Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,689
    It's bewildering to imagine that at some point a guy looked at this poster next to the ones they went with and made the choice he did.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,028
    It's bewildering to imagine that at some point a guy looked at this poster next to the ones they went with and made the choice he did.

    Some of the decisions made in this respect never cease to amaze me.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,778
    Perfectly usable too, just replace "Revoked" with "to Kill". Or am I missing something here?
  • edited February 2021 Posts: 17,272
    I imagine they decided that they wanted the teaser poster to actually show a photo of Dalton rather than an illustration of him, since that Bob Peak's illustration of Dalton is a bit stylised and very "Bob Peak". That photo of Dalton used in the teaser poster is more immediately recognisable.

    The Bob Peak poster is way cooler of course, but the teaser poster isn't that bad really.
  • Posts: 14,816
    Here's one controversial opinion: I find Bond film ranking from best to worst pretty pointless.
  • Posts: 6,803
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Perfectly usable too, just replace "Revoked" with "to Kill". Or am I missing something here?

    There was a story at the time that they were actually trying to hide the fact that this was a James Bond movie, hence the reason why in the posters used, Bond is either not wearing a tie or not wearing a tux at all!
    Cant think of any other reason, though in late 80's and 90's there was a move away from classy illustrated movie posters to awful close up photos of the main actors!
  • Posts: 1,882
    I know it's been discussed on these boards before, but there's a whole range of rejected LTK posters, most of which are much better than what we got. The former U.S. film magazine Premiere did a feature on them back when LTK came out in the summer of '89. They even included the comments by MGM/UA or Eon or some entity as to why they didn't work. I think the Bob Peak one in this thread was said to be too close to Dirty Harry. I know, ridiculous.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Here's one controversial opinion: I find Bond film ranking from best to worst pretty pointless.

    I don't have a formal ranking. I guess we all do to a degree but it's always going to vary. Recently, there was the fan poll that ranked GE as the best of the series, which I couldn't believe. Then there are others who think it is, so...
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,028
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Here's one controversial opinion: I find Bond film ranking from best to worst pretty pointless.

    I don't have a formal ranking. I guess we all do to a degree but it's always going to vary. Recently, there was the fan poll that ranked GE as the best of the series, which I couldn't believe. Then there are others who think it is, so...

    Recently, I've stopped trying to do rankings in a particular "one followed by the other" order. My Bond is broken up into three segments: the top tier (of what I would consider essential Bond), the middle tier (of the ones that I find entertaining but not classic), and then the bottom tier (whatever is left over). It keeps things simple for me rather than moving films up and down over another particular film again, which can suck the fun out of it a bit sometimes.

    I know there's loads of people out there who love doing rankings, though. Not knocking them in the slightest.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,935
    It’s a damn shame they had this amazing art by Bob Peak (who also did The Spy Who Loved Me’s fantastic poster) ready to go and didn’t use it.
    2lxi4bjhhsd41.jpg

    I don't want to spam every thread with it as I've already posted it in two(!) but a couple of weeks ago I did work up a version of a poster which the great poster artist Steven Chorney did a B/W comp of (I'm unsure whether it dates from the release of the film or not) and which I always rather liked; I think it came out quite well and it does seem relevant! :)

    EuBULM7WgAIsp51?format=jpg&name=medium
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,935
    BT3366 wrote: »
    I know it's been discussed on these boards before, but there's a whole range of rejected LTK posters, most of which are much better than what we got. The former U.S. film magazine Premiere did a feature on them back when LTK came out in the summer of '89. They even included the comments by MGM/UA or Eon or some entity as to why they didn't work. I think the Bob Peak one in this thread was said to be too close to Dirty Harry. I know, ridiculous.

    There are many out there (a couple in the style of the TLD lady's legs in the foreground poster, one with Tim having a fight on a speedboat etc.) but there were a few in an MI6 magazine which I've seen thumbnail spreads of but I've never seen anywhere else- I'd love to see bigger ones of those if anyone has them..?
    I think there must have been quite a few.
  • mtm wrote: »
    It’s a damn shame they had this amazing art by Bob Peak (who also did The Spy Who Loved Me’s fantastic poster) ready to go and didn’t use it.
    2lxi4bjhhsd41.jpg

    I don't want to spam every thread with it as I've already posted it in two(!) but a couple of weeks ago I did work up a version of a poster which the great poster artist Steven Chorney did a B/W comp of (I'm unsure whether it dates from the release of the film or not) and which I always rather liked; I think it came out quite well and it does seem relevant! :)

    EuBULM7WgAIsp51?format=jpg&name=medium

    I saw you posted it in the fan poster thread, it looks great. It’s very Struzan-esque and had it been used as the theatrical poster it might have helped syphon off some of the Last Crusade crowd.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 13,900
    I like the LTK ones of Dalton posing or running atop his 'revoked' licence, which is actually his visitor's passport.
  • Looks like Peak had a whole array of unused concept posters for the movie:
    b51df8e78f0ca6f36b146e1b7c50f904.jpg

    The red and black one is easily my favorite, but the others are very cool as well and could have been fitting with maybe a bit more polish.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,104
    Looks like Peak had a whole array of unused concept posters for the movie:
    b51df8e78f0ca6f36b146e1b7c50f904.jpg

    The red and black one is easily my favorite, but the others are very cool as well and could have been fitting with maybe a bit more polish.

    I like the one with the two women by his shoulders. Too many posters recently are just of Bond himself and the Main Woman. Hopefully, they’ll expand their characters on the posters soon!
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 12,996
    I'm familiar with these.

    Looked at quickly, the upper right looks like it's anticipating Goldeneye.

    Lower left, Bond appears to be holding a sign and going on strike.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I'm familiar with these.

    Looked at quickly, the upper right looks like it's anticipating Goldeneye.

    Lower left, Bond appears to be holding a sign and going on strike.

    Ha, pretty good observations.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,935
    Here's that MI6 Confidential magazine with glimpses at other designs I've never seen anywhere else. Does anyone have this mag or the poster concepts?

    layout_06.jpg
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 7,965
    Personally I think LTK is too much hit-and-miss film. I don't like Carey Lowell as Pam. I think thry could've done without that character, or find someone who not only has the looks but the acting qualities as well. I find Talisa Soto far more appealing and convincing as golddigger than Lowell as CIA agent. On the other hand, the way Bond uses sanches' principles against him is very cool and as Bondian as it gets. There Timothy really gets into his own 'Bond'. His dark and brooding working wonders.

  • Posts: 1,882
    Personally I think LTK is too much hit-and-miss film. I don't like Carey Lowell as Pam. I think thry could've done without that character, or find someone who not only has the looks but the acting qualities as well. I find Talisa Soto far more appealing and convincing as golddigger than Lowell as CIA agent. On the other hand, the way Bond uses sanches' principles against him is very cool and as Bondian as it gets. There Timothy really gets into his own 'Bond'. His dark and brooding working wonders.

    I think both actresses are perfect examples of Eon's casting policies and choices of the time. While we don't need the Oscar/award-winning caliber performers all the time, these two go the opposite direction of the little-knowns getting the big shot and not making an impression.

    For me, Soto simply gives the all-time worst performance of a main Bond woman, just expressionless and bland line readings. Particularly, "I love James so much." Hard to take her serious as the woman who ultimately led to Sanchez's destruction.

    Lowell isn't good, but a lot that is the script that letting her character down, especially the jealousy bit. At least though she's not burdened with the female Bond agent role. She's tough and independent without that. But ultimately forgettable among the best Bond women.

    I agree that the film could've done without her character, not unlike how SF worked just fine without a standard love interest/sidekick character for Bond.
  • edited March 2021 Posts: 2,895
    I might be in the minority, but I've always liked Lowell's Pam and consider her one of the best Bond girls of the 80s. I also like her jealousy toward Lupe--Pam is too proud a professional to tell Bond how she feels about him, or to share him with another woman, so her jealousy toward Lupe shows us the real depth of her feelings. It humanizes an otherwise tough and self-contained character by showing even she has her amusing emotional weaknesses. A nice change from the now-stereotypical "strong female character" that's as boring as all other paragons. Pam and Lupe seem exactly like the sort of characters who would never get along: self-sufficient tomboy versus privileged princess. Pam's snort of "Bull****!" is exactly how I'd imagine her reacting toward another woman encroaching on her territory.

    Lupe is an intentionally shallow and lightweight character--the film even has Pam mock her delivery of "I love James so much." Of course Lupe doesn't. That said, she's not a bimbo; she's a sympathetic character because of what she suffers under Sanchez, but the film doesn't pretend she's a tragic or deep character either--she's more than happy to hook up with the President at the end. Ultimately she's there for Bond to use, but not abuse.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,028
    Lowell's great. One of the best Bond girls for me.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,778
    Count me in as a fan of Pam. One of the very best in my opinion.
  • edited March 2021 Posts: 7,500
    Revelator wrote: »
    I might be in the minority, but I've always liked Lowell's Pam and consider her one of the best Bond girls of the 80s. I also like her jealousy toward Lupe--Pam is too proud a professional to tell Bond how she feels about him, or to share him with another woman, so her jealousy toward Lupe shows us the real depth of her feelings. It humanizes an otherwise tough and self-contained character by showing even she has her amusing emotional weaknesses. A nice change from the now-stereotypical "strong female character" that's as boring as all other paragons. Pam and Lupe seem exactly like the sort of characters who would never get along: self-sufficient tomboy versus privileged princess. Pam's snort of "Bull****!" is exactly how I'd imagine her reacting toward another woman encroaching on her territory.

    Lupe is an intentionally shallow and lightweight character--the film even has Pam mock her delivery of "I love James so much." Of course Lupe doesn't. That said, she's not a bimbo; she's a sympathetic character because of what she suffers under Sanchez, but the film doesn't pretend she's a tragic or deep character either--she's more than happy to hook up with the President at the end. Ultimately she's there for Bond to use, but not abuse.

    Well put 👍

    I am also in the Pam fan fam ;)
  • The same for me. Even if I find the character a bit weak after Kara from the previous film, who, in my opinion, has the strongest and believable relationship with Bond since Tracy, Pam manages to renew the fellow agent pattern. I guess a lot more could have been done with her considering her status of Bond's only ally, nevertheless she's far from being forgettable.
  • goldenswissroyalegoldenswissroyale Switzerland
    Posts: 4,389
    Very good comment @Revelator. I'm also part of the Pam fanbase. Lupe's “I love James so much“ is probably a bit too much but so funny in combination with Q and Pam that I'm always looking forward to it. The acting of both women is good or at least solid (imo) and both look very attractive to me. There aren't many Bond films where I'm more attracted by the Bond girls. Of course, there is much more stunning stuff in this strong revenge movie.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    Very good comment @Revelator. I'm also part of the Pam fanbase. Lupe's “I love James so much“ is probably a bit too much but so funny in combination with Q and Pam that I'm always looking forward to it. The acting of both women is good or at least solid (imo) and both look very attractive to me. There aren't many Bond films where I'm more attracted by the Bond girls. Of course, there is much more stunning stuff in this strong revenge movie.

    Agreed, @Revelator makes good comments here. Isn't Lupe's "I love James...' comment supposed to be nonsense? That's the kind of manipulation she uses around men (it has helped her survive), and Pam can see through it all.

    I think both of them are excellent characters and performances. But each to their own.
  • Posts: 14,816
    Personally I think LTK is too much hit-and-miss film. I don't like Carey Lowell as Pam. I think thry could've done without that character, or find someone who not only has the looks but the acting qualities as well. I find Talisa Soto far more appealing and convincing as golddigger than Lowell as CIA agent. On the other hand, the way Bond uses sanches' principles against him is very cool and as Bondian as it gets. There Timothy really gets into his own 'Bond'. His dark and brooding working wonders.

    That's pretty much how I feel about LTK (and about Pam and Lupe).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 2021 Posts: 14,935
    Pam isn't a CIA agent to be fair, she's just an informant. Well, I guess she is an 'agent' in the actual real world definition, where an employee of SIS like Bond is an 'officer' and a person who has been turned to carry out actions for the officer is an 'agent' (I think that's right anyway- I can't claim to be an expert! :) ).

    I think she's excellent anyway; strong without being irritating like Jinx, and Lowell plays her really well. I prefer her to Kara as she's more of an interesting character. She's perhaps actually a bit too strong for Dalton's relatively meek portrayal of Bond, who shrinks away a bit in contrast to her. Kara works well for him because she's so weak she makes him look more masculine.
    An odd thought: Lazenby's more swaggery and brash Bond would probably suit being partnered with Pam better.

  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,689
    Count me in the Pam and Lupe fan club as well. They're both above average at least, and they have a bit more actual acting to do than the average pre-Craig Bond girl. Pam's meeting with Dario, Bond confronting her over Heller, or Lupe in the PTS or being threatened by Bond on the Wavekrest: these are all well done scenes that are somewhat more demanding than the usual part.

    I have to think people are conflating the performances with unloved aspects of the characters as written. An actual bad performance would involve unnatural, overwooden line readings or inappropriate or overdone facial expressions. Barbara Bach, who sounds like she's from the moon in most of her scenes, is an easy example. Or Maryam D'Abo (who I like) sometimes overplayed Kara's naivety and came off sounding slightly stupid at times. I really can't think of any scenes that Carey or Talisa screwed up....
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited March 2021 Posts: 8,028
    With that in mind - I suppose this one might be controversial enough, but I'm not sure:

    Kara is one of the very best Bond girls on paper, but D'Abo is pretty awful and her performance doesn't bring out any of her potentially interesting qualities beyond her naivety and turns one of the better characters into one of the worst.

    Lowell leaves her for dust, both as a character and in terms of chemistry with Dalton.
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