What if they had Decided to Keep Brosnan?

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  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    Murdock wrote: »
    Meanwhile in my Alternate universe. ;)
    pf8R8Fhl.jpg

    How do I get to this universe?
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,331
    Murdock wrote: »
    Meanwhile in my Alternate universe. ;)
    pf8R8Fhl.jpg

    How do I get to this universe?

    I'm still figuring that out. :))
  • Posts: 15,818
    If this alternate universe includes's two more outings with Dalton before we get to Pierce's debut in GE, transport me there too, please.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,331
    Actually you will be disappointed as Pierce's debut in this universe is TLD. :))
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 684
    Pierce staying through to SP wouldn't have been good for the franchise. That said, I could see him in each of SF and SP, and in an altered CR. More than any of those, however, I'd have been on board for an extra Brosnan film in 2004 between DAD and CR. Despite DAD's flaws, Brosnan isn't one of them. He was at his peak, and I'd have looked forward to more.
    I don't know about QoS through SP, but CR wouldn've been much improved with Brosnan instead of Craig. They could've dropped the whole "rookie Bond" nonsense and shaved 20 minutes off the film for starters.

    Even more than that. The Miami sequence could conceivably have been the pre-titles.
    I just think the dynamic works much better, a veteran agent slightly worn out and cynical, but also sentimental about a life he could have had. Then the idea of a young woman giving him the opportunity to live out that life, even for a short while, would be all the more powerful. Brosnan always wanted a story with real meat to it, he would have put in a brilliant wistful performance but the script was torn from his hands. That's what I think CR needed, to be that little bit punchier. Imagine Brosnan trying on the Tux, giving Vesper that look, thinking to himself "I've still got it". It would have been great.

    I love Dan in CR, and my instinct is that he's much better suited to the source material, but this would've been a good take. Especially appreciate how the story is flipped on its head. The tux scene is a nice illustration.
    I've never been a fan of the Bond begins/complete reboot stuff. I always felt it was very unnecessary. But even if they were dead set on an origin story, it shouldn't have been CR. It works well in the first half with his two kills and showing his learning curve with his recklessness in Madagascar and then him slowly becoming the Bond we're used to in Miami. But once we get to the actual novel all of that seems pretty pointless. His only "mistake" after thatnis trusting Vesper, but Fleming's Bond made the same mistake and he wasn't a rookie. You could easily just make it a story about a seasoned agent letting his guard down when he's given the chance to get away from killing, instead of a rookie naively falling in love and being blind to the enemy. In fact it does work better. The bit where Bond looks in the mirror after killing Obano and wonders what he's doing with his life is a brilliant scene, shades of Bond at the airport in the GF novel after he kills the mexican. But in GF Bond "going soft" (as I think he puts it) made sense because all he'd seen was beginning to take an effect on him. In the context of the film it's a rookie coming to terms with this new world of violence so it still works, but it's infinitely more powerful if you get the sense that Bond has done this many times before imo. So with that in mind I think an older damaged Bond works better. Actually the sad part is even if they didn't want Brosnan, they could have easily sold Craig as a more seasoned Bond. He didn't look particuarly young. There was no reason for it to be an origin story.
    I agree. In this case the impact of a lost future is less than the loss of a new beginning -- because in CR Bond is beginning. He is beginning again soon after beginning at all, if you get me. The veteran Bond that Brosnan would've played in his CR would've had something of a history, closer to the Bond of the novel who had chosen the double-o life and knew it well.
    pachazo wrote: »
    Yes, it would have been great had they given him a better sendoff. I can see an altered version of CR (tailored to fit Brosnan's style) working. It just seems that it took a recasting of the role for them to really focus on making an incredible film again.
    This is true.
    bondjames wrote: »
    Regarding Brosnan, I also don't think he could have pulled off CR (as it was written) as well as Craig did. There are many moments in that film which required acting subtlety & a clear machismo, which isn't Brosnan's strong suit.
    On the evidence of his tenure, I agree. But a confession: weirdly in the past few years he seems to have gained a stronger sense of, as you say, 'clear machismo' -- I pick it up whenever I'm watching him, be it in his roles or his interviews. Has anyone else picked up on this or am I way, way off?
  • mattjoesmattjoes Kicking: Impossible
    Posts: 6,733
    I wish Brosnan had made more films. Him and Dalton.

    I love Moore and Connery, but as much as I would want infinite films with them, the truth is they had their six/seven.

    Strog wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Regarding Brosnan, I also don't think he could have pulled off CR (as it was written) as well as Craig did. There are many moments in that film which required acting subtlety & a clear machismo, which isn't Brosnan's strong suit.
    On the evidence of his tenure, I agree. But a confession: weirdly in the past few years he seems to have gained a stronger sense of, as you say, 'clear machismo' -- I pick it up whenever I'm watching him, be it in his roles or his interviews. Has anyone else picked up on this or am I way, way off?

    If I understand this 'clear machismo' idea correctly, I'd say Brosnan had achieved it by the time of Die Another Day.
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 684
    mattjoes wrote: »
    If I understand this 'clear machismo' idea correctly, I'd say Brosnan had achieved it by the time of Die Another Day.
    Yes, maybe slightly. There's something about his performance in DAD. A certain abrasiveness? It's not the smooth performance he gives in TND, nor the emotive one from TWINE. Maybe Brosnan had simply found the edge of his Bond a bit by 2002.

    It's tough to tell, the film was riddled so with idiotic dialogue the likes of which would bury even Connery's best efforts.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The rookie angle was in no way essential to the story, but it was necessary with a clean slate after the attrocious Brosnan era. Bond being intoduced as a "rookie" left no doubt.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 7,980
    He would have done one more film, not an adapted Casino Royale. I think they would have kept that one for a re-boot and new actor.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,331
    One last hurrah? ;)
    UafBFwMl.jpg
  • Thunderball007Thunderball007 United States
    Posts: 306
    Murdock wrote: »
    One last hurrah? ;)
    UafBFwMl.jpg

    Nice. That would be spectacular!
  • Posts: 11,189
    The film would probably have been more grounded than DAD but certainly not the quality of CR.
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 11,189
    barryt007 wrote: »
    SP is the perfect film for Brosnan....

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. The action in places reminds me of the PlayStation Brosnan games in the early 2000s and Craig basically acts like him throughout the film. It doesn't always suit him.
  • Posts: 12,837
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    SP is the perfect film for Brosnan....

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. The action in places reminds me of the PlayStation Brosnan games in the early 2000s and Craig basically acts like him throughout the film. It doesn't always suit him.

    I get what you mean but I can't picture anyone but Craig in SP. I do think that a slightly tweaked SF (Cleese in place of Wishaw, Moneypenny is just Eve and leaves at the end rather than taking a desk job) could have made a brilliant finale to the Brosnan era though.

    The more I think about it the more I'm glad it was Craig in CR. He does a great job and while I think Brosnan would have nailed the dramatic moments, he just doesn't have the physicality Craig does that made the action scenes so great.

    Shouldn't have been an origin story though. There's no reason Craig couldn't have just followed on from Brosnan as normal. Q could just have a film off or a small scene (maybe when they inject Bond with the tracking thing?), MP could have filled Villier's role, make the free running the PTS and get rid of any references to Bond being promoted. Job done.
  • Posts: 1,883
    One of the most repeated claims on Bond discussion boards the past 12 years is Brosnan "deserved" a fifth film and he would have nailed it had he been given the right material.

    Can anybody give me any real evidence as to why this would have been? Purvis and Wade seem to take all the criticism for not giving him material he could shine with. The producers held him back, etc.

    I'm not a Brosnan basher. I've just never seen any real evidence that he would have had risen to the level some fans claim he would have given the chance.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,087
    BT3366 wrote: »
    One of the most repeated claims on Bond discussion boards the past 12 years is Brosnan "deserved" a fifth film and he would have nailed it had he been given the right material.

    Funnily enough, the same has come true regarding Craig.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    If anything, Brosnan deserved less films, not more.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,087
    If anything, Brosnan deserved less films, not more.

    Funnily enough, the same has come true regarding Craig.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Troublemaker, eh?
  • Posts: 1,883
    Difference for me and many others is Craig has already nailed it. If he doesn't do another one it won't feel like unfinished business.
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 11,189
    I get the feeling Craig peaked in SF, the more times ive seen SP the less impressed I've been with him. The flimsy writing (just about) keeps him afloat.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Strog wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    If I understand this 'clear machismo' idea correctly, I'd say Brosnan had achieved it by the time of Die Another Day.
    Yes, maybe slightly. There's something about his performance in DAD. A certain abrasiveness? It's not the smooth performance he gives in TND, nor the emotive one from TWINE. Maybe Brosnan had simply found the edge of his Bond a bit by 2002.
    Indeed. Brosnan had what I'm talking about in spades in DAD. I actually contend that he has always had it. I see it in some of his earlier performances which I cite on this forum often, including The Fourth Protocol and The Noble House. It's what got me thinking he would make a fantastic, 'cold' Bond in comparison to Dalton's 'sensitive' human one. It's there in The Tailor of Panama as well. Fantastic, hard edged performance by Brosnan there. I highly recommend that film. Amazing story too, given it was written, filmed and released prior to the Iraq War fiasco.

    Sadly, he didn't bring it to Bond until it was too late. He was uncertain (although very 'cool') & hesitant in GE, overly smug in TND (watch the AVIS Q scene or the BMW chase), & effete & affected in TWINE (the infamous Baku debacle and the Banker's office).

    In DAD he brought a hard edged ruthlessness and confidence to his performance. Basically, this was the Pierce Brosnan I always wanted to see. I think The Tailor of Panama gave him the confidence to bring out his best.

    Regarding his turn as Bond, I don't blame him for that. The producers obviously have been meaning to peel off a few layers and 'expose' Bond. This could be Bab's female influence or it could be a desire to appeal to the female viewing audience. Who knows? It's just that Brosnan doesn't do that well imho. That's Craig's shtick - he's the emo Bond. Brosnan was supposed to play it cool and ruthless. He failed Bond (as he's noted) and the producers failed him.
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 11,189
    The problem with GE is you can tell he's uncomfortable and self-conscious in quite a lot of scenes (the Q scene especially).

    In TND, he may be smarmy, but you can sense he's having a bit more fun - especially in the lighter scenes with Desmond.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2017 Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    In TND, he may be smarmy, but you can sense he's having a bit more fun - especially in the lighter scenes with Desmond.
    This is the problem for me about his performance in TND. Too smug.

    As I've mentioned before, watch his Q scene in TND and compare with his R scene in DAD. I much prefer him in the latter film. He's a cold cynical b'strd there. That's what I expect from Bond. In TND it's all a bit too self aware except for Kaufmann where he's excellent.
  • Thunderball007Thunderball007 United States
    Posts: 306
    Love both Daniel Craig and Pierce Brosnan equally.
  • Posts: 14,831
    CR would have been the last Bond movie. Not Brosnan's last. THE last. An ageing Bond playing dirty uncle with Vesper, the torture scene with his pain face, the chase with Brosnan... and did I say an ageing Bond? The original CR did not have Bond as a complete rookie, but he was not seasoned either: it was relatively early in his 00 career hence he had never fought SMERSH before and had doubts about the cause he was defending. A doubting Brosnan Bond would have made no sense. And his seduction of much younger women just... no.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Brosnan's Bond made his first two kills back in 1979. The first was in a swimming pool and the second involved a cockney London gangster whose body was never found.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,032
    After DIE ANOTHER DAY and with the rights to Fleming's first book coming available, I fully expected it to be filmed with Brosnan as a Bond toward the end of his career as a double-oh. There was a general logic to that, since ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE was used with a (young, if after Connery) Bond early on when CASINO ROYALE wasn't possible. So a similar reversal was possible. Both stories serve the same purpose: to recharge a burnt-out character when he's ready to depart the service and look for happiness. And both serve up the same hard lesson.

    But filming CASINO ROYALE would have wasted its potential. It was the untold Bond story that establishes the character. To me it's simmering under the surface from the start in 1962, even though it's not presented on screen. But most of the viewing audience was unaware of a great story to be revealed.

    I was surprised the producers took the bull by the horns and made some very bold choices. Not just Craig, but to update Fleming's story (my favorite Bond book) to screen in thrilling ways, even improving on it for film. Seeing Bond's first two kills and starting with his first mission is better storytelling. How the torture scene plays out is another improvement and insight into Bond's character.

    The filmmakers made a choice to NOT put everything on the table and tick off all the boxes at once. So no Q, no Moneypenny. Familiar items like the sacrificial lamb, the martini, the car chase (and crash!), and OO7 getting captured and tortured by the villain are given a context and understanding the audience can return to. It makes sense of Bond in all forms, across Connery and Moore and the rest. That wouldn't have been possible with Brosnan, and the tone of DIE ANOTHER DAY just adds to that impossibility.

    At the time I would have kept Brosnan. I wouldn't have chosen Craig for the role. Wouldn't cast Jeffrey Wright as Leiter. Wouldn't bring Dench M forward as M. Wouldn't put Mathis' motives in question
    (or kill him off in the next film!)
    I was wrong. The producers were proven right on all counts and set the stage to rebuild the same established film formula over time across the Craig films in a more straightforward, thrilling, respectful style. There have been scheduling surprises and other redirection in the mix, but I'm obviously loving this second Golden era of Bond. And the future is bright.
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 684
    bondjames wrote: »
    Strog wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    If I understand this 'clear machismo' idea correctly, I'd say Brosnan had achieved it by the time of Die Another Day.
    Yes, maybe slightly. There's something about his performance in DAD. A certain abrasiveness? It's not the smooth performance he gives in TND, nor the emotive one from TWINE. Maybe Brosnan had simply found the edge of his Bond a bit by 2002.
    Indeed. Brosnan had what I'm talking about in spades in DAD. I actually contend that he has always had it. I see it in some of his earlier performances which I cite on this forum often, including The Fourth Protocol and The Noble House. It's what got me thinking he would make a fantastic, 'cold' Bond in comparison to Dalton's 'sensitive' human one. It's there in The Tailor of Panama as well. Fantastic, hard edged performance by Brosnan there. I highly recommend that film. Amazing story too, given it was written, filmed and released prior to the Iraq War fiasco.

    Sadly, he didn't bring it to Bond until it was too late. He was uncertain (although very 'cool') & hesitant in GE, overly smug in TND (watch the AVIS Q scene or the BMW chase), & effete & affected in TWINE (the infamous Baku debacle and the Banker's office).

    In DAD he brought a hard edged ruthlessness and confidence to his performance. Basically, this was the Pierce Brosnan I always wanted to see. I think The Tailor of Panama gave him the confidence to bring out his best.

    Regarding his turn as Bond, I don't blame him for that. The producers obviously have been meaning to peel off a few layers and 'expose' Bond. This could be Bab's female influence or it could be a desire to appeal to the female viewing audience. Who knows? It's just that Brosnan doesn't do that well imho. That's Craig's shtick - he's the emo Bond. Brosnan was supposed to play it cool and ruthless. He failed Bond (as he's noted) and the producers failed him.

    I'm going to take up that rec on THE TAILOR OF PANAMA, @bondjames . The sort of film one is always meaning to get around to but never does. I do like Pierce, so I'm looking forward to it.

    I found your last sentence particularly enlightening. I have to wonder if how much of their joint mistake came down to a mutual but flawed surface level interpretation of Pierce. By this I mean, Pierce is a good looking fellow. So was Rog. Those two are easily the most classically handsome Bonds. The rest have all been more rugged, and their Bonds have followed more cold, ruthless characterizations. Their looks naturally manifest their respective Bonds' internal psychologies, in other words. So too do Rog and Pierce's 'light' Bonds—more similar in tone to each other than to any of the others—mirror their classical handsomeness. So I'm just wondering how much discrepancy there is between the kind of Bond he appeared to be on the surface vs. what he would've been best at. (Obviously this is all dependent on a very particular interpretation of his looks.)
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    Interesting idea. I prefer Brosnan to Craig given the choice, and the angle pitched for CR would have been cool.

    Ultimately that film works better for Craig.

    Skyfall, however, would have been absolutely perfect for Brosnan. The whole "washed up and out of time" agent thing would have worked superbly and his slightly softer relationship with Judi Dench's M would have given the finale more impact.

    Finally, I wholeheartedly agree with @bondjames . I think when Brosnan went ice cold, he could do it as well as any of them, even Connery.
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