Has the use of the Colonel Sun torture scene in Spectre set a precedent for future James Bond Films?

DragonpolDragonpol The Crazy World of David Dragonpol
edited February 27 in Bond 26 & Beyond Posts: 14,005
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Obviously the use of the torture scene and the verbatim dialogue in Spectre (2015) was a big step forward in the use of the Continuation Bond novels in the official Bond film series. From reading an article in MI6 Confidential magazine I understand that the use of the Colonel Sun torture scene in Spectre was out of desperation more than anything as they couldn't make the scene effective enough, so they decided to go back to the books again. Happily, the Kingsley Amis Estate even got a mention in the credits as well as (presumably) some remuneration for the use of the torture scene. Perhaps, then, they will only use the Continuations when they are caught between a rock and a hard place in the writing of their screenplay?

So, what do we think? Will there be more overt (as opposed to covert) use of the Continuation Bond novels in the future of the James Bond films series or not? Has the use of the Colonel Sun torture scene in Spectre (2015) set a precedent for future Bond films?

Will they continue to strip mine Colonel Sun or will they move on to the John Gardner novels and beyond? It has been argued by zencat of The Book Bond blog (and others) that the Bond films have already been mining the Continuation Bonds for years, only in a more covert sense.

I personally welcome more use of the continuation novels in the Bond films, along with the use of unmined original Fleming material. Other franchises don't seem to have any problem in using the equivalent of the Bond continuation novels - see the use of the villain Bane in the Batman film The Dark Knight Rises (2012). Bane was a character who did not come from the original 1930s or 1940s Batman comics but only came along in the comic Batman: Vengeance of Bane #1 (January 1993).

So why don't Eon use the continuation novels more?

Will they just use Colonel Sun in the future as it was published fifty years ago (in March 2018) as it is set in the Fleming timeline more rigidly than what came after (Gardner, Benson and Deaver)? It is also as close to official canon as it is possible to get for a continuation Bond novel.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this fascinating subject. :)

Comments

  • Posts: 5,718
    Although I find Colonel Sun to be a great effort, nothing beats Fleming. Last year I tried to read the Gardner novels, and tapped out after Scorpious. The character in these novels has the name James Bond, but, to me, had nothing of Fleming in him. He seemed like a slightly more filled out Roger Moore Bond (although I understand that Gardner never watched any of the films while he was commissioned).

    There's plenty of inspiration in the original novels.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing South Florida
    Posts: 3,643
    There's potential in the 86 Gardner novels that were written but I could never read one all of the way through.
  • DragonpolDragonpol The Crazy World of David Dragonpol
    Posts: 14,005
    There's potential in the 86 Gardner novels that were written but I could never read one all of the way through.

    Well, there were only 16 in total. You should try to read them again.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Having revisited a few of the Gardner books recently they're not at all as good as I thought they were as a teenager.

    There are nuggets of decent stuff in there but there is also a lot of stuff we would tear P&W apart for if they came up with it (Bond shagging Leiter and Blofeld's daughter - not at the same time I hasten to add - stands out as particularly awful).

    And the Gardner continuations (Colonel Sun excepted) are by far the best.

    It would be pretty damning on EON's writers if their own ideas are so poor they started plundering the continuation novels.
  • I wouldn't mind bits of Trigger Mortis being used. Surprised we haven't seen Bond be buried alive in a film already actually.
  • DragonpolDragonpol The Crazy World of David Dragonpol
    edited December 2019 Posts: 14,005
    I wouldn't mind bits of Trigger Mortis being used. Surprised we haven't seen Bond be buried alive in a film already actually.

    I suppose the flaming coffin and placing Bond in the tunnel pipe in DAF is as close as we have got to this in the Bond films thus far.
  • Any port in a storm. I think Eon should take good material where they can find it. Don't stand on strict originality from screenwriters. The chief problem with SP, IMO, was that it was too derivative and not original enough. And there's no excuse for that because troves of worthwhile material exist in not only Bond continuation novels, but in espionage literature in general.
  • Posts: 12,921
    Didn't they already use elements from the continuations, only they never explicitly acknowledged them?

    I don't think comparing it to Batman works: Batman is a serial which from fairly early on had many contributors and many canonical aspects of the comics came after its early publications and after substantially retconning them. Sherlock Holmes would probably be a more fitting comparison: one creator, lots of continuators, many iconic elements that come from the adaptations and not the source material, etc.
  • DragonpolDragonpol The Crazy World of David Dragonpol
    edited January 2018 Posts: 14,005
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Didn't they already use elements from the continuations, only they never explicitly acknowledged them?

    Yes, they've used bits from Colonel Sun before and from some of the Gardner novels. That's what I meant by covert use, as opposed to overt use where the source is clearly acknowledged, like we had with the Amis Estate credit at the end of Spectre.

    That's in fact the only official credit or acknowledgement of the use of a Continuation Bond that we've had thus far from Eon, hence my wondering if a precedent has been set for future Bond films.
  • Having revisited a few of the Gardner books recently they're not at all as good as I thought they were as a teenager.

    There are nuggets of decent stuff in there but there is also a lot of stuff we would tear P&W apart for if they came up with it (Bond shagging Leiter and Blofeld's daughter - not at the same time I hasten to add - stands out as particularly awful).

    And the Gardner continuations (Colonel Sun excepted) are by far the best.

    It would be pretty damning on EON's writers if their own ideas are so poor they started plundering the continuation novels.

    Corrected: "Bond shagging Leiter's and Blofeld's daughters."

    English can be a tricky thing and most dangerous when deployed incorrectly.
  • DragonpolDragonpol The Crazy World of David Dragonpol
    Posts: 14,005
    Having revisited a few of the Gardner books recently they're not at all as good as I thought they were as a teenager.

    There are nuggets of decent stuff in there but there is also a lot of stuff we would tear P&W apart for if they came up with it (Bond shagging Leiter and Blofeld's daughter - not at the same time I hasten to add - stands out as particularly awful).

    And the Gardner continuations (Colonel Sun excepted) are by far the best.

    It would be pretty damning on EON's writers if their own ideas are so poor they started plundering the continuation novels.

    Corrected: "Bond shagging Leiter's and Blofeld's daughters."

    English can be a tricky thing and most dangerous when deployed incorrectly.

    Oh dear.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Having revisited a few of the Gardner books recently they're not at all as good as I thought they were as a teenager.

    There are nuggets of decent stuff in there but there is also a lot of stuff we would tear P&W apart for if they came up with it (Bond shagging Leiter and Blofeld's daughter - not at the same time I hasten to add - stands out as particularly awful).

    And the Gardner continuations (Colonel Sun excepted) are by far the best.

    It would be pretty damning on EON's writers if their own ideas are so poor they started plundering the continuation novels.

    Corrected: "Bond shagging Leiter's and Blofeld's daughters."

    English can be a tricky thing and most dangerous when deployed incorrectly.

    Fair point.

    Although I dare say having Blofeld shag a female Leiter and then Bond shagging the offspring is not beyond the realms of possibility after SP.
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Having revisited a few of the Gardner books recently they're not at all as good as I thought they were as a teenager.

    There are nuggets of decent stuff in there but there is also a lot of stuff we would tear P&W apart for if they came up with it (Bond shagging Leiter and Blofeld's daughter - not at the same time I hasten to add - stands out as particularly awful).

    And the Gardner continuations (Colonel Sun excepted) are by far the best.

    It would be pretty damning on EON's writers if their own ideas are so poor they started plundering the continuation novels.

    Corrected: "Bond shagging Leiter's and Blofeld's daughters."

    English can be a tricky thing and most dangerous when deployed incorrectly.

    Oh dear.

    Congrats Draggers - a rare and much needed win for you there.
  • DragonpolDragonpol The Crazy World of David Dragonpol
    Posts: 14,005
    Having revisited a few of the Gardner books recently they're not at all as good as I thought they were as a teenager.

    There are nuggets of decent stuff in there but there is also a lot of stuff we would tear P&W apart for if they came up with it (Bond shagging Leiter and Blofeld's daughter - not at the same time I hasten to add - stands out as particularly awful).

    And the Gardner continuations (Colonel Sun excepted) are by far the best.

    It would be pretty damning on EON's writers if their own ideas are so poor they started plundering the continuation novels.

    Corrected: "Bond shagging Leiter's and Blofeld's daughters."

    English can be a tricky thing and most dangerous when deployed incorrectly.

    Fair point.

    Although I dare say having Blofeld shag a female Leiter and then Bond shagging the offspring is not beyond the realms of possibility after SP.
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Having revisited a few of the Gardner books recently they're not at all as good as I thought they were as a teenager.

    There are nuggets of decent stuff in there but there is also a lot of stuff we would tear P&W apart for if they came up with it (Bond shagging Leiter and Blofeld's daughter - not at the same time I hasten to add - stands out as particularly awful).

    And the Gardner continuations (Colonel Sun excepted) are by far the best.

    It would be pretty damning on EON's writers if their own ideas are so poor they started plundering the continuation novels.

    Corrected: "Bond shagging Leiter's and Blofeld's daughters."

    English can be a tricky thing and most dangerous when deployed incorrectly.

    Oh dear.

    Congrats Draggers - a rare and much needed win for you there.

    No, I was thinking more of the tenacity required to take you on like that!
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited January 2018 Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Having revisited a few of the Gardner books recently they're not at all as good as I thought they were as a teenager.

    There are nuggets of decent stuff in there but there is also a lot of stuff we would tear P&W apart for if they came up with it (Bond shagging Leiter and Blofeld's daughter - not at the same time I hasten to add - stands out as particularly awful).

    And the Gardner continuations (Colonel Sun excepted) are by far the best.

    It would be pretty damning on EON's writers if their own ideas are so poor they started plundering the continuation novels.

    Corrected: "Bond shagging Leiter's and Blofeld's daughters."

    English can be a tricky thing and most dangerous when deployed incorrectly.

    Fair point.

    Although I dare say having Blofeld shag a female Leiter and then Bond shagging the offspring is not beyond the realms of possibility after SP.
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Having revisited a few of the Gardner books recently they're not at all as good as I thought they were as a teenager.

    There are nuggets of decent stuff in there but there is also a lot of stuff we would tear P&W apart for if they came up with it (Bond shagging Leiter and Blofeld's daughter - not at the same time I hasten to add - stands out as particularly awful).

    And the Gardner continuations (Colonel Sun excepted) are by far the best.

    It would be pretty damning on EON's writers if their own ideas are so poor they started plundering the continuation novels.

    Corrected: "Bond shagging Leiter's and Blofeld's daughters."

    English can be a tricky thing and most dangerous when deployed incorrectly.

    Oh dear.

    Congrats Draggers - a rare and much needed win for you there.

    No, I was thinking more of the tenacity required to take you on like that!

    Well what can I say? It's a fair cop and I hold my hands up.

    It does of course mean he has set himself up as beyond reproach so I will be keeping a close eye on his posts from now on because as he correctly points out 'English can be a tricky thing and most dangerous when deployed incorrectly'.
  • DragonpolDragonpol The Crazy World of David Dragonpol
    Posts: 14,005
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Having revisited a few of the Gardner books recently they're not at all as good as I thought they were as a teenager.

    There are nuggets of decent stuff in there but there is also a lot of stuff we would tear P&W apart for if they came up with it (Bond shagging Leiter and Blofeld's daughter - not at the same time I hasten to add - stands out as particularly awful).

    And the Gardner continuations (Colonel Sun excepted) are by far the best.

    It would be pretty damning on EON's writers if their own ideas are so poor they started plundering the continuation novels.

    Corrected: "Bond shagging Leiter's and Blofeld's daughters."

    English can be a tricky thing and most dangerous when deployed incorrectly.

    Fair point.

    Although I dare say having Blofeld shag a female Leiter and then Bond shagging the offspring is not beyond the realms of possibility after SP.
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Having revisited a few of the Gardner books recently they're not at all as good as I thought they were as a teenager.

    There are nuggets of decent stuff in there but there is also a lot of stuff we would tear P&W apart for if they came up with it (Bond shagging Leiter and Blofeld's daughter - not at the same time I hasten to add - stands out as particularly awful).

    And the Gardner continuations (Colonel Sun excepted) are by far the best.

    It would be pretty damning on EON's writers if their own ideas are so poor they started plundering the continuation novels.

    Corrected: "Bond shagging Leiter's and Blofeld's daughters."

    English can be a tricky thing and most dangerous when deployed incorrectly.

    Oh dear.

    Congrats Draggers - a rare and much needed win for you there.

    No, I was thinking more of the tenacity required to take you on like that!

    Well what can I say? It's a fair cop and I hold my hands up.

    It does of course mean he has set himself up as beyond reproach so I will be keeping a close eye on his posts from now on because as he correctly points out 'English can be a tricky thing and most dangerous when deployed incorrectly'.

    Yes, I know that. That's why it's dangerous!
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Take the bible. Arrange words in a certain order and look at the damage they have done over millennia.
  • DragonpolDragonpol The Crazy World of David Dragonpol
    Posts: 14,005
    Take the bible. Arrange words in a certain order and look at the damage they have done over millennia.

    Oh, I'm weary of that discussion. I'm going back to talking Bond again.
  • Dragonpol wrote: »
    Having revisited a few of the Gardner books recently they're not at all as good as I thought they were as a teenager.

    There are nuggets of decent stuff in there but there is also a lot of stuff we would tear P&W apart for if they came up with it (Bond shagging Leiter and Blofeld's daughter - not at the same time I hasten to add - stands out as particularly awful).

    And the Gardner continuations (Colonel Sun excepted) are by far the best.

    It would be pretty damning on EON's writers if their own ideas are so poor they started plundering the continuation novels.

    Corrected: "Bond shagging Leiter's and Blofeld's daughters."

    English can be a tricky thing and most dangerous when deployed incorrectly.

    Fair point.

    Although I dare say having Blofeld shag a female Leiter and then Bond shagging the offspring is not beyond the realms of possibility after SP.
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Having revisited a few of the Gardner books recently they're not at all as good as I thought they were as a teenager.

    There are nuggets of decent stuff in there but there is also a lot of stuff we would tear P&W apart for if they came up with it (Bond shagging Leiter and Blofeld's daughter - not at the same time I hasten to add - stands out as particularly awful).

    And the Gardner continuations (Colonel Sun excepted) are by far the best.

    It would be pretty damning on EON's writers if their own ideas are so poor they started plundering the continuation novels.

    Corrected: "Bond shagging Leiter's and Blofeld's daughters."

    English can be a tricky thing and most dangerous when deployed incorrectly.

    Oh dear.

    Congrats Draggers - a rare and much needed win for you there.

    No, I was thinking more of the tenacity required to take you on like that!

    Well what can I say? It's a fair cop and I hold my hands up.

    It does of course mean he has set himself up as beyond reproach so I will be keeping a close eye on his posts from now on because as he correctly points out 'English can be a tricky thing and most dangerous when deployed incorrectly'.

    My own writing is as open to scrutiny as anyone else's, and I welcome close attention given to my posts!

    As for the dangers of communicating in English, all I can say is:

    giphy-downsized-large.gif
  • DragonpolDragonpol The Crazy World of David Dragonpol
    Posts: 14,005
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Having revisited a few of the Gardner books recently they're not at all as good as I thought they were as a teenager.

    There are nuggets of decent stuff in there but there is also a lot of stuff we would tear P&W apart for if they came up with it (Bond shagging Leiter and Blofeld's daughter - not at the same time I hasten to add - stands out as particularly awful).

    And the Gardner continuations (Colonel Sun excepted) are by far the best.

    It would be pretty damning on EON's writers if their own ideas are so poor they started plundering the continuation novels.

    Corrected: "Bond shagging Leiter's and Blofeld's daughters."

    English can be a tricky thing and most dangerous when deployed incorrectly.

    Fair point.

    Although I dare say having Blofeld shag a female Leiter and then Bond shagging the offspring is not beyond the realms of possibility after SP.
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Having revisited a few of the Gardner books recently they're not at all as good as I thought they were as a teenager.

    There are nuggets of decent stuff in there but there is also a lot of stuff we would tear P&W apart for if they came up with it (Bond shagging Leiter and Blofeld's daughter - not at the same time I hasten to add - stands out as particularly awful).

    And the Gardner continuations (Colonel Sun excepted) are by far the best.

    It would be pretty damning on EON's writers if their own ideas are so poor they started plundering the continuation novels.

    Corrected: "Bond shagging Leiter's and Blofeld's daughters."

    English can be a tricky thing and most dangerous when deployed incorrectly.

    Oh dear.

    Congrats Draggers - a rare and much needed win for you there.

    No, I was thinking more of the tenacity required to take you on like that!

    Well what can I say? It's a fair cop and I hold my hands up.

    It does of course mean he has set himself up as beyond reproach so I will be keeping a close eye on his posts from now on because as he correctly points out 'English can be a tricky thing and most dangerous when deployed incorrectly'.

    My own writing is as open to scrutiny as anyone else's, and I welcome close attention given to my posts!

    As for the dangers of communicating in English, all I can say is:

    giphy-downsized-large.gif

    @TheWizardOfIce's arm is long and his vengeance is total. You remember that. ;)
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