Interbellum 2.0: The middle-class destruction & rise of neo-nationalism and xenophobia in the West

Gustav_Graves

TheWizardOfIce wrote: »

Gustav_Graves wrote: »

History is so damn important to get a perspective on geopolitical developments. And just like in the period 1918-1930 it are -indeed- the 'liberals' who are being blaimed for everything.

But then, let me send a clear wake-up call to all of you then. WE have been part of this so called 'liberal capitalist elite' as much as the actual politicians and company directors. A few examples:

When a bank is offering you a mortgage contract that looks too good to be true, YOU have the power to NOT sign that contract. By stating that you simply don't have the financial assets to really own such an expensive house.

The same goes for the way we are using credit cards and mobile phone contracts. Just like the 'elite', also the consumers themselves need to fingerpoint to themselves first. Do you really believe that if you sign a mobile phone contract, that you own the phone already? NO! It's a capitalist leasing construction, in which the costs of the actual phone are re-calculated and re-distributed throughout the monthly phone costs/fees.

The examples are endless. Look, I have an incredibly high student loan debt that I need to pay back monthly. BUT! It's partially my mistake for God sake. I have been the dumbass to lend too much than I should have. Off course, my government doesn't give a rat's arse about that. But I WAS IN THE DRIVER'S SEAT to actually lower down that loan or to live with my parents to save money.

This is what I mean with self-criticism and self-fingerpointing. We don't do it anymore. Or at least many 'angry' middle-class people who have been part of this financial crisis don't have the guts anymore to realize that they themselves were stupid too. President Kennedy had this wonderful motto that we have forgotten completely, but that in my opinion is one of the best and most social motto's ever: "Ask NOT what your country can do for YOU. Ask yourself what YOU can do for your COUNTRY!"

The more we forget this motto, the more we loose the ability to apply self-criticism, the more our society loses its human side. We then are part of a mess we co-created ourselves.

Utter garbage.

Speak for yourself if you've run up a load of unsustainable debt but the only debt I have is my mortgage and my car which I can afford comfortably.

I play by the 'rules'. I pay my TV licence and car insurance like a mug. I even pay 5p for a plastic bag at the self service tills at Tesco because I am so gormlessly honest.

And where does it get me? Just paying more tax to subsidise those who don't play by the rules.

George Osborne supposed to be a Tory, the party of free enterprise, but after taking 12k stamp duty up the arse from him I'd have done better voting Communist.

I haven't used words like 'utter garbage' so far in this topic. But ask me if I am happy Dutchman, working in Spain, with a wage that's way lower than I can get in Netherlands, and incredible financial debts. I would still answer: Yes.

"Ask NOT what your country can do for YOU. Ask yourself what YOU can do for your COUNTRY!"

A mortgage is a loan. Period. Fact. Everyone in here who thinks that he/she really owns a home if there's a mortgage on it should wash their eyes and ears. Billionaires don't have mortgages. They can buy a home without any neo-liberal financial construction like a 'mortgage'.

I don't 'own' a home. I'm a happy renter. In my situation....renting a house is so much nicer. And especially cheaper in Spain.

chrisisall

DaltonCraig007 wrote: »

What I find ironic is people who blame Trump, Le Pen and company of playing with the fears of the general population, are the same people playing with fear when announcing a global apocalypse if Trump became US president.

When Bush 2 was running for Prez I was saying that he would start a war.
Now I'm saying if Trump gets elected he will start a war.
I mean, what's cooler that killin' folks for no real lasting purpose & going more trillions in debt?
Nothing! If you're Haliburton & co.

RC7

Gustav_Graves wrote: »

TheWizardOfIce wrote: »

Gustav_Graves wrote: »

History is so damn important to get a perspective on geopolitical developments. And just like in the period 1918-1930 it are -indeed- the 'liberals' who are being blaimed for everything.

But then, let me send a clear wake-up call to all of you then. WE have been part of this so called 'liberal capitalist elite' as much as the actual politicians and company directors. A few examples:

When a bank is offering you a mortgage contract that looks too good to be true, YOU have the power to NOT sign that contract. By stating that you simply don't have the financial assets to really own such an expensive house.

The same goes for the way we are using credit cards and mobile phone contracts. Just like the 'elite', also the consumers themselves need to fingerpoint to themselves first. Do you really believe that if you sign a mobile phone contract, that you own the phone already? NO! It's a capitalist leasing construction, in which the costs of the actual phone are re-calculated and re-distributed throughout the monthly phone costs/fees.

The examples are endless. Look, I have an incredibly high student loan debt that I need to pay back monthly. BUT! It's partially my mistake for God sake. I have been the dumbass to lend too much than I should have. Off course, my government doesn't give a rat's arse about that. But I WAS IN THE DRIVER'S SEAT to actually lower down that loan or to live with my parents to save money.

This is what I mean with self-criticism and self-fingerpointing. We don't do it anymore. Or at least many 'angry' middle-class people who have been part of this financial crisis don't have the guts anymore to realize that they themselves were stupid too. President Kennedy had this wonderful motto that we have forgotten completely, but that in my opinion is one of the best and most social motto's ever: "Ask NOT what your country can do for YOU. Ask yourself what YOU can do for your COUNTRY!"

The more we forget this motto, the more we loose the ability to apply self-criticism, the more our society loses its human side. We then are part of a mess we co-created ourselves.

Utter garbage.

Speak for yourself if you've run up a load of unsustainable debt but the only debt I have is my mortgage and my car which I can afford comfortably.

I play by the 'rules'. I pay my TV licence and car insurance like a mug. I even pay 5p for a plastic bag at the self service tills at Tesco because I am so gormlessly honest.

And where does it get me? Just paying more tax to subsidise those who don't play by the rules.

George Osborne supposed to be a Tory, the party of free enterprise, but after taking 12k stamp duty up the arse from him I'd have done better voting Communist.

I haven't used words like 'utter garbage' so far in this topic. But ask me if I am happy Dutchman, working in Spain, with a wage that's way lower than I can get in Netherlands, and incredible financial debts. I would still answer: Yes.

"Ask NOT what your country can do for YOU. Ask yourself what YOU can do for your COUNTRY!"

A mortgage is a loan. Period. Fact. Everyone in here who thinks that he/she really owns a home if there's a mortgage on it should wash their eyes and ears. Billionaires don't have mortgages. They can buy a home without any neo-liberal financial construction like a 'mortgage'.

I don't 'own' a home. I'm a happy renter. In my situation....renting a house is so much nicer. And especially cheaper in Spain.

All this sounds a bit cloud cuckoo land to me. What we do for our country? I can't speak for Wiz, but I pay a fuck tonne of cash back into the system every year. With the rest of my time and money I do the best for 'my family'. I imagine we'd be in a much better place if that was the case across the board, rather than people pumping out kids and expecting everyone else to pay for it.

TheWizardOfIce

RC7 wrote: »

Gustav_Graves wrote: »

TheWizardOfIce wrote: »

Gustav_Graves wrote: »

History is so damn important to get a perspective on geopolitical developments. And just like in the period 1918-1930 it are -indeed- the 'liberals' who are being blaimed for everything.

But then, let me send a clear wake-up call to all of you then. WE have been part of this so called 'liberal capitalist elite' as much as the actual politicians and company directors. A few examples:

When a bank is offering you a mortgage contract that looks too good to be true, YOU have the power to NOT sign that contract. By stating that you simply don't have the financial assets to really own such an expensive house.

The same goes for the way we are using credit cards and mobile phone contracts. Just like the 'elite', also the consumers themselves need to fingerpoint to themselves first. Do you really believe that if you sign a mobile phone contract, that you own the phone already? NO! It's a capitalist leasing construction, in which the costs of the actual phone are re-calculated and re-distributed throughout the monthly phone costs/fees.

The examples are endless. Look, I have an incredibly high student loan debt that I need to pay back monthly. BUT! It's partially my mistake for God sake. I have been the dumbass to lend too much than I should have. Off course, my government doesn't give a rat's arse about that. But I WAS IN THE DRIVER'S SEAT to actually lower down that loan or to live with my parents to save money.

This is what I mean with self-criticism and self-fingerpointing. We don't do it anymore. Or at least many 'angry' middle-class people who have been part of this financial crisis don't have the guts anymore to realize that they themselves were stupid too. President Kennedy had this wonderful motto that we have forgotten completely, but that in my opinion is one of the best and most social motto's ever: "Ask NOT what your country can do for YOU. Ask yourself what YOU can do for your COUNTRY!"

The more we forget this motto, the more we loose the ability to apply self-criticism, the more our society loses its human side. We then are part of a mess we co-created ourselves.

Utter garbage.

Speak for yourself if you've run up a load of unsustainable debt but the only debt I have is my mortgage and my car which I can afford comfortably.

I play by the 'rules'. I pay my TV licence and car insurance like a mug. I even pay 5p for a plastic bag at the self service tills at Tesco because I am so gormlessly honest.

And where does it get me? Just paying more tax to subsidise those who don't play by the rules.

George Osborne supposed to be a Tory, the party of free enterprise, but after taking 12k stamp duty up the arse from him I'd have done better voting Communist.

I haven't used words like 'utter garbage' so far in this topic. But ask me if I am happy Dutchman, working in Spain, with a wage that's way lower than I can get in Netherlands, and incredible financial debts. I would still answer: Yes.

"Ask NOT what your country can do for YOU. Ask yourself what YOU can do for your COUNTRY!"

A mortgage is a loan. Period. Fact. Everyone in here who thinks that he/she really owns a home if there's a mortgage on it should wash their eyes and ears. Billionaires don't have mortgages. They can buy a home without any neo-liberal financial construction like a 'mortgage'.

I don't 'own' a home. I'm a happy renter. In my situation....renting a house is so much nicer. And especially cheaper in Spain.

All this sounds a bit cloud cuckoo land to me. What we do for our country? I can't speak for Wiz, but I pay a fuck tonne of cash back into the system every year. With the rest of my time and money I do the best for 'my family'. I imagine we'd be in a much better place if that was the case across the board, rather than people pumping out kids and expecting everyone else to pay for it.

Very well said Sir.

How about you ask the dole scroungers that we pay for what they are doing for their country?

chrisisall

RC7 wrote: »

I imagine we'd be in a much better place if that was the case across the board, rather than people pumping out kids and expecting everyone else to pay for it.

Please look up some numbers before regurgitating someone else's opinion, would ya dude? Do you have any idea where the national debt comes from? Not from welfare. Over HALF of all spending is on the military. Why not get pissed at people whipping up sweetheart contracts & ordering replacement equipment for stuff that's not broken? Because it's just easy to bend to the will of your owners who TELL you what to get incensed at?
Math is a lost art for peeps these days... 8-|

RC7

chrisisall wrote: »

RC7 wrote: »

I imagine we'd be in a much better place if that was the case across the board, rather than people pumping out kids and expecting everyone else to pay for it.

Please look up some numbers before regurgitating someone else's opinion, would ya dude? Do you have any idea where the national debt comes from? Not from welfare. Over HALF of all spending is on the military. Why not get pissed at people whipping up sweetheart contracts & ordering replacement equipment for stuff that's not broken? Because it's just easy to bend to the will of your owners who TELL you what to get incensed at?
Math is a lost art on peeps these days... 8-|

That's bullshit, mate. I have no control over military spending. What I do have control over is attempting to do the best for those directly around me and avoiding putting pressure on the system. I've never claimed dole money, even when I've been entitled to. Everyone else has that option. Some choose not to take it.

chrisisall

RC7 wrote: »

What I do have control over is attempting to do the best for those directly around me and avoiding putting pressure on the system. I've never claimed dole money, even when I've been entitled to. Everyone else has that option. Some choose not to take it.

No, THAT'S bullshit. This 'pressure' you're avoiding putting on the system is a fantasy you've bought into because they TELL you to believe it. The 'pressure' on the system is the Military Industrial Complex- that's why Cheney's company made nearly 400 BILLION off the Iraq war. Bet you didn't know that it was SOP for military vehicles to be driven off the road for a flat tire, then blown up after the new one got delivered, did you? The cow gets milked by corporations and somehow that's no problem for peeps like you, but when a few drops find their way to individuals (arguably) doing the same thing, somehow that tiny percentage is the cause of all our suffering. And you'll STILL find a way to tell me you're right on this, won't you? The math is on my side, but don't let messy FACTS get in the way of your long-indoctrinated beliefs, ya?

TheWizardOfIce

chrisisall wrote: »

RC7 wrote: »

What I do have control over is attempting to do the best for those directly around me and avoiding putting pressure on the system. I've never claimed dole money, even when I've been entitled to. Everyone else has that option. Some choose not to take it.

No, THAT'S bullshit. This 'pressure' you're avoiding putting on the system is a fantasy you've bought into because they TELL you to believe it. The 'pressure' on the system is the Military Industrial Complex- that's why Cheney's company made nearly 400 BILLION off the Iraq war. Bet you didn't know that it was SOP for military vehicles to be driven off the road for a flat tire, then blown up after the new one got delivered, did you? The cow gets milked by corporations and somehow that's no problem for peeps like you, but when a few drops find their way to individuals (arguably) doing the same thing, somehow that tiny percentage is the cause of all our suffering. And you'll STILL find a way to tell me you're right on this, won't you? The math is on my side, but don't let messy FACTS get in the way of your long-indoctrinated beliefs, ya?

So what are you doing to bring Cheney and his cronies down? Refusing to pay your taxes? Planning an armed assault on congress?

chrisisall

TheWizardOfIce wrote: »

So what are you doing to bring Cheney and his cronies down? Refusing to pay your taxes? Planning an armed assault on congress?

Voting as correctly as I can. Signing petitions. Spreading the truth of the numbers wherever possible.

And you?
:))

RC7

chrisisall wrote: »

RC7 wrote: »

What I do have control over is attempting to do the best for those directly around me and avoiding putting pressure on the system. I've never claimed dole money, even when I've been entitled to. Everyone else has that option. Some choose not to take it.

No, THAT'S bullshit. This 'pressure' you're avoiding putting on the system is a fantasy you've bought into because they TELL you to believe it. The 'pressure' on the system is the Military Industrial Complex- that's why Cheney's company made nearly 400 BILLION off the Iraq war. Bet you didn't know that it was SOP for military vehicles to be driven off the road for a flat tire, then blown up after the new one got delivered, did you? The cow gets milked by corporations and somehow that's no problem for peeps like you, but when a few drops find their way to individuals (arguably) doing the same thing, somehow that tiny percentage is the cause of all our suffering. And you'll STILL find a way to tell me you're right on this, won't you? The math is on my side, but don't let messy FACTS get in the way of your long-indoctrinated beliefs, ya?

It's not a fantasy, it's me 'doing something for my country' as the initial post enquiried. I cannot do anything about spending on arms in my position, but what I can do is pay my way, educate my children, give them a decent set of values and put something back into society (incidentally I pay into 5 charities a month). If people think that putting the economy under pressure by pumping out kids and letting them roam free as pseudo-activists, go ahead. We can only do what we can do. We either educate and inform, or we whine, moan and postulate.

TheWizardOfIce

chrisisall wrote: »

TheWizardOfIce wrote: »

So what are you doing to bring Cheney and his cronies down? Refusing to pay your taxes? Planning an armed assault on congress?

Voting as correctly as I can. Signing petitions. Spreading the truth of the numbers wherever possible.

And you?
:))

So basically nothing. Just like the rest of us. So ease up on the Che Guevara act.

If you pay your taxes into the system and obey the law then you're as complicit as anyone else. Refuse to pay and go to prison if you find what is done in your name so disgusting.

Gustav_Graves

@RC7?



:P

RC7

Gustav_Graves wrote: »

@RC7?



:P

What's your point?

chrisisall

TheWizardOfIce wrote: »

chrisisall wrote: »

TheWizardOfIce wrote: »

So what are you doing to bring Cheney and his cronies down? Refusing to pay your taxes? Planning an armed assault on congress?

Voting as correctly as I can. Signing petitions. Spreading the truth of the numbers wherever possible.

And you?
:))

So basically nothing. Just like the rest of us. So ease up on the Che Guevara act.

If you pay your taxes into the system and obey the law then you're as complicit as anyone else. Refuse to pay and go to prison if you find what is done in your name so disgusting.

Wiz, you've opened my eyes. Since I AM basically doing nothing, I might as well join those that would blame the weakest in our society that basically do the smallest relative financial damage because it makes me FEEL BETTER than going on about the big guys I have no chance of effectively fighting against. BTW, that's kind of the definition of a BULLY in case you weren't aware of it.
No, I like your second idea better. My jailing would be the symbol of my protest, and my family could enjoy the poverty that would ensue, but then- they'd become the burden on society RC7 warned us against! And ME TOO since y'all'd be PAYING for my incarceration-!!!

I'll stick to my own admittedly limited methods, thanks. ;)

RC7

chrisisall wrote: »

TheWizardOfIce wrote: »

chrisisall wrote: »

TheWizardOfIce wrote: »

So what are you doing to bring Cheney and his cronies down? Refusing to pay your taxes? Planning an armed assault on congress?

Voting as correctly as I can. Signing petitions. Spreading the truth of the numbers wherever possible.

And you?
:))

So basically nothing. Just like the rest of us. So ease up on the Che Guevara act.

If you pay your taxes into the system and obey the law then you're as complicit as anyone else. Refuse to pay and go to prison if you find what is done in your name so disgusting.

Wiz, you've opened my eyes. Since I AM basically doing nothing, I might as well join those that would blame the weakest in our society that basically do the smallest relative financial damage because it makes me FEEL BETTER than going on about the big guys I have no chance of effectively fighting against. BTW, that's kind of the definition of a BULLY in case you weren't aware of it.
No, I like your second idea better. My jailing would be the symbol of my protest, and my family could enjoy the poverty that would ensue, but then- they'd become the burden on society RC7 warned us against! And ME TOO since y'all'd be PAYING for my incarceration-!!!

I'll stick to my own admittedly limited methods, thanks. ;)

Stop smoking weed.

chrisisall

RC7 wrote: »

Stop smoking weed.

Non-sequiter; your facts are uncoordinated.

Scaramanga12

This thread has no thesis that I can make out. It's just some garbled obfuscatory left wing BS.

chrisisall

Scaramanga12 wrote: »

This thread has no thesis that I can make out. It's just some garbled obfuscatory left wing BS.

I'm sorry you feel yourself obfuscated.

RC7

chrisisall wrote: »

RC7 wrote: »

Stop smoking weed.

Non-sequiter; your facts are uncoordinated.

I'm sorry Dave, I'm afarid i cant do that.

chrisisall

Murdock

I honestly don't see much good coming from this thread. It's already derailing at a fast pace and tempers are on the rise. I hated to say it but it would probably be best if this was closed...

chrisisall

Murdock wrote: »

I honestly don't see much good coming from this thread. It's already derailing at a fast pace and tempers are on the rise. I hated to say it but it would probably be best if this was closed...

I do not disagree.

RC7

chrisisall wrote: »

Murdock wrote: »

I honestly don't see much good coming from this thread. It's already derailing at a fast pace and tempers are on the rise. I hated to say it but it would probably be best if this was closed...

I do not disagree.

You stoked the fire. The rest was opinion until you started using the dreaded CAPS. We all know happens when the CAPS come out..

bondjames

Middle class destruction is an inevitable consequence of unbridled capitalism combined with globalization. There's nothing surprising about this if one looks at the natural sequence of things. It is exactly as expected. When it becomes all about 'money' then that's what it will be all about.

In capitalism there are always winners and losers. The West used to play while the others were asleep. So they won. The few won at the expense of the many.

The others are now awake and playing the capitalist game far more efficiently and effectively, and by their own rules - not those of the West. So a relative decline in the West's GDP is inevitable.

The question then becomes, how is that relative decline managed? Is it done in a controlled fashion, with redistributive policies to ease the pain? Or is a free for all (as it has been to date) where the little guy gets more of the shaft as the pie shrinks?

A reset is required and it will likely come at some point through violent means. Either from within the society, or due to an external threat.

chrisisall

bondjames wrote: »

Middle class destruction is an inevitable consequence of unbridled capitalism combined with globalization. There's nothing surprising about this if one looks at the natural sequence of things. It is exactly as expected. When it becomes all about 'money' then that's what it will be all about.

In capitalism there are always winners and losers. The West used to play while the others were asleep. So they won. The few won at the expense of the many.

The others are now awake and playing the capitalist game far more efficiently and effectively, and by their own rules - not those of the West. So a relative decline in the West's GDP is inevitable.

The question then becomes, how is that relative decline managed? Is it done in a controlled fashion, with redistributive policies to ease the pain? Or is a free for all (as it has been to date) where the little guy gets more of the shaft as the pie shrinks?

A reset is required and it will likely come at some point through violent means. Either from within the society, or due to an external threat.

Well said sir, and without dreaded CAPS, no less (GDP doesn't count)!
=D>