Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

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Comments

  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,254
    I know what you're talking about Peter; I just think the rhetoric you're using to make your point is very flawed and has as much to do with your dislike of Brosnan as anything else.

    What makes him terrible in the GE fight? Granted, I've been very vocal about how awful the fight during the TWINE climax is, so I'm really quite interested in hearing why the GE fight is also bad; I don't think it's really that difficult to throw a punch and I think he does it quite well there. I don't buy the notion that Bean carries the sequence. If Brosnan was truly as bad as you say, and if Bean was that much better than him, people wouldn't hold the fight up as an example. The opposite would likely be true, in fact.
    peter wrote: »
    And @CraigMooreOHMSS ... Compare that stylized punch that Brozz did in your cliip to the crackling punches in CR (any fight), QoS (any fight).... Shall I continue?

    As noted above, happy to concede CR. Wonderfully raw and brutal style on display throughout the film. But I don't think the fights in QoS are sold well because they're choreographed to within an inch of their life - you can almost see the performers trying to remember the moves before they're supposed to make them. Conversely, that is not realistic to me.

    Anyone who knows combat fighting will cite Craig as the more proficient and realistic fighter vs Brozz …

    …. And audiences who don’t know any better will go for raw realistic tension than whatever the Brozz offered.

    Dalton was as good as a fighter as Brozz, but better coz he sold it (minus the bar fight in LTK);
  • Posts: 15,785
    I liked Brosnan's fight sequences. In fact I really liked the fights at the press printing factory and the sound booth in TND.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,254
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I liked Brosnan's fight sequences. In fact I really liked the fights at the press printing factory and the sound booth in TND.

    That wasn’t fighting— that was pantomime
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 2,010
    peter wrote: »
    I know what you're talking about Peter; I just think the rhetoric you're using to make your point is very flawed and has as much to do with your dislike of Brosnan as anything else.

    What makes him terrible in the GE fight? Granted, I've been very vocal about how awful the fight during the TWINE climax is, so I'm really quite interested in hearing why the GE fight is also bad; I don't think it's really that difficult to throw a punch and I think he does it quite well there. I don't buy the notion that Bean carries the sequence. If Brosnan was truly as bad as you say, and if Bean was that much better than him, people wouldn't hold the fight up as an example. The opposite would likely be true, in fact.
    peter wrote: »
    And @CraigMooreOHMSS ... Compare that stylized punch that Brozz did in your cliip to the crackling punches in CR (any fight), QoS (any fight).... Shall I continue?

    As noted above, happy to concede CR. Wonderfully raw and brutal style on display throughout the film. But I don't think the fights in QoS are sold well because they're choreographed to within an inch of their life - you can almost see the performers trying to remember the moves before they're supposed to make them. Conversely, that is not realistic to me.

    Anyone who knows combat fighting will cite Craig as the more proficient and realistic fighter vs Brozz …

    …. And audiences who don’t know any better will go for raw realistic tension than whatever the Brozz offered.

    Dalton was as good as a fighter as Brozz, but better coz he sold it (minus the bar fight in LTK);

    Interesting I never thought of Combat Fighting as what people always looked for in Bond films...No one here has ever doubted Craig’s abilities during the fight scenes, they just merely pointed out how choreographed some of those fights look, which I can’t say I disagree with, Casino Royale had the best fights of the entire Craig era, they don’t feel as hard hitting after that. What I don’t understand is the point your trying to make by dismissing Brosnan because of his supposed “inability” to make fight scenes look realistic, that just comes across as being biased towards the man. As mentioned earlier, actors are not fighters. I’m sure Daniel Craig isn’t the worlds greatest fighter either.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited November 2021 Posts: 8,009
    peter wrote: »
    I know what you're talking about Peter; I just think the rhetoric you're using to make your point is very flawed and has as much to do with your dislike of Brosnan as anything else.

    What makes him terrible in the GE fight? Granted, I've been very vocal about how awful the fight during the TWINE climax is, so I'm really quite interested in hearing why the GE fight is also bad; I don't think it's really that difficult to throw a punch and I think he does it quite well there. I don't buy the notion that Bean carries the sequence. If Brosnan was truly as bad as you say, and if Bean was that much better than him, people wouldn't hold the fight up as an example. The opposite would likely be true, in fact.
    peter wrote: »
    And @CraigMooreOHMSS ... Compare that stylized punch that Brozz did in your cliip to the crackling punches in CR (any fight), QoS (any fight).... Shall I continue?

    As noted above, happy to concede CR. Wonderfully raw and brutal style on display throughout the film. But I don't think the fights in QoS are sold well because they're choreographed to within an inch of their life - you can almost see the performers trying to remember the moves before they're supposed to make them. Conversely, that is not realistic to me.

    Anyone who knows combat fighting will cite Craig as the more proficient and realistic fighter vs Brozz …

    …. And audiences who don’t know any better will go for raw realistic tension than whatever the Brozz offered.

    Dalton was as good as a fighter as Brozz, but better coz he sold it (minus the bar fight in LTK);

    This is all well and good but it's not actually an answer to the question I asked. Someone "selling it" is a matter of intepretation, not fact. Not all combat fighting is the same. It wouldn't be much use to any combatants if it were.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    Brosnan defenders unite!

    :P ;)
  • Posts: 6,682
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I liked Brosnan's fight sequences. In fact I really liked the fights at the press printing factory and the sound booth in TND.

    I love how he punches that one guy at the factory over and over again and nothing happens.

    And how, in the sound booth fight, you can see Bond in the background grabbing a cello to hit the guy with. The music enhances the comedic feel of the scene.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,009
    Brosnan defenders unite!

    :P ;)

    It's actually more of just expecting a decent answer to a straightforward question instead of the usual "he wasn't any good at this", really.

    :P ;)
  • Posts: 15,785
    mattjoes wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I liked Brosnan's fight sequences. In fact I really liked the fights at the press printing factory and the sound booth in TND.

    I love how he punches that one guy at the factory over and over again and nothing happens.

    And how, in the sound booth fight, you can see Bond in the background grabbing a cello to hit the guy with. The music enhances the comedic feel of the scene.

    There's some great shots during those fights. Very classic old school Bond. Love it!
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 2,010
    mattjoes wrote: »
    And how, in the sound booth fight, you can see Bond in the background grabbing a cello to hit the guy with. The music enhances the comedic feel of the scene.

    I love that scene too! Then he smashes the guard calling for Stamper with some ice blocks before shutting down the party. That was the icing on the cake.
    Brosnan defenders unite!

    :P ;)

    To be fair, this is a Brosnan related thread. I’m sure the same reactions would be coming out of the woodworks if someone criticized Dalton or Craig on a thread dedicated to them
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,254
    peter wrote: »
    I know what you're talking about Peter; I just think the rhetoric you're using to make your point is very flawed and has as much to do with your dislike of Brosnan as anything else.

    What makes him terrible in the GE fight? Granted, I've been very vocal about how awful the fight during the TWINE climax is, so I'm really quite interested in hearing why the GE fight is also bad; I don't think it's really that difficult to throw a punch and I think he does it quite well there. I don't buy the notion that Bean carries the sequence. If Brosnan was truly as bad as you say, and if Bean was that much better than him, people wouldn't hold the fight up as an example. The opposite would likely be true, in fact.
    peter wrote: »
    And @CraigMooreOHMSS ... Compare that stylized punch that Brozz did in your cliip to the crackling punches in CR (any fight), QoS (any fight).... Shall I continue?

    As noted above, happy to concede CR. Wonderfully raw and brutal style on display throughout the film. But I don't think the fights in QoS are sold well because they're choreographed to within an inch of their life - you can almost see the performers trying to remember the moves before they're supposed to make them. Conversely, that is not realistic to me.

    Anyone who knows combat fighting will cite Craig as the more proficient and realistic fighter vs Brozz …

    …. And audiences who don’t know any better will go for raw realistic tension than whatever the Brozz offered.

    Dalton was as good as a fighter as Brozz, but better coz he sold it (minus the bar fight in LTK);

    This is all well and good but it's not actually an answer to the question I asked. Someone "selling it" is a matter of intepretation, not fact. Not all combat fighting is the same. It wouldn't be much use to any combatants if it were.

    I can’t even… I love you @CraigMooreOHMSS… but… I’m just not understanding your perspective..
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited November 2021 Posts: 8,009
    peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    I know what you're talking about Peter; I just think the rhetoric you're using to make your point is very flawed and has as much to do with your dislike of Brosnan as anything else.

    What makes him terrible in the GE fight? Granted, I've been very vocal about how awful the fight during the TWINE climax is, so I'm really quite interested in hearing why the GE fight is also bad; I don't think it's really that difficult to throw a punch and I think he does it quite well there. I don't buy the notion that Bean carries the sequence. If Brosnan was truly as bad as you say, and if Bean was that much better than him, people wouldn't hold the fight up as an example. The opposite would likely be true, in fact.
    peter wrote: »
    And @CraigMooreOHMSS ... Compare that stylized punch that Brozz did in your cliip to the crackling punches in CR (any fight), QoS (any fight).... Shall I continue?

    As noted above, happy to concede CR. Wonderfully raw and brutal style on display throughout the film. But I don't think the fights in QoS are sold well because they're choreographed to within an inch of their life - you can almost see the performers trying to remember the moves before they're supposed to make them. Conversely, that is not realistic to me.

    Anyone who knows combat fighting will cite Craig as the more proficient and realistic fighter vs Brozz …

    …. And audiences who don’t know any better will go for raw realistic tension than whatever the Brozz offered.

    Dalton was as good as a fighter as Brozz, but better coz he sold it (minus the bar fight in LTK);

    This is all well and good but it's not actually an answer to the question I asked. Someone "selling it" is a matter of intepretation, not fact. Not all combat fighting is the same. It wouldn't be much use to any combatants if it were.

    I can’t even… I love you @CraigMooreOHMSS… but… I’m just not understanding your perspective..

    Likewise, @peter. Nothing but respect, always.

    I'll rephrase the earlier question for clarity: what makes Brosnan objectively bad at the physical side of things? What makes all the people versed in combat worldwide so confident that he is awful at it? What is he doing wrong in the GE fight that makes it unworthy of its acclaim?

    They're all very big statements. My regular collaborator on sets in terms of fight choreography, Jay (admittedly he's more of a swords and sandals type, working on Vikings and its spin-off currently - but he knows how to fight), was pretty complimentary of the GE fight and Brosnan's performance in it during a conversation we had once upon a time. Likewise, Craig's fights in CR and QoS.
  • Posts: 15,785
    Brosnan defenders unite!

    :P ;)

    Count me in as a Brosnan defender! He's my hero.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited November 2021 Posts: 7,518
    Broz is great, my first Bond and the one true Bond. ;) When I'm watching his films, the accuracy and realism of his physical fighting is certainly not what I'm focusing on.
  • peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    I know what you're talking about Peter; I just think the rhetoric you're using to make your point is very flawed and has as much to do with your dislike of Brosnan as anything else.

    What makes him terrible in the GE fight? Granted, I've been very vocal about how awful the fight during the TWINE climax is, so I'm really quite interested in hearing why the GE fight is also bad; I don't think it's really that difficult to throw a punch and I think he does it quite well there. I don't buy the notion that Bean carries the sequence. If Brosnan was truly as bad as you say, and if Bean was that much better than him, people wouldn't hold the fight up as an example. The opposite would likely be true, in fact.
    peter wrote: »
    And @CraigMooreOHMSS ... Compare that stylized punch that Brozz did in your cliip to the crackling punches in CR (any fight), QoS (any fight).... Shall I continue?

    As noted above, happy to concede CR. Wonderfully raw and brutal style on display throughout the film. But I don't think the fights in QoS are sold well because they're choreographed to within an inch of their life - you can almost see the performers trying to remember the moves before they're supposed to make them. Conversely, that is not realistic to me.

    Anyone who knows combat fighting will cite Craig as the more proficient and realistic fighter vs Brozz …

    …. And audiences who don’t know any better will go for raw realistic tension than whatever the Brozz offered.

    Dalton was as good as a fighter as Brozz, but better coz he sold it (minus the bar fight in LTK);

    This is all well and good but it's not actually an answer to the question I asked. Someone "selling it" is a matter of intepretation, not fact. Not all combat fighting is the same. It wouldn't be much use to any combatants if it were.

    I can’t even… I love you @CraigMooreOHMSS… but… I’m just not understanding your perspective..

    Likewise, @peter. Nothing but respect, always.

    I'll rephrase the earlier question for clarity: what makes Brosnan objectively bad at the physical side of things? What makes all the people versed in combat worldwide so confident that he is awful at it? What is he doing wrong in the GE fight that makes it unworthy of its acclaim?

    They're all very big statements. My regular collaborator on sets in terms of fight choreography, Jay (admittedly he's more of a swords and sandals type, working on Vikings and its spin-off currently - but he knows how to fight), was pretty complimentary of the GE fight and Brosnan's performance in it during a conversation we had once upon a time. Likewise, Craig's fights in CR and QoS.

    You work as a fight choreographer?!?! Now I’m interested in hearing your take on the FRWL train fight, because that’s my absolute favorite action scene of the entire series
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,254
    peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    I know what you're talking about Peter; I just think the rhetoric you're using to make your point is very flawed and has as much to do with your dislike of Brosnan as anything else.

    What makes him terrible in the GE fight? Granted, I've been very vocal about how awful the fight during the TWINE climax is, so I'm really quite interested in hearing why the GE fight is also bad; I don't think it's really that difficult to throw a punch and I think he does it quite well there. I don't buy the notion that Bean carries the sequence. If Brosnan was truly as bad as you say, and if Bean was that much better than him, people wouldn't hold the fight up as an example. The opposite would likely be true, in fact.
    peter wrote: »
    And @CraigMooreOHMSS ... Compare that stylized punch that Brozz did in your cliip to the crackling punches in CR (any fight), QoS (any fight).... Shall I continue?

    As noted above, happy to concede CR. Wonderfully raw and brutal style on display throughout the film. But I don't think the fights in QoS are sold well because they're choreographed to within an inch of their life - you can almost see the performers trying to remember the moves before they're supposed to make them. Conversely, that is not realistic to me.

    Anyone who knows combat fighting will cite Craig as the more proficient and realistic fighter vs Brozz …

    …. And audiences who don’t know any better will go for raw realistic tension than whatever the Brozz offered.

    Dalton was as good as a fighter as Brozz, but better coz he sold it (minus the bar fight in LTK);

    This is all well and good but it's not actually an answer to the question I asked. Someone "selling it" is a matter of intepretation, not fact. Not all combat fighting is the same. It wouldn't be much use to any combatants if it were.

    I can’t even… I love you @CraigMooreOHMSS… but… I’m just not understanding your perspective..

    Likewise, @peter. Nothing but respect, always.

    I'll rephrase the earlier question for clarity: what makes Brosnan objectively bad at the physical side of things? What makes all the people versed in combat worldwide so confident that he is awful at it? What is he doing wrong in the GE fight that makes it unworthy of its acclaim?

    The acclaim of the fight choreography in GE is never in doubt @CraigMooreOHMSS … nor is the believability of Bean… who sold this final fight scene from GE.

    Brosnan was always a “performer “, with “pain face”… Bean fires punches. Brosnan acts “punching” (as in one looks real, one doesn’t)

    After the Bean fight, Brosnan was never believable in unarmed combat again— he was never believable to do so…

    🤷‍♂️
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited November 2021 Posts: 8,009
    peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    I know what you're talking about Peter; I just think the rhetoric you're using to make your point is very flawed and has as much to do with your dislike of Brosnan as anything else.

    What makes him terrible in the GE fight? Granted, I've been very vocal about how awful the fight during the TWINE climax is, so I'm really quite interested in hearing why the GE fight is also bad; I don't think it's really that difficult to throw a punch and I think he does it quite well there. I don't buy the notion that Bean carries the sequence. If Brosnan was truly as bad as you say, and if Bean was that much better than him, people wouldn't hold the fight up as an example. The opposite would likely be true, in fact.
    peter wrote: »
    And @CraigMooreOHMSS ... Compare that stylized punch that Brozz did in your cliip to the crackling punches in CR (any fight), QoS (any fight).... Shall I continue?

    As noted above, happy to concede CR. Wonderfully raw and brutal style on display throughout the film. But I don't think the fights in QoS are sold well because they're choreographed to within an inch of their life - you can almost see the performers trying to remember the moves before they're supposed to make them. Conversely, that is not realistic to me.

    Anyone who knows combat fighting will cite Craig as the more proficient and realistic fighter vs Brozz …

    …. And audiences who don’t know any better will go for raw realistic tension than whatever the Brozz offered.

    Dalton was as good as a fighter as Brozz, but better coz he sold it (minus the bar fight in LTK);

    This is all well and good but it's not actually an answer to the question I asked. Someone "selling it" is a matter of intepretation, not fact. Not all combat fighting is the same. It wouldn't be much use to any combatants if it were.

    I can’t even… I love you @CraigMooreOHMSS… but… I’m just not understanding your perspective..

    Likewise, @peter. Nothing but respect, always.

    I'll rephrase the earlier question for clarity: what makes Brosnan objectively bad at the physical side of things? What makes all the people versed in combat worldwide so confident that he is awful at it? What is he doing wrong in the GE fight that makes it unworthy of its acclaim?

    They're all very big statements. My regular collaborator on sets in terms of fight choreography, Jay (admittedly he's more of a swords and sandals type, working on Vikings and its spin-off currently - but he knows how to fight), was pretty complimentary of the GE fight and Brosnan's performance in it during a conversation we had once upon a time. Likewise, Craig's fights in CR and QoS.

    You work as a fight choreographer?!?! Now I’m interested in hearing your take on the FRWL train fight, because that’s my absolute favorite action scene of the entire series

    Not myself, no @007ClassicBondFan. I write and direct, mainly indie shorts thus far. I'm a nobody really. But a lot of my circle have worked on bigger budget stuff. Jay Cosgrave would be the guy I'd collaborate with. He was also a stunt performer on The Rhythm Section for EON. He choreographed a scene for me a couple of years back featuring a brawl in an underpass between a drug dealer and a guy whose brother overdosed on the dealer's product. It's exhaustive work putting those scenes together, but they're always good fun.

    FEr0acaX0AEBGgC?format=jpg&name=large
    c63901e5-b56b-441e-b512-9b2a98fc5d75.gif?ClientID=vimeo-core-prod&Date=1637627500&Signature=a32ef4bc2c4879ad2ccbffed27e3f4a60e1fe100

    That being said, the FRWL train fight is excellent. ;)
  • peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    I know what you're talking about Peter; I just think the rhetoric you're using to make your point is very flawed and has as much to do with your dislike of Brosnan as anything else.

    What makes him terrible in the GE fight? Granted, I've been very vocal about how awful the fight during the TWINE climax is, so I'm really quite interested in hearing why the GE fight is also bad; I don't think it's really that difficult to throw a punch and I think he does it quite well there. I don't buy the notion that Bean carries the sequence. If Brosnan was truly as bad as you say, and if Bean was that much better than him, people wouldn't hold the fight up as an example. The opposite would likely be true, in fact.
    peter wrote: »
    And @CraigMooreOHMSS ... Compare that stylized punch that Brozz did in your cliip to the crackling punches in CR (any fight), QoS (any fight).... Shall I continue?

    As noted above, happy to concede CR. Wonderfully raw and brutal style on display throughout the film. But I don't think the fights in QoS are sold well because they're choreographed to within an inch of their life - you can almost see the performers trying to remember the moves before they're supposed to make them. Conversely, that is not realistic to me.

    Anyone who knows combat fighting will cite Craig as the more proficient and realistic fighter vs Brozz …

    …. And audiences who don’t know any better will go for raw realistic tension than whatever the Brozz offered.

    Dalton was as good as a fighter as Brozz, but better coz he sold it (minus the bar fight in LTK);

    This is all well and good but it's not actually an answer to the question I asked. Someone "selling it" is a matter of intepretation, not fact. Not all combat fighting is the same. It wouldn't be much use to any combatants if it were.

    I can’t even… I love you @CraigMooreOHMSS… but… I’m just not understanding your perspective..

    Likewise, @peter. Nothing but respect, always.

    I'll rephrase the earlier question for clarity: what makes Brosnan objectively bad at the physical side of things? What makes all the people versed in combat worldwide so confident that he is awful at it? What is he doing wrong in the GE fight that makes it unworthy of its acclaim?

    They're all very big statements. My regular collaborator on sets in terms of fight choreography, Jay (admittedly he's more of a swords and sandals type, working on Vikings and its spin-off currently - but he knows how to fight), was pretty complimentary of the GE fight and Brosnan's performance in it during a conversation we had once upon a time. Likewise, Craig's fights in CR and QoS.

    You work as a fight choreographer?!?! Now I’m interested in hearing your take on the FRWL train fight, because that’s my absolute favorite action scene of the entire series

    Not myself, no @007ClassicBondFan. I write and direct, mainly indie shorts thus far. I'm a nobody really. But a lot of my circle have worked on bigger budget stuff. Jay Cosgrave would be the guy I'd collaborate with. He was also a stunt performer on The Rhythm Section for EON. He choreographed a scene for me a couple of years back featuring a brawl in an underpass between a drug dealer and a guy whose brother overdosed on the dealer's product. It's exhaustive work putting those scenes together, but they're always good fun.

    FEr0acaX0AEBGgC?format=jpg&name=large

    That being said, the FRWL train fight is excellent. ;)

    Writing and Directing Indie films makes you much more than a nobody friend! Makes you a filmmaker in one way or another! As for your friend, I haven’t seen the Rhythm Section, but how was his experience working with EON?
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,518
    peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    I know what you're talking about Peter; I just think the rhetoric you're using to make your point is very flawed and has as much to do with your dislike of Brosnan as anything else.

    What makes him terrible in the GE fight? Granted, I've been very vocal about how awful the fight during the TWINE climax is, so I'm really quite interested in hearing why the GE fight is also bad; I don't think it's really that difficult to throw a punch and I think he does it quite well there. I don't buy the notion that Bean carries the sequence. If Brosnan was truly as bad as you say, and if Bean was that much better than him, people wouldn't hold the fight up as an example. The opposite would likely be true, in fact.
    peter wrote: »
    And @CraigMooreOHMSS ... Compare that stylized punch that Brozz did in your cliip to the crackling punches in CR (any fight), QoS (any fight).... Shall I continue?

    As noted above, happy to concede CR. Wonderfully raw and brutal style on display throughout the film. But I don't think the fights in QoS are sold well because they're choreographed to within an inch of their life - you can almost see the performers trying to remember the moves before they're supposed to make them. Conversely, that is not realistic to me.

    Anyone who knows combat fighting will cite Craig as the more proficient and realistic fighter vs Brozz …

    …. And audiences who don’t know any better will go for raw realistic tension than whatever the Brozz offered.

    Dalton was as good as a fighter as Brozz, but better coz he sold it (minus the bar fight in LTK);

    This is all well and good but it's not actually an answer to the question I asked. Someone "selling it" is a matter of intepretation, not fact. Not all combat fighting is the same. It wouldn't be much use to any combatants if it were.

    I can’t even… I love you @CraigMooreOHMSS… but… I’m just not understanding your perspective..

    Likewise, @peter. Nothing but respect, always.

    I'll rephrase the earlier question for clarity: what makes Brosnan objectively bad at the physical side of things? What makes all the people versed in combat worldwide so confident that he is awful at it? What is he doing wrong in the GE fight that makes it unworthy of its acclaim?

    They're all very big statements. My regular collaborator on sets in terms of fight choreography, Jay (admittedly he's more of a swords and sandals type, working on Vikings and its spin-off currently - but he knows how to fight), was pretty complimentary of the GE fight and Brosnan's performance in it during a conversation we had once upon a time. Likewise, Craig's fights in CR and QoS.

    You work as a fight choreographer?!?! Now I’m interested in hearing your take on the FRWL train fight, because that’s my absolute favorite action scene of the entire series

    Not myself, no @007ClassicBondFan. I write and direct, mainly indie shorts thus far. I'm a nobody really. But a lot of my circle have worked on bigger budget stuff. Jay Cosgrave would be the guy I'd collaborate with. He was also a stunt performer on The Rhythm Section for EON. He choreographed a scene for me a couple of years back featuring a brawl in an underpass between a drug dealer and a guy whose brother overdosed on the dealer's product. It's exhaustive work putting those scenes together, but they're always good fun.

    FEr0acaX0AEBGgC?format=jpg&name=large

    That being said, the FRWL train fight is excellent. ;)

    Writing and Directing Indie films makes you much more than a nobody friend! Makes you a filmmaker in one way or another! As for your friend, I haven’t seen the Rhythm Section, but how was his experience working with EON?

    I agree, that’s awesome that you’re a filmmaker. Make a Bond film for fun!
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,254
    They're all very big statements. My regular collaborator on sets in terms of fight choreography, Jay (admittedly he's more of a swords and sandals type, working on Vikings and its spin-off currently - but he knows how to fight), was pretty complimentary of the GE fight and Brosnan's performance in it during a conversation we had once upon a time. Likewise, Craig's fights in CR and QoS.

    @CraigMooreOHMSS , my friend and collaborater, Mic Rodgers (stunt player, second unit director, stunt coordinator and Academy Award winner for the Mic Rig), who actually worked with Daniel Craig has cited him as being by far the most realistic and physical Bond performer. This proves nothing , of course, other than when I see Brosnan fight, I don't buy it and never did. The GE fight was his best choreographed fisticuffs, but Bean's physical dominance sold that more than Brosnan... And Brosnan's physical work in the series went down hill from here (for me-- and yes, I could never stand the sword fight in DAD as it looked like two spoilt children having a spat in a sandbox).
    I'll give Brosnan this: not a bad runner.
  • Posts: 372
    I say it's down to the fight choreographer. For sure, when in CR, Craig moves in the embassy and knock the guys down (with the aerial from behind shot), you see the way he moves like an animal that he has rehearsed this down many times (as well as getting in shape).

    I don't think Brosnan ever have gotten the Craig training in his prime.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,254
    @stamper … I think it starts with the innate athleticism and physicality of the actor and their limits therein.
  • Posts: 372
    Yeah, I think Brosnan could have done it in his prime. He must have had some training. It just wasn't as intensive.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited November 2021 Posts: 8,009
    peter wrote: »
    They're all very big statements. My regular collaborator on sets in terms of fight choreography, Jay (admittedly he's more of a swords and sandals type, working on Vikings and its spin-off currently - but he knows how to fight), was pretty complimentary of the GE fight and Brosnan's performance in it during a conversation we had once upon a time. Likewise, Craig's fights in CR and QoS.

    @CraigMooreOHMSS , my friend and collaborater, Mic Rodgers (stunt player, second unit director, stunt coordinator and Academy Award winner for the Mic Rig), who actually worked with Daniel Craig has cited him as being by far the most realistic and physical Bond performer. This proves nothing , of course, other than when I see Brosnan fight, I don't buy it and never did. The GE fight was his best choreographed fisticuffs, but Bean's physical dominance sold that more than Brosnan... And Brosnan's physical work in the series went down hill from here (for me-- and yes, I could never stand the sword fight in DAD as it looked like two spoilt children having a spat in a sandbox).
    I'll give Brosnan this: not a bad runner.

    Okay, so you agree that it's not a case of "ask anyone who knows what they're doing and they'll tell you Brosnan didn't" but more "I never liked Brosnan and the people I know who worked with Craig like him better too for this sort of stuff too". They're not quite the same thing; and it's not exactly news that Craig was a more brutal physical presence than any of the actors that came before him. I think we're going to continue going around in circles here because instead of saying why Brosnan isn't a good fighter all that's being said here is that he "didn't sell it", which is not really much to work with.
    Writing and Directing Indie films makes you much more than a nobody friend! Makes you a filmmaker in one way or another! As for your friend, I haven’t seen the Rhythm Section, but how was his experience working with EON?

    He didn't have a bad word to say about them, really. The shoot itself was messy on account of Lively's injury, which threw the entire thing off schedule, but sometimes that happens. It sounded like it was a good experience, overall.
  • Posts: 1,394
    Vic Armstrong has nothing but praise for Brosnan in his autobiography.When an actor is physically capable for fight scenes,it makes the stunt and fight coordinators job much easier.

    TND is of course where David Arnold began a fantastic five film run of terrific Bond scores.I love the soundtrack to this film and play it constantly.I just so wish that the producers had brought him on a few years earlier for GE.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,254
    Okay, so you agree that it's not a case of "ask anyone who knows what they're doing and they'll tell you Brosnan didn't" but more "I never liked Brosnan and the people I know who worked with Craig like him better too for this sort of stuff too".

    I agree we’re going around in circles, @CraigMooreOHMSS but anecdotally (that’s all we can go by), I've heard more criticism about Brosnan’s pain face and lack of physical believability/fight sequences than I’ve heard praise (outside of the fans on this site). This criticism comes from professional stunt coordinators and general film fans in my circle.
    This has nothing to do with liking or not liking the actor (and I’ve admitted enjoying Brosnan the least), and has everything to do with I didn’t buy him as a fighter. I DID buy Bean’s physical performance in that climactic fight in GE far more than Brosnan.
    And after that wonderfully choreographed sequence, Brosnan’s physical work/fighting left a lot to be desired, for me. And I stand by the idea: he can’t throw a proper punch (not a film-punch, nor an IRL punch), but that’s just me.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,009
    I respect that you stand by the idea, @peter. I remain unconvinced, however. It seems that even professional stunt co-ordinators can't form a consensus on things, just like the rest of us! :)
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,254
    Very true @CraigMooreOHMSS 😂
  • @peter It’s only a short little scrap, but there is also the bit in GE where he takes the guy out on the yacht. Did he not convince you there? I agree the fights in his other films were generally poor, with TND in particular being embarassing at times. But I’ve always been impressed by the GE ones, and I do remember him getting praise for the physical side of that film.
    But I don't think the fights in QoS are sold well because they're choreographed to within an inch of their life - you can almost see the performers trying to remember the moves before they're supposed to make them. Conversely, that is not realistic to me.

    This got me thinking. How should Bond fight? I’m feeling a bit torn now that I think about it. On the one hand, while I love martial arts films, that sort of choreography doesn’t seem very Bond to me. But then it is fantasy at the end of the day, and would fight scenes like The Raid (a good balance imo, incredibly choreographed, but grounded and brutal enough to still feel vaguely “realistic”) really be too much for the world of gadget filled cars and extravagent secret bases? I’m not sure.

    But I guess even if you put aside believeability, Bond will probably always be played by an actor, rather than a martial artist. Although I do think a more action focused Bond could be an interesting and different approach. Fury Road a few years ago was just as thematically rich as any Craig film, but they told that story almost entirely through action. Bond trying that approach with an Andrew Koji, Scott Adkins type could be an interesting change of pace imo, after a wordy few films. You’d need a really good writer and director though, who could keep Bond’s sense of style and really make what dialogue there is sparkle, otherwise it could just feel like any other action movie. It’d be a very difficult approach to nail.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,009
    @thelivingroyale, that's precisely why the mention of a name like Gareth Evans in the directors thread both excites and worries me simultaneously. He's been mentioned a few times and I do often wonder what that kind of Bond would feel like.
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