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  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    edited March 2019 Posts: 2,691
    jobo wrote: »
    I watched a bit of 'the video'. Wish I hadn't.

    What possessed you to do that?

    Agreed @jobo - I think the killer's manifesto is a call to arms for other right wing extremists. But I think White supremacy extremism has been underestimated, certainly in NZ, compared to left wing and Muslim extremism.

    After this I hope the national security forces hunt down these white supremacist hate groups that have seemed to sprung out of nowhere. NZ National Front type groups have existed before - often in the South Island - but they've been small and fairly insignificant. This kind of orchestrated and organised 'operation' is alarming and utterly unique in the country's history.


    I don´t think it has sprung out of nowhere. Right wing politics, of different radical stature is on the rise almost everywhere around the globe, and has been for some time. That it eventually would lead to extremism and violence shouldn´t come as a huge shock. But, as you say, it is about time we start taking it seriously.

    Sprung out of nowhere in NZ.
  • Posts: 7,625
    jobo wrote: »
    I watched a bit of 'the video'. Wish I hadn't.

    What possessed you to do that?

    Agreed @jobo - I think the killer's manifesto is a call to arms for other right wing extremists. But I think White supremacy extremism has been underestimated, certainly in NZ, compared to left wing and Muslim extremism.

    After this I hope the national security forces hunt down these white supremacist hate groups that have seemed to sprung out of nowhere. NZ National Front type groups have existed before - often in the South Island - but they've been small and fairly insignificant. This kind of orchestrated and organised 'operation' is alarming and utterly unique in the country's history.


    I don´t think it has sprung out of nowhere. Right wing politics, of different radical stature is on the rise almost everywhere around the globe, and has been for some time. That it eventually would lead to extremism and violence shouldn´t come as a huge shock. But, as you say, it is about time we start taking it seriously.

    Sprung out of nowhere in NZ.

    Not nowhere they weren't really looking, and nobody had heard of this nobody before. This is just a new breed of discontents who were created through the power of the internet and have radicalized silently. He has shown that the social media can be used for bad while doing a live feed on FB and Twitter. And the sympathizers will make sure that the footage will be used and will pop up until the end of time.

    It seems that terrorism is back, even some sort of new IRA is back at work, we are in for a rocky ride while being targeted by fanatics that believe their own stuff and do not have any respect for any thought that does not compare to their own.

    My respects to the fallen victims in New Zealand. And I hope that the other casualties will pull through.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 6,838
    @Major_Boothroyd glad that you're ok. I have family in NZ but they all live North (or in Australia by now). I've had the honour of visiting Aoteora twice. It's the most friendly, open and humble country one could go to. A country where the dissapearance of two teens stays in the public memory for more then 10 years (was there in 98 or 99 when they dissapeared, it was still in the news in 2007 when I visited again).
    So this is the most blunt, horrific and vile attack on humanity possible. It goes to show what hate speech does to people, even though their surroundings are as peace loving as can be.

    To all Kiwi's, hang in there, this won't be forgotten but hopefully will be a historic anomaly.
    For those who'd like to help the victims:
    www.givealittle.co.nz

    Site does go down now and then because of too many visitors, but 'try and try again'.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 16,202
    I'm so sorry my NZ friends! :(
  • Posts: 12,138
    thoughts and prayers to NZ tonight.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 16,202
    Annnnnnd.... Trump doesn't see White Nationalism as a growing problem. The very nature of his crime family, oops, sorry, ADMINISTRATION, has promoted it. Very fine people they are NOT. NZ has sadly been caught up in the sickness that has been magnified by my American POTUS. Sincerest apologies NZ, for whatever role we inadvertently played in this. Hate speech is not free speech. Hate speech come with the highest price-tag of all...
  • ThrasosThrasos California
    edited March 2019 Posts: 1,187
    I just think it's laughable to try to connect Trump to this, because no one is responsible for another person's actions.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Hamburg, near the Atlantic Hotel
    Posts: 5,929
    Thrasos wrote: »
    I just think it's laughable to try to connect Trump to this, because no one is responsible for another person's actions.
    Not sure how much blame really goes to Trump for this particular incident, but your position is of course wrong. People who instigate hate and who condone and propagandize, or merely trivialize, crime are always responsible for others acting accordingly, even if they are not the same ones that pull the trigger. Or are you saying that Osama bin Laden was not responsible for the pilots on 9/11? The masterminds and hatemongers, whichever kind of -ists they may be, may not have actual blood on theiir hands, but they're still soaked in it all over.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,277
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Annnnnnd.... Trump doesn't see White Nationalism as a growing problem. The very nature of his crime family, oops, sorry, ADMINISTRATION, has promoted it. Very fine people they are NOT. NZ has sadly been caught up in the sickness that has been magnified by my American POTUS. Sincerest apologies NZ, for whatever role we inadvertently played in this. Hate speech is not free speech. Hate speech come with the highest price-tag of all...

    What is 'hate speech', exactly? How do you define it? Anything you don't personally agree with?
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded Dancing at midnight under the BeBop Moon
    Posts: 11,756
    @Thrasos, one of the terrorists/shooters wrote that Trump did influence him.
    So yes, even without the obvious argument to be made, this time here you actually have the perpetrator naming Trump specifically. And no, I don't want his writings posted here. But I did want to clarify that.
  • edited March 2019 Posts: 4,264
    Like previous terror attacks, politicians from all over the globe rush forward with their press releases, thoughts and prayers together with knee jerk statements that lack insight and the luxury of time.

    @LeonardPine The "hate speak" point is well made. Amazon and Waterstones are well stocked with books that critique the values of Islam. Do we ban them? What exactly is "hate speak"? where did this phrase come from? I've never seen it applied to historical events. The same for "Islamophopia". There is no proper, grown up debate around these issues. These words are included within glib, crowd pleasing sound bites but where does free speech and free thought fit in? These are complex issues and our leaders (and the media) do us no favours in that we lack a complex/subtle/nuanced debating environment in which to have these discussions.

    PS another issue is that social media firms are portrayed as the bad guys with most politicians having not even the slightest grasp of how the internet works. A more important/meaningful question is why are there are so many people around the globe who want to re-upload this video? The internet is simply the infrastructure but it has no morality of it's own. The core issue is the morality of our own society. But, again , too complex an issue so lets just start bashing Facebook. Youtube etc
  • edited March 2019 Posts: 454
    I'm one who is in full agreement that "we" need to better call out terrorism for what it is, regardless of the perpetrator's background. And by "we," I mean the media, government officials, etc.

    That said, outside of his rallies and since taking presidency, Trump is just pot-stirring, not promoting violence. (I'll agree that "punch him in the face" and "should have been roughed up" are particularly concerning and not acceptable.) But let's be real here, both sides of the aisle have been stirring the pot to generate political energy and the side effect from that is violence. That includes the the last VP candidate and former government officials.

    If you blame Trump, then the same goes for everyone else, including those who have said "to fight in the streets," that the "mad king and his handlers go bye bye," 'to March and bleed in the streets,' to "pimp your wife and make her work for us," and the various calls for assassination of the president (Shakespeare in the Park, decapitated head, the list goes on).

    Let's also remember, Trump was a product of the times, not the creator of it. Trump was the antidote to the sycophant-in-cheif, with his raw and unwaivering tone and disregard for political taboos.
  • edited March 2019 Posts: 3,128
    JamesStock wrote: »
    I'm one who is in full agreement that "we" need to better call out terrorism for what it is, regardless of the perpetrator's background. And by "we," I mean the media, government officials, etc.

    That said, outside of his rallies and since taking presidency, Trump is just pot-stirring, not promoting violence. (I'll agree that "punch him in the face" and "should have been roughed up" are particularly concerning and not acceptable.) But let's be real here, both sides of the aisle have been stirring the pot to generate political energy and the side effect from that is violence. That includes the the last VP candidate and former government officials.

    If you blame Trump, then the same goes for everyone else, including those who have said "to fight in the streets," that the "mad king and his handlers go bye bye," 'to March and bleed in the streets,' to "pimp your wife and make her work for us," and the various calls for assassination of the president (Shakespeare in the Park, decapitated head, the list goes on).

    Let's also remember, Trump was a product of the times, not the creator of it. Trump was the antidote to the sycophant-in-cheif, with his raw and unwaivering tone and disregard for political taboos.

    "The sycophant-in-chief"? (spelling corrected, you're welcome) What in the world are you talking about? At the very least, I think it irrefutable that America was far more respected by the rest of the world when Barack Obama was President than is the case nowadays. And Shakespeare in the Park is the bad guy in your world? "The play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king." --Hamlet

    (I'll ignore the part about pimping one's wife, other than to ask: what IS it about cuckolding for you people??? Insecure much?)

    But regarding the larger point of whether or not Trump is actually promoting violence: you may or may not have caught Trump's recent statement in that noted purveyor of balanced dialogue, Breitbart News, where he's essentially threatening more than half of the population of his country with a second civil war. In case you missed it, here we are: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/donald-trump-breitbart-violence-supporters_n_5c8af499e4b0d7f6b0f167a8/
    https://www.esquire.com/uk/latest-news/a26833407/trump-it-would-be-very-bad-if-my-biker-friends-got-tough-on-left-wing-opponents/ "Nice country you got here. It'd be too bad if somebody with weapons was to use them on those disloyal leftists. I'm just sayin', ya know whadImean?" No, Trump obviously didn't actually pull the trigger in New Zealand. Yes, he clearly inspired the shooter's actions. The shooter himself said so, when are we going to take these monsters' own words and actions at face value?
  • Posts: 6,417
    Yes, lets not pretend that you can't say whatever you want without taking the slightest responsibility! And especially, lets not pretend that the POTUS should carry any more responsibility than the normal man in the street. He is only the President after all. It is not like that position carries any role as an ambassador or a need to act responsible with it at all...
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited March 2019 Posts: 16,202
    JamesStock wrote: »
    Trump was the antidote to the sycophant-in-cheif, with his raw and unwaivering tone and disregard for political taboos.
    Forgive me here, but this needs some nailing down with explanation & examples, lest I believe that you are just mindlessly parroting meaningless anti-left hot air...

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 16,202
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Annnnnnd.... Trump doesn't see White Nationalism as a growing problem. The very nature of his crime family, oops, sorry, ADMINISTRATION, has promoted it. Very fine people they are NOT. NZ has sadly been caught up in the sickness that has been magnified by my American POTUS. Sincerest apologies NZ, for whatever role we inadvertently played in this. Hate speech is not free speech. Hate speech come with the highest price-tag of all...

    What is 'hate speech', exactly? How do you define it? Anything you don't personally agree with?

    It's pretty simple, hate speech is lies about a particular person or group coupled with the idea that killing that individual or group will work towards solving the problem the lies are backing up.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded Dancing at midnight under the BeBop Moon
    edited March 2019 Posts: 11,756
    I'll add this, but that's all from me just now. This NZ terrorism/alt right scum racist violence, this tragedy will keep unfolding. The layers and pervasiveness of violent racist alt right influence are all over many kinds of social media. That is something we need to stay quite aware of. More than one influence, sure. But leaders of nations should be held to a standard higher than your bigoted cousin who spouts hateful regurgitated rhetoric without prompting, facts, or morals.

  • Posts: 4,264
    @chrisisall Obviously, you have every right to define words as you see fit but the fact that your definition is different from other sources tends to confirm my fear that people are debating a topic using words for which people can't agree what they actually mean. If we can't agree on the meaning of our own words, what chance any type of progress?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

    hate speech
    noun
    noun: hate speech

    abusive or threatening speech or writing that expresses prejudice against a particular group, especially on the basis of race, religion, or sexual orientation.
    "we don't tolerate any form of hate speech"

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/hate-speech



  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 16,202
    patb wrote: »
    @chrisisall Obviously, you have every right to define words as you see fit but the fact that your definition is different from other sources tends to confirm my fear that people are debating a topic using words for which people can't agree what they actually mean. If we can't agree on the meaning of our own words, what chance any type of progress?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

    hate speech
    noun
    noun: hate speech

    abusive or threatening speech or writing that expresses prejudice against a particular group, especially on the basis of race, religion, or sexual orientation.
    "we don't tolerate any form of hate speech"

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/hate-speech



    I was defining hate speech in terms of what was immediately dangerous and most legally actionable. The general term encompasses a fair bit more than what I was targeting.
  • edited March 2019 Posts: 4,264
    Don't want to go off topic but, yes, you literally defined the word according to your own terms. I mean this with respect but, you actually just made up the defintion yourself? If you are dong this, then others are too.

    We see politicans and religious leaders calling for a crack down on hate speech but I fear that they are doing the same thing: literally defining this within their own terms of reference rather calling for a proper discussion regarding what exactly do we mean (or can agree ) is hate speech (is it actually a useful phrase?) and how that sits with respecting the rights of groups and the wider right of free speech.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 16,202
    patb wrote: »
    Don't want to go off topic but, yes, you literally defined the word according to your own terms. I mean this with respect but, you actually just made up the defintion yourself? If you are dong this, then others are too.

    We see politicans and religious leaders calling for a crack down on hate speech but I fear that they are doing the same thing: literally defining this within their own terms of reference rather calling for a proper discussion regarding what exactly do we mean (or can agree ) is hate speech (is it actually a useful phrase?) and how that sits with respecting the rights of groups and the wider right of free speech.

    Your point is well taken. We live in a time where agreement is nearly impossible. Everyone makes up not only their own meanings, but their own facts as well. I was attempting to define what it should (IMO) AT LEAST mean. But then, advocacy of contraception is hate speech against God to some. Common sense is not at all common. Another phrase that means nothing these days.
  • ThrasosThrasos California
    edited March 2019 Posts: 1,187
    @Thrasos, one of the terrorists/shooters wrote that Trump did influence him.
    So yes, even without the obvious argument to be made, this time here you actually have the perpetrator naming Trump specifically. And no, I don't want his writings posted here. But I did want to clarify that.
    You're right, he did name him, but he did not write that Trump influenced him, just that he liked some of what Trump is about or did. I say that isn't the same as influence, and Trump wasn't the only person he named. When the deranged murderer livestreamed the killings, he said people should go to YouTube and subscribe to PewDiePie, a Swedish YouTuber, comedian and video game player–commentator. Did PewDiePie influence the attack? The suspect accused politicians on the left of helping to destroy the natural environment through mass immigration and uncontrolled urbanization, so maybe he was mad at Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and others on the left. Wikipedia says the murderer also mentioned other people in his manifesto, including British fascist leader Sir Oswald Mosley as one of his political idols, London mayor Sadiq Khan, Angela Merkel, and expressed support for Anders Behring Breivik, Luca Traini, Dylann Roof, Anton Lundin Pettersson, and Darren Osborne.
  • edited March 2019 Posts: 4,264
    "You're right, he did name him, but he did not write that Trump influenced him,"

    We can only second guess whether Trump had any influence on this guy. His thought processes were twisted and complex. Also, it's already clear that we has and wants to exploit the media for his own agenda. If he thinks blaming Trump or being influenced by him will get him more coverage (even if it's not true), he will make that statement. But so many would love to blame Trump that it fits their agenda and we get side tracked into USA politics. We should not be taking too much at face value IMHO
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 6,838
    The quote as taken from NBC:
    "The manifesto also makes a brief reference to President Donald Trump.

    “Were/are you a supporter of Donald Trump?” was one of the questions he posed to himself. His answer: “As a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose? Sure. As a policy maker and leader? Dear god no.”."


    Make out of it what you want. To me, those who have tried to get their own political agenda across so shortly after these attacks, should ask themselves if that's what you want to do- further polarise in the face of such human loss in one of thesafest countries in the world. That goes just as much for A.O.Cortes as for Trump jr. And even more so for Erdogan.

    The good news: givealittle has collected over 4.5 million NZ Dollar. already.

    And these stories need to be told as well:

    https://www.smh.com.au/world/oceania/the-hero-like-the-villain-of-the-christchurch-attack-is-an-australian-20190317-p514xf.html


  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,534
    At least one killed in a terror attack aboard a tram in the Dutch city of Utrecht.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47611811
  • Posts: 19,339
    3 dead and nine injured now x terror cowardly bastard attack by a Muslim Turk .
  • Posts: 12,138
    Thoughts and prayers to those effected in the Netherlands. RIP.
  • Sorry to hear about the shooting in the Netherlands. Here in the US, an actual congresscritter is threatening roughly half of his country with civil war and several trillion bullets. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/steve-king-civil-war-graphic_n_5c8ef5b9e4b03e83bdc25c86
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    What happened in the Netherlands?
  • 007Blofeld007Blofeld In the freedom of the West.
    Posts: 3,126
    This is what I sadly see happening a terrorist group attack dual to out do each other between extremist groups ugh looks like its happening
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