Should we get a new M / Q / Moneypenny for BOND 26 and beyond ?

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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,784
    mtm wrote: »
    I know they're not totally contradictory, but it seems like the current films get criticised because they're not straightforward enough Bond-on-mission stories, but people also want to see more of the stuff that isn't Bond-on-a-mission. No wonder they can't please anyone! :)

    I could be wrong, but I think people were annoyed by the presence of Ben Whishaw's Q on the field, while of all the MI6 regulars, he is probably the one who does not rub shoulders with Bond outside the MI6 building. Ideally, developing Bond's life outside the field would happen early in the story, at that moment maybe we could see Bond at Le Cercle with M, before he is assigned a new mission. But from the moment he is on the mission, I suppose the audience wants to see him alone, without the MI6 regulars.

    So they want to see films that are only about Bond on a mission, but with loads of material where he's not on a mission? :)
  • mtm wrote: »
    So they want to see films that are only about Bond on a mission, but with loads of material where he's not on a mission? :)
    I don't think the audience absolutely wants to see Bond just on a mission, especially at a time when the norm is that the characters absolutely have to have a backstory. I may be wrong, but I think it's slightly more subtle. The audience, or at least the fanbase, isn't closed to the idea that the first act of the narrative delves more into Bond's private life, as long as it is separate from the rest of the story which would then be just a mission, without personal ties to Bond himself.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited February 2021 Posts: 14,784
    Why would anyone want a film with completely separate sections to it? Seems mad to me; that's not how films work. I want storytelling that's a bit more sophisticated than that.
  • mtm wrote: »
    Why would anyone want a film with completely separate sections to it? Seems mad to me; that's not how films work.
    Fleshing out a character and developing his world is never useless nor totally separate. That's what the first act of a narrative is for, isn't it? Introduce the characters, show them in their daily life before extracting them to send them into an environment hostile to them. Think about how in Hitchcock's Vertigo the everyday life of the character of James Stewart is presented before his old acquaintance Gavin Elster asks him to follow his wife. It can last ten minutes, enough time to show Bond going to a restaurant, meeting people. It can be totally independent of his mission but have a thematic resonance.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,784
    The earlier scenes in Vertigo aren't at all separate from the plot, no; that's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Scotty is completely changed by his experiences we see right at the beginning and we follow his journey through the film. That's the complete opposite of what people are wanting to see from Bond: they want him to undergo no personal change or learning experience whatsoever. Seeing him eat breakfast would have zero thematatic reasonance in that incidence; we would learn nothing about his journey through the film because he wouldn't have one.
  • mtm wrote: »
    Seeing him eat breakfast would have zero thematatic reasonance in that incidence; we would learn nothing about his journey through the film because he wouldn't have one.
    Taking into account the current cinematic landscape, its narrative standards, and the fact it will be a new actor's debut, I wouldn't be surprised if Bond eventually have his own arc in Bond 26. It can perfectly be limited and more of a personal questioning that the mission echoes without being directly related, but I think it will exist if it is his point of view that is adopted by the story.

    Perhaps on the contrary the point of view will be that of the female character and in which case there is no need to delves into Bond's private life. But, I think a point of view will be chosen for the story, it's consistent with the conventions of our era, and if it's Bond's, then the character will probably have his own (even limited) character journey. Thus, showing him having breakfast can be quite worthwhile to better understand this iteration of the character.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 3,952
    If Alfred can work for Bruce Wayne in a modern setting, May can work for James Bond in a modern setting as well.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,784
    mtm wrote: »
    Seeing him eat breakfast would have zero thematatic reasonance in that incidence; we would learn nothing about his journey through the film because he wouldn't have one.
    Taking into account the current cinematic landscape, its narrative standards, and the fact it will be a new actor's debut, I wouldn't be surprised if Bond eventually have his own arc in Bond 26. It can perfectly be limited and more of a personal questioning that the mission echoes without being directly related, but I think it will exist if it is his point of view that is adopted by the story.

    Perhaps on the contrary the point of view will be that of the female character and in which case there is no need to delves into Bond's private life. But, I think a point of view will be chosen for the story, it's consistent with the conventions of our era, and if it's Bond's, then the character will probably have his own (even limited) character journey. Thus, showing him having breakfast can be quite worthwhile to better understand this iteration of the character.

    But that entirely depends on the story being told; what we have here is folks deciding that they want to see him having breakfast and then hoping there's a storytelling reason for that afterwards, which isn't really how should it be. We don't even know what the story would be yet.
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    If Alfred can work for Bruce Wayne in a modern setting, May can work for James Bond in a modern setting as well.

    I'm not sure: Wayne is a billionaire and they really do have staff; guys living in a flat in London don't so much. Also I think it would just make Bond seem a bit weird that he can't make his own breakfast.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    I've always felt May would have worked better with Moore's Bond.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited February 2021 Posts: 14,784
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    I've always felt May would have worked better with Moore's Bond.

    Yeah that's a good point, that I could imagine. Certainly with it being a bit of a comedy routine, which I think he'd have played well.

    Maybe less so in the 80s films where he'd have been about the same age as her! :D
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    mtm wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    I've always felt May would have worked better with Moore's Bond.

    Yeah that's a good point, that I could imagine. Certainly with it being a bit of a comedy routine, which I think he'd have played well.

    Maybe less so in the 80s films where he'd have been about the same age as her! :D

    Exactly! :D Moore would have done wonders with it.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    edited February 2021 Posts: 3,952
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    I've always felt May would have worked better with Moore's Bond.

    Yeah that's a good point, that I could imagine. Certainly with it being a bit of a comedy routine, which I think he'd have played well.

    Maybe less so in the 80s films where he'd have been about the same age as her! :D

    Exactly! :D Moore would have done wonders with it.

    May didn’t ironically become more of a big character until John Gardener started writing in the 80s, when Moore was going back and forth with playing Bond again honestly.

    It would all depend on the tone and “how is the world personal to Bond again” style.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    I've always felt May would have worked better with Moore's Bond.

    Yeah that's a good point, that I could imagine. Certainly with it being a bit of a comedy routine, which I think he'd have played well.

    Maybe less so in the 80s films where he'd have been about the same age as her! :D

    Exactly! :D Moore would have done wonders with it.

    May didn’t ironically become more of a big character until John Gardener started writing in the 80s, when Moore was going back and forth with playing Bond again honestly.

    It would all depend on the tone and “how is the world personal to Bond again” style.

    Yeah. I just can't imagine any other Bond with May. It's Moore all day long.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited February 2021 Posts: 17,603
    echo wrote: »
    I could maybe see May as a kindly, elderly neighbor whom James helps out now and again...nah. You know it would just devolve into a May gets kidnapped/murdered and James sets out on revenge plot...

    We kind of, sort of, already got May as Kincaid in SF.

    John Gardner's already done that with having both May and Moneypenny kidnapped by Tamil Rahani's SPECTRE in Nobody Lives Forever (1986). It was done in order to try to ensnare Bond too FRWL revenge style.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,784
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I could maybe see May as a kindly, elderly neighbor whom James helps out now and again...nah. You know it would just devolve into a May gets kidnapped/murdered and James sets out on revenge plot...

    We kind of, sort of, already got May as Kincaid in SF.

    John Gardner's already done that with having both May and Moneypenny kidnapped by Tamil Rahani's SPECTRE in Nobody Lives Forever (1986). It was done in order to try to ensnare Bond too FRWL revenge style.

    Yeah, there was a bit of a feeling of a slight return of Colonel Sun's plot with that one.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited February 2021 Posts: 17,603
    mtm wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I could maybe see May as a kindly, elderly neighbor whom James helps out now and again...nah. You know it would just devolve into a May gets kidnapped/murdered and James sets out on revenge plot...

    We kind of, sort of, already got May as Kincaid in SF.

    John Gardner's already done that with having both May and Moneypenny kidnapped by Tamil Rahani's SPECTRE in Nobody Lives Forever (1986). It was done in order to try to ensnare Bond too FRWL revenge style.

    Yeah, there was a bit of a feeling of a slight return of Colonel Sun's plot with that one.

    That's true. I was going to mention that it was of course Kingsley Amis in Colonel Sun (1968) who set the kidnapping subplot ball rolling with having M kidnapped from Quarterdeck early on. John Gardner also closed his run as Bond continuation author by having M kidnapped again in Cold (1996).

    I think it is symptomatic of the kind of "shock value" idea that the Bond continuation authors seem to go in for to keep us reading. I don't think it's the sort of subplot Fleming would ever have used although ironically the assassination attempt on M by Bond at the start of TMWTGG is more out of that ballpark. Had it not already been used by Fleming it's the sort of thing you'd expect to read in a pithy opening chapter of a Bond continuation novel by Amis or Gardner.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,784
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I could maybe see May as a kindly, elderly neighbor whom James helps out now and again...nah. You know it would just devolve into a May gets kidnapped/murdered and James sets out on revenge plot...

    We kind of, sort of, already got May as Kincaid in SF.

    John Gardner's already done that with having both May and Moneypenny kidnapped by Tamil Rahani's SPECTRE in Nobody Lives Forever (1986). It was done in order to try to ensnare Bond too FRWL revenge style.

    Yeah, there was a bit of a feeling of a slight return of Colonel Sun's plot with that one.

    That's true. I was going to mention that it was of course Kingsley Amis in Colonel Sun (1968) who set the kidnapping subplot ball rolling with having M kidnapped from Quarterdeck early on. John Gardner also closed his run as Bond continuation author by having M kidnapped again in Cold (1996).

    Oh I'd forgotten about that. I can't remember anything about Cold apart from it being in two halves (and having a helicopter in, but I'm using the cover to remember that! :) ).
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I think it is symptomatic of the kind of "shock value" idea that the Bond continuation authors seem to go in for to keep us reading. I don't think it's the sort of subplot Fleming would ever have used although ironically the assassination attempt on M by Bond at the start of TMWTGG is more out of that ballpark. Had it not already been used by Fleming it's the sort of thing you'd expect to read in a pithy opening chapter of a Bond continuation novel by Amis or Gardner.

    Yes I don't think it's the sort of thing that was below Fleming. Giant squids and amnesia plots: he wasn't too picky! :)
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited February 2021 Posts: 17,603
    mtm wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I could maybe see May as a kindly, elderly neighbor whom James helps out now and again...nah. You know it would just devolve into a May gets kidnapped/murdered and James sets out on revenge plot...

    We kind of, sort of, already got May as Kincaid in SF.

    John Gardner's already done that with having both May and Moneypenny kidnapped by Tamil Rahani's SPECTRE in Nobody Lives Forever (1986). It was done in order to try to ensnare Bond too FRWL revenge style.

    Yeah, there was a bit of a feeling of a slight return of Colonel Sun's plot with that one.

    That's true. I was going to mention that it was of course Kingsley Amis in Colonel Sun (1968) who set the kidnapping subplot ball rolling with having M kidnapped from Quarterdeck early on. John Gardner also closed his run as Bond continuation author by having M kidnapped again in Cold (1996).

    Oh I'd forgotten about that. I can't remember anything about Cold apart from it being in two halves (and having a helicopter in, but I'm using the cover to remember that! :) ).
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I think it is symptomatic of the kind of "shock value" idea that the Bond continuation authors seem to go in for to keep us reading. I don't think it's the sort of subplot Fleming would ever have used although ironically the assassination attempt on M by Bond at the start of TMWTGG is more out of that ballpark. Had it not already been used by Fleming it's the sort of thing you'd expect to read in a pithy opening chapter of a Bond continuation novel by Amis or Gardner.

    Yes I don't think it's the sort of thing that was below Fleming. Giant squids and amnesia plots: he wasn't too picky! :)

    Yes, Cold is indeed a novel of two halves, set four years apart in 1990 and 1994 respectively where the previous novel, SeaFire, had left off on the ongoing story arc. The American edition, Cold Fall, makes this more explicitly clear than the British edition does, with dates being provided. There are significant differences between the editing of both texts in fact, with many things appearing in one version that don't appear in the other.

    To be honest I can hardly remember anything about the (second) M kidnapping subplot myself, other than the fact that it happens! It's sadly been too many years since I last read Cold. That's something that I need to rectify. Yes, the helicopter fight was memorable and the American main villain, General Brutus Clay, nearly met his end there. Plenty of resentment on the part of the villain was built up against Bond for the future too. As you say, the Hodder and Stoughton first edition (now worth a pretty penny due to a low print run) and the Coronet paperback edition both had the exact same vibrant helicopter art on their respective front covers.

    You're no doubt right about the kidnapping of M subplot not being below Fleming. The examples you cite show the "anything goes" aspect to his writing that wouldn't have been out of place in the continuation Bond novels that followed. No doubt today it'd be called "bats*** mental." As stated above Fleming after all had a brainwashed Bond try to assassinate M at the start of his last Bond novel! It's all much the same territory really, when you think about it. Maybe I just don't have enough creative imagination sometimes? That's probably why I stick to writing non-fiction over writing fiction! ;)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,784
    I do have a first edition hardback of it but it's an ex-library one so probably not worth anything I guess.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 17,603
    mtm wrote: »
    I do have a first edition hardback of it but it's an ex-library one so probably not worth anything I guess.

    Yes, though still nice to have a copy and worth something I'm sure. I bought two first edition copies on eBay a few years ago just to have them before they become any more expensive!
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,401
    As much as I love both Naomie Harris as Moneypenny and Ben Whishaw as Q, I think we need a new Q and Moneypenny for the next Bond.
    I think these two have been tied to Craig's Bond so much, it'll be difficult for the next actor to shake that, plus why leave room for more comparison's with Craig. I think each new Bond since Sir Roger has faired better for having there own Moneypenny especially.
    As for Fiennes as M, I'm happy for him to stay and carry over into the next run, although I hope he and MI6 staff have less screen time in the next actors run
  • Posts: 1,536
    Is your idea for having R Fiennes stay on as M, rather like when J Dench stayed on when Bond actors changed, and they clearly were not simply continuing the storyline of the prior Bond actor ? In that case, why not have Ms. Moneypenny and Q stay on, too ? Too much, is that it ? I note that when the producers pulled off that "trick" last time, they held off on introducing Ms. Moneypenny and Q until a subsequent film.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 17,603
    Since62 wrote: »
    Is your idea for having R Fiennes stay on as M, rather like when J Dench stayed on when Bond actors changed, and they clearly were not simply continuing the storyline of the prior Bond actor ? In that case, why not have Ms. Moneypenny and Q stay on, too ? Too much, is that it ? I note that when the producers pulled off that "trick" last time, they held off on introducing Ms. Moneypenny and Q until a subsequent film.

    I think their phraseology was that those characters (Miss Moneypenny and Q) had to be "earned" which I suppose was fair enough for the novel idea of a reboot Bond film. I don't think it's necessary to repeat that approach with the next Bond actor but who can say what the next approach to the film Bond will be after the current Craig era ends?
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 13,865
    I want them all to stay on, there's no reason why they can't. Maybe give them less screentime, and make up for that with memorable dialogue.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited June 2021 Posts: 4,247
    Ralph Fiennes and Ben Whishaw. I feel these two stand a better chance of continuing. But EON might recast others especially, Moneypenny. Harris is good and still beautiful. But I don't know if fans would like a younger Bond flirting with a much older Moneypenny, because Harris might be 47 or older when Bond 26 goes into production.
  • I think while the current MI6 crew is great, a refresh would be a good idea with a new Bond. I'm actually trying my hand at writing my first fan-fiction, a soft reboot concept for Bond 26 with a new MI6 staff and my head cast is;

    Colin Firth as M
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    Phoebe Waller-Bridge as Moneypenny
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    Richard Ayoade as Q
    Richard-Ayoade-009.jpg

    David Oyelowo as Bill Tanner
    david-oyelowo.jpg

    Sam Rockwell as Felix Leiter
    SHOT_02-070_2414DR_C_FOGRA39L-RF.jpg


    One can dream, but I think this supporting cast would knock it out of the park and give a fresh interpretation while keeping in the spirit of these classic characters. I'd especially be excited at the possibility of Oyelowo as Tanner if they further establish the character as Bond's closest friend in MI6.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,350
    I would like to see Wyatt Russell as Leiter and Sam Rockwell as a villain.

    Oyelowo is an inspired choice, although he might be a bit too old to be the next Bond's closest friend. If they f.e. go with Nicholas Hoult for Bond, there would be about 15 years between them. Not unreasonable, but if they want to re-introduce that type of relationship - which I don't think Craig and Kinnear have at all; Moneypenny and Q are much, much closer to Bond - I think a smaller age gap would be advisable. The problem there of course is: Would a 30-ish person be Chief of Staff to M? So maybe I am talking myself out of it again :))
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,953
    Rockwell would have been such a refreshingly fun Leiter. But I think he's too old for the role. By the time we get a new Bond he'll be in his mid 50s.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2021 Posts: 14,784
    I think while the current MI6 crew is great, a refresh would be a good idea with a new Bond. I'm actually trying my hand at writing my first fan-fiction, a soft reboot concept for Bond 26 with a new MI6 staff and my head cast is;

    Colin Firth as M

    These are pretty cracking suggestions. I agree that Rockwell might be a bit old for Leiter now, but otherwise they're great. I do like Oyelowo as Tanner, he can do that warm-but-professional really well.

  • I think while the current MI6 crew is great, a refresh would be a good idea with a new Bond.
    I really love your choices, especially Oyelowo as Tanner; however, as ImpertinentGoon wrote it, I fear he may be too old for the next Bond. Supposing cameras won't start rolling before 2024 at least, I would be tempted to think that he could be an interesting contender for the role of M, assuming Ralph Fiennes won't return. Nevertheless, I agree with that a refresh would be a good idea to begin the next era.
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