talking Bond in an online equivalent of a pub. Have a pint, or ice water. :)>-

    Indeed. When I said "if having sex with you and killing you are both going to happen, the order of events should be clear for a normal person", I was referring to the common opinion of normal people, including Bond. I wasn't commenting on whether or not @mtm was a normal person or trying to suggest anything at all about him. Basically, the sex is a given, and the killing would certainly not come before.

    While I suppose it's possible that the funny and clever Tom Mankiewicz intended a less funny/clever interpretation of his line, I find it more plausible that he is being interpreted as wrongly as I have been here! ;)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2021 Posts: 14,949
    I think you’re being overly sensitive mtm. Like you said, it’s a silly conversation, let’s not perceive things as adversarial. We’re all just folks talking Bond in an online equivalent of a pub. Have a pint, or ice water. :)>-

    Indeed. When I said "if having sex with you and killing you are both going to happen, the order of events should be clear for a normal person", I was referring to the common opinion of normal people, including Bond. I wasn't commenting on whether or not @mtm was a normal person or trying to suggest anything at all about him. Basically, the sex is a given, and the killing would certainly not come before.

    Okay thanks, sorry to misinterpret you.

    Bond is just saying "I would hardly kill you before I got the chance to shag you" which is a joke about his character. He's not saying that the sex would happen regardless (especially as the point of his comment is that he wouldn't). You are interpreting it wrongly, as you say.

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    mtm wrote: »
    I think you’re being overly sensitive mtm. Like you said, it’s a silly conversation, let’s not perceive things as adversarial. We’re all just folks talking Bond in an online equivalent of a pub. Have a pint, or ice water. :)>-

    Indeed. When I said "if having sex with you and killing you are both going to happen, the order of events should be clear for a normal person", I was referring to the common opinion of normal people, including Bond. I wasn't commenting on whether or not @mtm was a normal person or trying to suggest anything at all about him. Basically, the sex is a given, and the killing would certainly not come before.

    Okay thanks, sorry to misinterpret you.

    Bond is just saying "I would hardly kill you before I got the chance to shag you" which is a joke about his character. He's not saying that the sex would happen regardless.

    If it was Brosnan, it might be different.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,949
    mtm wrote: »
    I think you’re being overly sensitive mtm. Like you said, it’s a silly conversation, let’s not perceive things as adversarial. We’re all just folks talking Bond in an online equivalent of a pub. Have a pint, or ice water. :)>-

    Indeed. When I said "if having sex with you and killing you are both going to happen, the order of events should be clear for a normal person", I was referring to the common opinion of normal people, including Bond. I wasn't commenting on whether or not @mtm was a normal person or trying to suggest anything at all about him. Basically, the sex is a given, and the killing would certainly not come before.

    Okay thanks, sorry to misinterpret you.

    Bond is just saying "I would hardly kill you before I got the chance to shag you" which is a joke about his character. He's not saying that the sex would happen regardless.

    If it was Brosnan, it might be different.

    Yes he does have a bit of a habit of nuzzling pretty lady corpses! :D
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,025
    Whatever the case, I love how macabre Mankiewicz’s humor was, especially in DAF.


    *Kidd takes photos of Mrs Whistler’s corpse*
    Kidd: “Mrs. Whistler did wante photos of the canal for the children.”
    Wint: “How kind of you Mr. Kidd. The children will be so thrilled.”

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,979
    mtm wrote: »
    I think you’re being overly sensitive mtm. Like you said, it’s a silly conversation, let’s not perceive things as adversarial. We’re all just folks talking Bond in an online equivalent of a pub. Have a pint, or ice water. :)>-

    Indeed. When I said "if having sex with you and killing you are both going to happen, the order of events should be clear for a normal person", I was referring to the common opinion of normal people, including Bond. I wasn't commenting on whether or not @mtm was a normal person or trying to suggest anything at all about him. Basically, the sex is a given, and the killing would certainly not come before.

    Okay thanks, sorry to misinterpret you.

    Bond is just saying "I would hardly kill you before I got the chance to shag you" which is a joke about his character. He's not saying that the sex would happen regardless.

    If it was Brosnan, it might be different.

    Now, that was funny!
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,690
    mtm wrote: »
    I think you’re being overly sensitive mtm. Like you said, it’s a silly conversation, let’s not perceive things as adversarial. We’re all just folks talking Bond in an online equivalent of a pub. Have a pint, or ice water. :)>-

    Indeed. When I said "if having sex with you and killing you are both going to happen, the order of events should be clear for a normal person", I was referring to the common opinion of normal people, including Bond. I wasn't commenting on whether or not @mtm was a normal person or trying to suggest anything at all about him. Basically, the sex is a given, and the killing would certainly not come before.

    Okay thanks, sorry to misinterpret you.

    Bond is just saying "I would hardly kill you before I got the chance to shag you" which is a joke about his character. He's not saying that the sex would happen regardless.

    If it was Brosnan, it might be different.

    :)) I have no doubt Pierce would kill before or after.

    @mtm, if Bond had said what your paraphrase says, you'd be absolutely right. As is, he's saying what he's saying, and it's an actual joke. I'm not the only person to (correctly) interpret it this way, either!
  • Posts: 1,571
    @PrinceKamalKhan Thanks for the reminder ! Since Bond had her shoe in his hand, that's what I thought at the time, too. Couldn't recall that earlier -- 1969 was a while ago. And I also remember thinking that the Prince Charming joke -- if it served that way intentionally, too, though it seemed to me at the time the ONLY reference -- was awkward, at best. Sure. He met the lady and was impressed, he wound up with her shoe as she took off, but the line still felt stilted to me. To this day I also find the lighting just too dim...I suppose it was an early-in-the-film indicator that this film would be more realistic, but still dark...
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,690
    Since62 wrote: »
    @PrinceKamalKhan Thanks for the reminder ! Since Bond had her shoe in his hand, that's what I thought at the time, too. Couldn't recall that earlier -- 1969 was a while ago. And I also remember thinking that the Prince Charming joke -- if it served that way intentionally, too, though it seemed to me at the time the ONLY reference -- was awkward, at best. Sure. He met the lady and was impressed, he wound up with her shoe as she took off, but the line still felt stilted to me. To this day I also find the lighting just too dim...I suppose it was an early-in-the-film indicator that this film would be more realistic, but still dark...

    Isn't it shot as day-for-night or something? Or dawn? I think they're trying to make it look like a certain time of day, and that sort of thing didn't usually look quite right in that era.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2021 Posts: 14,949
    mtm wrote: »
    I think you’re being overly sensitive mtm. Like you said, it’s a silly conversation, let’s not perceive things as adversarial. We’re all just folks talking Bond in an online equivalent of a pub. Have a pint, or ice water. :)>-

    Indeed. When I said "if having sex with you and killing you are both going to happen, the order of events should be clear for a normal person", I was referring to the common opinion of normal people, including Bond. I wasn't commenting on whether or not @mtm was a normal person or trying to suggest anything at all about him. Basically, the sex is a given, and the killing would certainly not come before.

    Okay thanks, sorry to misinterpret you.

    Bond is just saying "I would hardly kill you before I got the chance to shag you" which is a joke about his character. He's not saying that the sex would happen regardless.

    If it was Brosnan, it might be different.

    :)) I have no doubt Pierce would kill before or after.

    @mtm, if Bond had said what your paraphrase says, you'd be absolutely right. As is, he's saying what he's saying, and it's an actual joke. I'm not the only person to (correctly) interpret it this way, either!

    If it works for you to think it works that way then fine, please stop being so antagonistic about it. Everyone else finds it funny the way it actually is in the film (because it certainly is a joke that Bond says he would never kill someone if there was a chance of getting his leg over first, because that's what he's like), we're all happy.
  • Posts: 14,824
    Thrasos wrote: »
    Oh, it's real all right. :)

    YhIj4Uq.jpg

    Well I look at that passport and it kind of makes sense.
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    It sounds more like a name from a 1960s spy craze spoof film taking off Bond than a name that should be in a modern Bond film. See, for example, Miss Goodthighs in the spoof version of Casino Royale (1967). I know it's only meant as a joke, but still. It doesn't really fit well with the tone of the surrounding story and film which is very dark and serious.

    I think it works because 1)it's acknowledged as an awful name in universe and 2)as awful as it is... it's still a plausible enough surname. In my life I've known a Miss Crook, a Mr Pink and a few Guays (pronounced gay).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2021 Posts: 14,949
    Since62 wrote: »
    @PrinceKamalKhan Thanks for the reminder ! Since Bond had her shoe in his hand, that's what I thought at the time, too. Couldn't recall that earlier -- 1969 was a while ago. And I also remember thinking that the Prince Charming joke -- if it served that way intentionally, too, though it seemed to me at the time the ONLY reference -- was awkward, at best. Sure. He met the lady and was impressed, he wound up with her shoe as she took off, but the line still felt stilted to me. To this day I also find the lighting just too dim...I suppose it was an early-in-the-film indicator that this film would be more realistic, but still dark...

    I think the idea is it's very early morning: Bond is in a dinner suit driving back to his hotel so he's presumably been up all night at some casino or other. OHMSS is good but it is a bit ragged in some of these aspects, like the tyres screeching on the sand, Bond and his assailant suddenly being up the waist in the water etc.
  • Posts: 1,571
    Yes, certainly it is supposed to occur at dawn or dusk. However -- realism shmealism ! It's difficult to SEE
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,690
    Well, moving on from attempting to explain Tom Mankiewicz's jokes, I have a dumb pet peeve that may qualify as an unpopular opinion: While Daniel Craig is a tremendous actor and an excellent James Bond, his labored and flamboyant way of tossing things aside always irritates me.

    And he does it a lot. Car keys in CR, wallet contents in QOS, and in SP, more wallet contents as well as his Walther. They seem to like having Craig fling his wrists around.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited August 2021 Posts: 8,025
    He even does it in Star Wars, tossing aside the blaster!
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,690
    He even does it in Star Wars, tossing aside the blaster!

    Holy crap, you're right! What's his deal?!
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