Does Spectre actually make any sense?

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  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    edited October 2019 Posts: 1,165
    Minion wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    But a fair amount of your list is illogical. You think it doesn't make sense that Mr White doesn't tell Bond in explicit terms what L'Americain is. I can't comprehend why you would think that.

    Because White has no reason to make Bond waste time.
    Mr. White felt his daughter could be a target as well. He offers up L'Americain as a thread to follow, but omits just enough to force Bond to find and safeguard his daughter to uncover the rest of what he needs to know. With Spectre after him, Mr. White would have deduced Madeleine was in danger as well.

    Didn't 'deduce' that he was being recorded by his own video camera no less, did he?

    I mean, the guy was dying of thallium poisoning... given the circumstances, I'm okay chalking that plot convenience up to Mr. White slipping up. Could they have been more clever about it? Sure, but its hardly the most egregious example of lazy writing in Bond's history. After all, Bond had the headstart he needed to get to Madeleine first. You want sloppy, look at Helga Brandt's attempt to kill Bond in YOLT. Now that is bad writing.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    Minion wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    But a fair amount of your list is illogical. You think it doesn't make sense that Mr White doesn't tell Bond in explicit terms what L'Americain is. I can't comprehend why you would think that.

    Because White has no reason to make Bond waste time.
    Mr. White felt his daughter could be a target as well. He offers up L'Americain as a thread to follow, but omits just enough to force Bond to find and safeguard his daughter to uncover the rest of what he needs to know. With Spectre after him, Mr. White would have deduced Madeleine was in danger as well.

    Didn't 'deduce' that he was being recorded by his own video camera no less, did he?

    I like how you can move swiftly from not understanding broad, basic character motivations to this minor nitpick, but you can imagine your way out of this issue, or just read my comment above.

    Hardly a 'minor nitpick' since Hinx would have no knowledge of Madeleine's whereabouts if not for the camera...
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    Minion wrote: »
    Minion wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    But a fair amount of your list is illogical. You think it doesn't make sense that Mr White doesn't tell Bond in explicit terms what L'Americain is. I can't comprehend why you would think that.

    Because White has no reason to make Bond waste time.
    Mr. White felt his daughter could be a target as well. He offers up L'Americain as a thread to follow, but omits just enough to force Bond to find and safeguard his daughter to uncover the rest of what he needs to know. With Spectre after him, Mr. White would have deduced Madeleine was in danger as well.

    Didn't 'deduce' that he was being recorded by his own video camera no less, did he?

    I mean, the guy was dying of thallium poisoning... given the circumstances, I'm okay chalking that plot convenience up to Mr. White slipping up. Could they have been more clever about it? Sure, but its hardly the most egregious example of lazy writing in Bond's history. After all, Bond had the headstart he needed to get to Madeleine first. You want sloppy, look at Helga Brandt's attempt to kill Bond in YOLT. Now that is bad writing.

    That's all well and good, but the title of this thread is 'Does SPECTRE make any sense?' so comparing it with another Bond film is redundant.

    It's nice that members are trying to justify the bad writing in this film but most of it really is indefensible.



  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,693
    Minion wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    But a fair amount of your list is illogical. You think it doesn't make sense that Mr White doesn't tell Bond in explicit terms what L'Americain is. I can't comprehend why you would think that.

    Because White has no reason to make Bond waste time.
    Mr. White felt his daughter could be a target as well. He offers up L'Americain as a thread to follow, but omits just enough to force Bond to find and safeguard his daughter to uncover the rest of what he needs to know. With Spectre after him, Mr. White would have deduced Madeleine was in danger as well.

    Didn't 'deduce' that he was being recorded by his own video camera no less, did he?

    I like how you can move swiftly from not understanding broad, basic character motivations to this minor nitpick, but you can imagine your way out of this issue, or just read my comment above.

    Hardly a 'minor nitpick' since Hinx would have no knowledge of Madeleine's whereabouts if not for the camera...

    Well, it didn't appear in your long, silly list earlier! Previously you were baffled as to why James Bond's close friend Mr White would hold back inormation from him, thus forcing him to find his daughter White wanted Bond to protect! It was just so confusing!

    But to be consistent, I won't object to you retconning your Spectre grievances. ;-)

    Also, see Minion's very good comment above. +1!
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    Minion wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    But a fair amount of your list is illogical. You think it doesn't make sense that Mr White doesn't tell Bond in explicit terms what L'Americain is. I can't comprehend why you would think that.

    Because White has no reason to make Bond waste time.
    Mr. White felt his daughter could be a target as well. He offers up L'Americain as a thread to follow, but omits just enough to force Bond to find and safeguard his daughter to uncover the rest of what he needs to know. With Spectre after him, Mr. White would have deduced Madeleine was in danger as well.

    Didn't 'deduce' that he was being recorded by his own video camera no less, did he?

    I like how you can move swiftly from not understanding broad, basic character motivations to this minor nitpick, but you can imagine your way out of this issue, or just read my comment above.

    Hardly a 'minor nitpick' since Hinx would have no knowledge of Madeleine's whereabouts if not for the camera...

    Well, it didn't appear in your long, silly list earlier! Previously you were baffled as to why James Bond's close friend Mr White would hold back inormation from him, thus forcing him to find his daughter White wanted Bond to protect! It was just so confusing!

    But to be consistent, I won't object to you retconning your Spectre grievances. ;-)

    Also, see Minion's very good comment above. +1!

    :))

    High five, Professor. :)
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    Minion wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    But a fair amount of your list is illogical. You think it doesn't make sense that Mr White doesn't tell Bond in explicit terms what L'Americain is. I can't comprehend why you would think that.

    Because White has no reason to make Bond waste time.
    Mr. White felt his daughter could be a target as well. He offers up L'Americain as a thread to follow, but omits just enough to force Bond to find and safeguard his daughter to uncover the rest of what he needs to know. With Spectre after him, Mr. White would have deduced Madeleine was in danger as well.

    Didn't 'deduce' that he was being recorded by his own video camera no less, did he?

    I like how you can move swiftly from not understanding broad, basic character motivations to this minor nitpick, but you can imagine your way out of this issue, or just read my comment above.

    Hardly a 'minor nitpick' since Hinx would have no knowledge of Madeleine's whereabouts if not for the camera...

    Well, it didn't appear in your long, silly list earlier! Previously you were baffled as to why James Bond's close friend Mr White would hold back inormation from him, thus forcing him to find his daughter White wanted Bond to protect! It was just so confusing!

    But to be consistent, I won't object to you retconning your Spectre grievances. ;-)

    Also, see Minion's very good comment above. +1!

    Well if my list is 'silly' that is of course your opinion. But you haven't actually addressed each item on it in any way shape or form.

    And i certainly wasn't 'baffled' by Mr White's reluctance to spill the beans to Bond. I understand it's what the scriptwriters needed to occur. As i stated, the plot actually moves forward by characters not giving information.

    I'd actually forgotten about the camera recording everything until i started commenting on this thread so forgive me for bringing it up late.

    Although it does make the scene even more ridiculous since White is giving info to save his daughter and ends up giving SPECTRE her address...!
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,693
    Minion wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    But a fair amount of your list is illogical. You think it doesn't make sense that Mr White doesn't tell Bond in explicit terms what L'Americain is. I can't comprehend why you would think that.

    Because White has no reason to make Bond waste time.
    Mr. White felt his daughter could be a target as well. He offers up L'Americain as a thread to follow, but omits just enough to force Bond to find and safeguard his daughter to uncover the rest of what he needs to know. With Spectre after him, Mr. White would have deduced Madeleine was in danger as well.

    Didn't 'deduce' that he was being recorded by his own video camera no less, did he?

    I like how you can move swiftly from not understanding broad, basic character motivations to this minor nitpick, but you can imagine your way out of this issue, or just read my comment above.

    Hardly a 'minor nitpick' since Hinx would have no knowledge of Madeleine's whereabouts if not for the camera...

    Well, it didn't appear in your long, silly list earlier! Previously you were baffled as to why James Bond's close friend Mr White would hold back inormation from him, thus forcing him to find his daughter White wanted Bond to protect! It was just so confusing!

    But to be consistent, I won't object to you retconning your Spectre grievances. ;-)

    Also, see Minion's very good comment above. +1!

    Well if my list is 'silly' that is of course your opinion. But you haven't actually addressed each item on it in any way shape or form.

    And i certainly wasn't 'baffled' by Mr White's reluctance to spill the beans to Bond. I understand it's what the scriptwriters needed to occur. As i stated, the plot actually moves forward by characters not giving information.

    I'd actually forgotten about the camera recording everything until i started commenting on this thread so forgive me for bringing it up late.

    Although it does make the scene even more ridiculous since White is giving info to save his daughter and ends up giving SPECTRE her address...!

    I addressed the bulk of the list soon after you posted it.

    I won't explain it again, because it's been explained as simply as possible, but Mr Whites holding back of info isn't mere script contrivance, it's literally the course of action that makes sense for him.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    1) This has nothing to do with Mr White's reasons for not explaining L'Americain to Bond, reasons you didn't seem to understand
    I never said it did, but feel free to twist my words whichever way you want. ;)
    Minion wrote: »
    Minion wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    But a fair amount of your list is illogical. You think it doesn't make sense that Mr White doesn't tell Bond in explicit terms what L'Americain is. I can't comprehend why you would think that.

    Because White has no reason to make Bond waste time.
    Mr. White felt his daughter could be a target as well. He offers up L'Americain as a thread to follow, but omits just enough to force Bond to find and safeguard his daughter to uncover the rest of what he needs to know. With Spectre after him, Mr. White would have deduced Madeleine was in danger as well.

    Didn't 'deduce' that he was being recorded by his own video camera no less, did he?

    I mean, the guy was dying of thallium poisoning... given the circumstances, I'm okay chalking that plot convenience up to Mr. White slipping up. Could they have been more clever about it? Sure, but its hardly the most egregious example of lazy writing in Bond's history. After all, Bond had the headstart he needed to get to Madeleine first. You want sloppy, look at Helga Brandt's attempt to kill Bond in YOLT. Now that is bad writing.

    That's all well and good, but the title of this thread is 'Does SPECTRE make any sense?' so comparing it with another Bond film is redundant.

    Not to mention it's an example of whataboutism, a logical fallacy which forum users should stop reiterating.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985

    Minion wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    But a fair amount of your list is illogical. You think it doesn't make sense that Mr White doesn't tell Bond in explicit terms what L'Americain is. I can't comprehend why you would think that.

    Because White has no reason to make Bond waste time.
    Mr. White felt his daughter could be a target as well. He offers up L'Americain as a thread to follow, but omits just enough to force Bond to find and safeguard his daughter to uncover the rest of what he needs to know. With Spectre after him, Mr. White would have deduced Madeleine was in danger as well.

    Didn't 'deduce' that he was being recorded by his own video camera no less, did he?

    I like how you can move swiftly from not understanding broad, basic character motivations to this minor nitpick, but you can imagine your way out of this issue, or just read my comment above.

    Hardly a 'minor nitpick' since Hinx would have no knowledge of Madeleine's whereabouts if not for the camera...

    Well, it didn't appear in your long, silly list earlier! Previously you were baffled as to why James Bond's close friend Mr White would hold back inormation from him, thus forcing him to find his daughter White wanted Bond to protect! It was just so confusing!

    But to be consistent, I won't object to you retconning your Spectre grievances. ;-)

    Also, see Minion's very good comment above. +1!

    Well if my list is 'silly' that is of course your opinion. But you haven't actually addressed each item on it in any way shape or form.

    And i certainly wasn't 'baffled' by Mr White's reluctance to spill the beans to Bond. I understand it's what the scriptwriters needed to occur. As i stated, the plot actually moves forward by characters not giving information.

    I'd actually forgotten about the camera recording everything until i started commenting on this thread so forgive me for bringing it up late.

    Although it does make the scene even more ridiculous since White is giving info to save his daughter and ends up giving SPECTRE her address...!

    I addressed the bulk of the list soon after you posted it.

    I won't explain it again, because it's been explained as simply as possible, but Mr Whites holding back of info isn't mere script contrivance, it's literally the course of action that makes sense for him.

    And the camera? Any idea as to why an intelligent man like Mr White would give his daughters whereabouts while being recorded? I mean, it wasn't like it was a small camera...

    I must admit i'm enjoying some of the the excuses being used for poor scripwriting.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,693
    Minion wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    But a fair amount of your list is illogical. You think it doesn't make sense that Mr White doesn't tell Bond in explicit terms what L'Americain is. I can't comprehend why you would think that.

    Because White has no reason to make Bond waste time.
    Mr. White felt his daughter could be a target as well. He offers up L'Americain as a thread to follow, but omits just enough to force Bond to find and safeguard his daughter to uncover the rest of what he needs to know. With Spectre after him, Mr. White would have deduced Madeleine was in danger as well.

    Didn't 'deduce' that he was being recorded by his own video camera no less, did he?

    I like how you can move swiftly from not understanding broad, basic character motivations to this minor nitpick, but you can imagine your way out of this issue, or just read my comment above.

    Hardly a 'minor nitpick' since Hinx would have no knowledge of Madeleine's whereabouts if not for the camera...

    Well, it didn't appear in your long, silly list earlier! Previously you were baffled as to why James Bond's close friend Mr White would hold back inormation from him, thus forcing him to find his daughter White wanted Bond to protect! It was just so confusing!

    But to be consistent, I won't object to you retconning your Spectre grievances. ;-)

    Also, see Minion's very good comment above. +1!

    Well if my list is 'silly' that is of course your opinion. But you haven't actually addressed each item on it in any way shape or form.

    And i certainly wasn't 'baffled' by Mr White's reluctance to spill the beans to Bond. I understand it's what the scriptwriters needed to occur. As i stated, the plot actually moves forward by characters not giving information.

    I'd actually forgotten about the camera recording everything until i started commenting on this thread so forgive me for bringing it up late.

    Although it does make the scene even more ridiculous since White is giving info to save his daughter and ends up giving SPECTRE her address...!

    I addressed the bulk of the list soon after you posted it.

    I won't explain it again, because it's been explained as simply as possible, but Mr Whites holding back of info isn't mere script contrivance, it's literally the course of action that makes sense for him.

    And the camera? Any idea as to why an intelligent man like Mr White would give his daughters whereabouts while being recorded? I mean, it wasn't like it was a small camera...

    I must admit i'm enjoying some of the the excuses being used for poor scripwriting.

    I am so weak...

    Do you still think it would have been an example of better screenwriting if White had explained to Bond exactly what L'Americain was, and how to get there?

    You know, sometimes I'll watch a movie, and a camera movement or repeated piece of dialogue will spell out in painful, redundant simplicity what a character's already clear motivation is. And I used to wonder why screenwriters feel they have to be so remedial in their exposition.

    I don't wonder so much any more.
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    Posts: 2,541
    Minion wrote: »
    Minion wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    But a fair amount of your list is illogical. You think it doesn't make sense that Mr White doesn't tell Bond in explicit terms what L'Americain is. I can't comprehend why you would think that.

    Because White has no reason to make Bond waste time.
    Mr. White felt his daughter could be a target as well. He offers up L'Americain as a thread to follow, but omits just enough to force Bond to find and safeguard his daughter to uncover the rest of what he needs to know. With Spectre after him, Mr. White would have deduced Madeleine was in danger as well.

    Didn't 'deduce' that he was being recorded by his own video camera no less, did he?

    I like how you can move swiftly from not understanding broad, basic character motivations to this minor nitpick, but you can imagine your way out of this issue, or just read my comment above.

    Hardly a 'minor nitpick' since Hinx would have no knowledge of Madeleine's whereabouts if not for the camera...

    Well, it didn't appear in your long, silly list earlier! Previously you were baffled as to why James Bond's close friend Mr White would hold back inormation from him, thus forcing him to find his daughter White wanted Bond to protect! It was just so confusing!

    But to be consistent, I won't object to you retconning your Spectre grievances. ;-)

    Also, see Minion's very good comment above. +1!

    :))

    High five, Professor. :)

    +2 well done both of you
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    Still waiting for an explanation for the video camera...

  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    edited October 2019 Posts: 1,165
    Still waiting for an explanation for the video camera...
    You're operating in a universe where characters need to have needle perfect precision in their actions. People make mistakes, and Mr. White - a dying Mr. White, mind you - made an error which helped the plot along. It isn't the most clever way to achieve that end, but you yourself admitted that you had completely forgotten about it, so it seems it served its purpose of setting up the second act chase sequence.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,693
    Minion wrote: »
    Still waiting for an explanation for the video camera...
    You're operating in a universe where characters need to have needle perfect precision in their actions. People make mistakes, and Mr. White - a dying Mr. White, mind you - made an error which helped the plot along. It isn't the most clever way to achieve that end, but you yourself admitted that you had completely forgotten about it, so it seems it served its purpose of setting up the second act chase sequence.

    I should hasten to add: there are 23 other films in this series, and pretty much all of them offer up just appalling decision-making by multiple characters. You should avoid these films. And most of them aren't busy thinking about how to save their daughter before they kill themselves to escape the pain of being poisoned to death--they just make straight-up dumbass decisions sometimes. If you do watch them, you'll be stunned at how often Bond's opponents elect not to kill him when they have an easy opportunity. It's rather shocking.

    Kidding aside, this isn't whataboutism either. Movies take liberties, and have vocabularies, and it's perfectly alright for dying characters not to think of something in a tense situation when the people watching the film don't think of it either, or not until four years later.

  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    Minion wrote: »
    Still waiting for an explanation for the video camera...
    You're operating in a universe where characters need to have needle perfect precision in their actions. People make mistakes, and Mr. White - a dying Mr. White, mind you - made an error which helped the plot along. It isn't the most clever way to achieve that end, but you yourself admitted that you had completely forgotten about it, so it seems it served its purpose of setting up the second act chase sequence.

    I should hasten to add: there are 23 other films in this series, and pretty much all of them offer up just appalling decision-making by multiple characters. You should avoid these films. And most of them aren't busy thinking about how to save their daughter before they kill themselves to escape the pain of being poisoned to death--they just make straight-up dumbass decisions sometimes. If you do watch them, you'll be stunned at how often Bond's opponents elect not to kill him when they have an easy opportunity. It's rather shocking.

    Kidding aside, this isn't whataboutism either. Movies take liberties, and have vocabularies, and it's perfectly alright for dying characters not to think of something in a tense situation when the people watching the film don't think of it either, or not until four years later.

    But we're not talking about other movies. The subject of this thread is SP. And in my assessment a lot of it makes no sense.

    When the other Bond films come up I will comment accordingly.

    The third act was a last minute rush job which is painfully obvious to see. The PTS and fight on the train were excellent.

  • edited October 2019 Posts: 677
    Kidding aside, this isn't whataboutism either. Movies take liberties, and have vocabularies, and it's perfectly alright for dying characters not to think of something in a tense situation when the people watching the film don't think of it either, or not until four years later.
    If this is your excuse then every single Bond film should get a pass.

    Also, since you brought up Vader being Luke and Leia's father, I guess every retcon made in the history of movies should be given a pass because Star Wars did it?

  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    edited October 2019 Posts: 1,165
    Kidding aside, this isn't whataboutism either. Movies take liberties, and have vocabularies, and it's perfectly alright for dying characters not to think of something in a tense situation when the people watching the film don't think of it either, or not until four years later.
    If this is your excuse then every single Bond film should get a pass.

    Also, since you brought up Vader being Luke and Leia's father, I guess every retcon made in the history of movies should be given a pass because Star Wars did it?
    Well I can't speak for @ProfJoeButcher, but I from my perspective it's all about the context and circumstance. I personally don't consider the Darth Vader thing a retcon, but if we count Star Wars then the reveal didn't contradict anything established previously so it works, while Halloween (for example) presents a continuity error by retconning Dr. Loomis' entirely unambiguous death in Halloween 2. That's less acceptable.

    As for your top point, I get you're using a hyperbole to make a point, but why shouldn't we? Unless the internal logic of the film is glaringly compromised, I don't think film in general deserves be nitpicked, otherwise we're approaching CinemaSins territory.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    Minion wrote: »
    Kidding aside, this isn't whataboutism either. Movies take liberties, and have vocabularies, and it's perfectly alright for dying characters not to think of something in a tense situation when the people watching the film don't think of it either, or not until four years later.
    If this is your excuse then every single Bond film should get a pass.

    Also, since you brought up Vader being Luke and Leia's father, I guess every retcon made in the history of movies should be given a pass because Star Wars did it?
    Well I can't speak for @ProfJoeButcher, but I from my perspective it's all about the context and circumstance. I personally don't consider the Darth Vader thing a retcon, but if we count Star Wars then the reveal didn't contradict anything established previously so it works, while Halloween (for example) presents a continuity error by retconning Dr. Loomis' entirely unambiguous death in Halloween 2. That's less acceptable.

    As for your top point, I get you're using a hyperbole to make a point, but why shouldn't we? Unless the internal logic of the film is glaringly compromised, I don't think film in general deserves be nitpicked, otherwise we're approaching CinemaSins territory.

    Whether the film 'deserves to be nitpicked' is irrelevent. I assume you have actually read the title of this thread?

    You seem to be taking any criticism of the film personally, but remember, these discussions are all done from a fans point of view. I like SP but thats not going to stop me pointing out what i think doesn't make sense in the film. In that respect the makers of these films must do better. The fans paying to see them at least deserve that.

    If and when CR comes up on here i personally won't have much to discuss regarding the script making sense because as it is i think it's a very good and logical one.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    If personal attacks are all you've got at this point, @LeonardPine, then I think our discussion is pretty much over.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    Minion wrote: »
    Well I can't speak for @ProfJoeButcher, but I from my perspective it's all about the context and circumstance. I personally don't consider the Darth Vader thing a retcon

    Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short, is a literary device in which established facts in a fictional work are adjusted, ignored, or contradicted by a subsequently published work which breaks continuity with the former.

    It is by definition, it's not a matter of opinion. Like you said, it is a good example of retcon because it works in the context (while the one from Halloween doesn't), but it's stilla a retcon.

    Personally I never had a problem with SPECTRE revealing that the organization was behind CR and QoS, both movies established that a bigger organization (Quantum) was indeed after those events, so it works in my opinion. I just didn't like Blofeld's bragging about it since he was not present in CR and QoS at all.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    edited October 2019 Posts: 1,165
    You know, you're absolutely right @Walecs. I had forgotten Obi-wan tells Luke that his father was murdered by Darth Vader in the first film, which would make the revelation in ESB by definition a retcon. Thanks for setting me straight. :)
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,985
    Minion wrote: »
    If personal attacks are all you've got at this point, @LeonardPine, then I think our discussion is pretty much over.

    Personal attacks??? I've been perfectly polite in my posts and have enjoyed the discussions regarding SP and its faults. Not sure what i've said could be construed as a personal attack.

    You did seem to be taking the criticism of SP personally but that's just how it's coming across to me.
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    Posts: 2,541
    Walecs wrote: »
    Minion wrote: »
    Well I can't speak for @ProfJoeButcher, but I from my perspective it's all about the context and circumstance. I personally don't consider the Darth Vader thing a retcon

    Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short, is a literary device in which established facts in a fictional work are adjusted, ignored, or contradicted by a subsequently published work which breaks continuity with the former.

    It is by definition, it's not a matter of opinion. Like you said, it is a good example of retcon because it works in the context (while the one from Halloween doesn't), but it's stilla a retcon.

    Personally I never had a problem with SPECTRE revealing that the organization was behind CR and QoS, both movies established that a bigger organization (Quantum) was indeed after those events, so it works in my opinion. I just didn't like Blofeld's bragging about it since he was not present in CR and QoS at all.

    Spot on, this actually bothered me as well, those dialogues were painful to hear.
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