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The June 2016 UK Referendum on EU Membership: [UPDATE] What kind of BREXIT do YOU want?

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  • SpectreNumberTwoSpectreNumberTwo
    Posts: 389
    I think it's quite sad that a lot of Britains thinks we're not good enough to go it alone, IMHO there will be a period of instabilty world wide with BREXIT but then pragmatism will win out & guess what? life will go on & England if not all of Britain will be better off in the long term.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited June 2016 Posts: 9,117
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    Mendes4Lyfe wrote: »
    A US of Europe is seriously one of the worst outcomes. How anyone can be in favour of that is beyond me.

    I think it really should be the idealism of humanity really. Just watch Star Trek, how weird that example may sound. I would love to give up my Dutch passport for a United States Of Europe passport.

    In a few hundred years, this will be the inevitable outcome: Humanity being more organized into one big United Federation Of Earth. And if that may sound weird? Several centuries ago there WAS no Netherlands. Around 1200 AD the plains that are now called Netherlands were fully occupied by the Batavia, poor nomads whose only means of surviving were fishing and hunting. Netherlands was one big disorganized mudpool. Nothing more.

    Now it is 2016. Netherlands is at least for now a prosperous nation. But I call upon all Dutchies: Time to slowly dissolve and become part of a better organized, more peaceful and more democratic unity: The United States Of Europe. It would be my ultimate dream, and it would be the best counterweight to other insanely large landmasses, like China, USA and Russia.

    Because make no mistake. The era of small nations is over. Everyone who thinks his small European nation can survive and still bring about prosperity and welfare in the long-term, is a fool. If the USA doesn't dictate policies in Europe, it will be China or Russia. But NOT the UK or Netherlands.

    Wake up. Think of the true idealism of mankind: The United States Of Europe!

    Sounds like a friggin' nightmare!

    It sounds worse than that. An anodyne, soulless existence with us all susbsusiting in one big homogenous, cultural and bureaucratic morass. Welcome to Euroblivion.
    SpectreNumberTwo wrote: »
    life will go on & England if not all of Britain will be better off in the long term.

    Good enough for me.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    edited June 2016 Posts: 7,981
    GBF wrote: »
    Sorry but there is no milk quota anymore. The EU abandonened it last year since they wanted to increase the exports to countries like Russia and China. However, due to the global crisis and the Russia's import stop for European food products, there is an over supply in Europe that leads to extremely low prices. In Germany, the milf farmers more and more give up their business. But this has nothing to do with milk quota but with the sinking milk price.

    And what about the bureaucrats's argument? The EU legislation process works not that different from the national legislative procedure. Ok it is a bit more complicated but that does not mean it is less democratic. Each EU legislation is proposed by the Commission which consists of 28 commissioners (one from each countries). The commission can only make a proposal, they have however no real legislative power. This is in the hands of the EU Parliament and the Council of ministers. The EU parliament is elected by the people from all member states (OK small countries are a bit advanced here but still the MdEP are elcted democratically). The Council of ministers consists of the repective ministers of each countries (so each democtratically elected government is involved here, and there can never be a legislation against the majority of EU citizens, nor against the majority of EU countries).

    And what at all is a bureaucrat? Besides the elected politicans you of course have thousands of people who work on all specific topics in the several Directorate-Generals. They are comparable to the employees in the ministrys of the Member States. They are experts on specific topics. Again they usually come from all parts of the EU and they have no legislative power but support the commissioners.

    And that is exactly the problem. The EU Commission should've been good enough. Then everyone would know exactly what was going on and we'd actually know what we were voting for. Now, however, they made a new government on top of 28 other governments. That is bureaucracy to the max. It also means detailed legislation overruling 28 legislations, so it's doubling the work. And the EU legislation can't properly adjust to situations in all member states, without becoming increadably expanded. And it shouldn't have to, because we don't need al that legislation. We already had it, remember?
    Sure there are fields in which we need good coordination: Europol is a good and useful institute i.e.
    But the basic of the matter is that we have 28 different cultures and languages, with people with historic completely different mindsets, trying to find a common denominator (positive approach) or pushing through their own people's interests.

    And why do we want to be this 'power block'. Why can't small countries survive? Singapore is doing utterly fine, as is Switserland. The latter is the richest country in the world, European AND not an EU member state. So explain again why we need to be part of the EU again to prosper? The economic argument seems rather invalid there.

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    The EU, at times with it bureaucrats seems more like an organisation from Stalin's
    Russia. With everthing filed in triplicate,. Except expenses etc, which don't seem to
    Have to be accounted for. As I think several MEP's have asked to see the actual
    Running costs of the organisation, and as yet ( years waiting) Nothing. ;)
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    Thunderpussy wrote: »
    The EU, at times with it bureaucrats seems more like an organisation from Stalin's
    Russia. With everthing filed in triplicate,. Except expenses etc, which don't seem to
    Have to be accounted for. As I think several MEP's have asked to see the actual
    Running costs of the organisation, and as yet ( years waiting) Nothing. ;)

    The very comparison is an insult to intellect. Yes, I'm known for making historical comparisons. But at least I place them in context, try to be nuanced or lift out only a few aspects of the EU that are comparable to, let's say, some bureaucrats from National governments.

    But your comparison, without any context, is just 'there' like the shouting of Donald Trump. It's unnoticed. It's the populism of now.

    Let me be clear here: Brussels doesn't send millions of Europeans to the Gulach Archipelago to let them rot and die there. You disqualify yourself with such remarks.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited June 2016 Posts: 15,690
    Why does @Thunderpussy disqualify himself with Staline/USSR remarks, but the Nazi/Hitler remarks from earlier in this thread were ok?
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    You don't really do Humour do you @Gustav_Graves #-o
    Probably one of the differences with the British and the EU. ;)
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I think it's must be wrong to compare the EU to ..... well anything
    @DaltonCraig007. As it's just too good to be compared to anything
    Not gifted to us by God Himself. :D
    And especially for @Gustav_Graves that is a joke, it is absurd hence humourous. ;)
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,690
    @Thunderpussy, our dear Gustav has a fixation on Nazi's, as he mentions them quite often in political threads. ;)
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    edited June 2016 Posts: 11,119
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    Why does @Thunderpussy disqualify himself with Staline/USSR remarks, but the Nazi/Hitler remarks from earlier in this thread were ok?

    I shall tell you. I take a prime example from how democracy worked in the 1930's. Because let's face it, there was democracy in those days. And the comparison was aimed at how democracy is perceived these days. They are only a means to ventilate anger and hate these days, not to correct society in a progressive, long-term manner. Or at least not in a way that fully addresses every disadvantage of every voting option in a nuanced, objective and pragmatic way. In that context, I find it entirely valid to make such a comparison.

    Your comparison is just "there". How do you know how the Soviet Politburo was working under Stalin? The Politburo was entirely helped by the, then, deadly KGB. And by no means these members of the Politburo were democratically elected. European 'Bureaucrats' however, have been elected by the UK people as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_2014_(United_Kingdom) .

    And in case you don't know, even the UKIP members in the European Parliament are receiving a monthly paycheck from the EU. I haven't heard them vigorously reject any of the EU-MEP's salaries and pensions:
    Salary of MEPs

    MEPs, in general, receive the same salary under the single statute which came into effect in July 2009.

    The monthly pre-tax salary of MEPs under the single statute is €8,213.02 as of 1.7.2015. The salary comes from Parliament's budget and is subject to an EU tax and insurance contributions, after which the salary is €6,400.04. Member States may also subject the salary to national taxes. The basic salary is set at 38.5% of the basic salary of a judge at the European Court of Justice.

    There are a few exceptions: MEPs who held a mandate in Parliament before the 2009 elections could opt to keep the previous national system for salary, transitional allowance and pensions.

    Pensions

    Under the statute, former Members are entitled to an old-age pension from the age of 63. The pension equals 3.5% of the salary for each full year’s exercise of a mandate but not more than 70% in total. The cost of these pensions is met from the European Union budget.

    An additional pension scheme, introduced for MEPs in 1989, was closed to new members from July 2009 and is being phased out.

    You know, I can understand that an establishment, pro-European MEP doesn't mention his/her salary. But from any of the anti-European, populist MEP's, Nigel Farage included, I find it hypocrite that they don't mention that. It's calling the kettle black. And it's actually a prime example of how men like Nigel Farage are actually bureaucrats themselves.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,690
    You find it valid, doesn't mean that 1) it's factually true or 2) everyone must agree with you.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    edited June 2016 Posts: 11,119
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    You find it valid, doesn't mean that 1) it's factually true or 2) everyone must agree with you.

    Ooowh, it's not about bearing some 'Truth Torch' for me. Not at all. But your 1st point is valid though. I actually USE facts, historical facts. Alas, they keep being disqualified in a way that frightens me.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    My only point about the bureaucrats, comes from the likes of an old film by
    Billy Wilder. Where to get a train ticket, he kept having to go to a different window
    To get a stamp. The joke being it was the same official at each window. :))
    Perhaps the fear of the Nazi's is a European thing, as we never had much time
    For them in the UK ( as we've proven Twice) ;)
    I can easily understand the fear of a return but the right wing parties are already
    gaining support in Europe ( nothing to do with us in Britain) where the likes of
    The British National party have lost support.
    I respect intelligence of the British people ( I exclude myself on the Intelligence
    part ) to do what's right.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 7,981
    @GustavGraves You're leaving out quite a bit when it comes to MEP's salaries. For instance: with normal people, they pay their pension from their gronn income. MEP's don't, the EU Parlement pays it in full. So net they earn another 3,7% the rest of the EU don't. And then there's travel expenses etc. they can claim. You might think that's fair, but where normal people themselves have to pay for things like dinner and housing, MEP's get it for free...
    MEPs also get a daily subsistence allowance - now 304 euros - for attendance at parliamentary sessions. It is intended to cover things like hotel bills and meals.

    These, to be clear, are sessions in Brussels or Strassbourg. Averyone else is supposed to actually move to a decent distance of their work, MEP's get hotel money....

  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    CommanderRoss wrote: »
    @GustavGraves You're leaving out quite a bit when it comes to MEP's salaries. For instance: with normal people, they pay their pension from their gronn income. MEP's don't, the EU Parlement pays it in full. So net they earn another 3,7% the rest of the EU don't. And then there's travel expenses etc. they can claim. You might think that's fair, but where normal people themselves have to pay for things like dinner and housing, MEP's get it for free...
    MEPs also get a daily subsistence allowance - now 304 euros - for attendance at parliamentary sessions. It is intended to cover things like hotel bills and meals.

    These, to be clear, are sessions in Brussels or Strassbourg. Averyone else is supposed to actually move to a decent distance of their work, MEP's get hotel money....

    Then demand Nigel Forage to get rid of all these EU-benefits. Makes him an MEP without receiving a single penny. Nut that's the inevitable result.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited June 2016 Posts: 9,117
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    Thunderpussy wrote: »
    The EU, at times with it bureaucrats seems more like an organisation from Stalin's
    Russia. With everthing filed in triplicate,. Except expenses etc, which don't seem to
    Have to be accounted for. As I think several MEP's have asked to see the actual
    Running costs of the organisation, and as yet ( years waiting) Nothing. ;)

    The very comparison is an insult to intellect. Yes, I'm known for making historical comparisons. But at least I place them in context, try to be nuanced or lift out only a few aspects of the EU that are comparable to, let's say, some bureaucrats from National governments.

    But your comparison, without any context, is just 'there' like the shouting of Donald Trump. It's unnoticed. It's the populism of now.

    Let me be clear here: Brussels doesn't send millions of Europeans to the Gulach Archipelago to let them rot and die there. You disqualify yourself with such remarks.

    Wasn't @Thunderpussy just making an quip about the amount of bureaucracy which reaches similar levels of absurdity in both the Soviet Union and the EU? Why so serious Gustav?

    This is why we can ever be compatible with the EU because foreigners just can't understand our most defining character trait:- ripping the piss out of everyone and everything.

    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    Why does @Thunderpussy disqualify himself with Staline/USSR remarks, but the Nazi/Hitler remarks from earlier in this thread were ok?

    I shall tell you. I take a prime example from how democracy worked in the 1930's. Because let's face it, there was democracy in those days. And the comparison was aimed at how democracy is perceived these days. They are only a means to ventilate anger and hate these days, not to correct society in a progressive, long-term manner. Or at least not in a way that fully addresses every disadvantage of every voting option in a nuanced, objective and pragmatic way. In that context, I find it entirely valid to make such a comparison.

    Your comparison is just "there". How do you know how the Soviet Politburo was working under Stalin? The Politburo was entirely helped by the, then, deadly KGB. And by no means these members of the Politburo were democratically elected. European 'Bureaucrats' however, have been elected by the UK people as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_2014_(United_Kingdom) .

    And in case you don't know, even the UKIP members in the European Parliament are receiving a monthly paycheck from the EU. I haven't heard them vigorously reject any of the EU-MEP's salaries and pensions:
    Salary of MEPs

    MEPs, in general, receive the same salary under the single statute which came into effect in July 2009.

    The monthly pre-tax salary of MEPs under the single statute is €8,213.02 as of 1.7.2015. The salary comes from Parliament's budget and is subject to an EU tax and insurance contributions, after which the salary is €6,400.04. Member States may also subject the salary to national taxes. The basic salary is set at 38.5% of the basic salary of a judge at the European Court of Justice.

    There are a few exceptions: MEPs who held a mandate in Parliament before the 2009 elections could opt to keep the previous national system for salary, transitional allowance and pensions.

    Pensions

    Under the statute, former Members are entitled to an old-age pension from the age of 63. The pension equals 3.5% of the salary for each full year’s exercise of a mandate but not more than 70% in total. The cost of these pensions is met from the European Union budget.

    An additional pension scheme, introduced for MEPs in 1989, was closed to new members from July 2009 and is being phased out.

    You know, I can understand that an establishment, pro-European MEP doesn't mention his/her salary. But from any of the anti-European, populist MEP's, Nigel Farage included, I find it hypocrite that they don't mention that. It's calling the kettle black. And it's actually a prime example of how men like Nigel Farage are actually bureaucrats themselves.

    I note you fail to list all the rules for expenses they can claim just for turning up and doing their f**king jobs.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Explain the difference between populism and democracy. I suspect it is a PC thing.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,690
    @Thunderfinger I picture you making Nicolas Cage facial expressions when reading your posts.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    @Thunderfinger I picture you making Nicolas Cage facial expressions when reading your posts.

    I picture you making..huh! Roger MOORE! facial expressions! Hmmm, yeahh!!!
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,690
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    DaltonCraig007 wrote: »
    @Thunderfinger I picture you making Nicolas Cage facial expressions when reading your posts.

    I picture you making..huh! Roger MOORE! facial expressions! Hmmm, yeahh!!!

    Don't mock Nic Cage, one of my favorite actors! ;)
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I Was reading the other day, that America, Mexico and Canada have a trade
    Agreement. With plans for a joint currency the "Americo" ? , Would any one
    Know if this is true, or more rumour and bull.
    ( The currency is in the future. Not right away )
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    I shall be honest to all of you dear Brits. Doesn't mind of you are a 'Bremain' or a 'Brexit' enthusiast. But I am...really fearful for the outcome of the Brexit referendum. I am...astonished how many people nowadays think so lightly about referendums that are about such issues, that in essence are way more complex. It really makes me feel depressed to realize what could happen if a Brexit becomes reality :-S . People make jokes about it, moch me, or moch others. But in the end this referendum, at least to me, will have the same historical significance of events like 9/11, the 2008 banking crisis and the current immigrant crisis. Yes, people mock me about it. Sometimes call me a fear mongering weirdo.

    But.....can I please....be afraid for this? I'm now emotional about it. And with my dearest heart I beg my fellow UK citizens...to please remain in the EU. Please, let's not destroy a project that gave us so much peace and prosperity. And I know the EU-project has serious problems though. I know it. I even detest EU-politicians that have a lack of empathy and are not able to connect with the ordinary people. But I really believe, with all the knowledge that I have gathered, and that I tried to interpret in a good way, that leaving the EU is not going to help the UK in the long-term, it is not going to help The Netherlands, it is not going to help prosperity and welfare in the long-term. We need to drastically reform the EU from the inside out....and not destroy everything by simply saying goodbye to the EU....and all your other fellow EU-member states.

    Please :(
  • CatchingBulletsCatchingBullets facebook.com/catchingbullets
    Posts: 292
    If only life was actually a Roger Moore Bond film....

    https://www.facebook.com/catchingbullets/photos/a.413377045359317.97372.407779922585696/1213687438661603/?type=3&theater


  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    =)) brilliant.
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,602
    I have read in many threads that the EU has given us peace but, when I request causal evidence, I have received nothing. Not a jot. It's wish thinking.
  • Gustav_GravesGustav_Graves
    Posts: 11,119
    patb wrote: »
    I have read in many threads that the EU has given us peace but, when I request causal evidence, I have received nothing. Not a jot. It's wish thinking.

    That's because you never experienced World War II. It's quite a shame that you don't realize that yourself.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The EU meddling in Ukraine didn t exactly bring peace.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 7,981
    Gustav_Graves wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    I have read in many threads that the EU has given us peace but, when I request causal evidence, I have received nothing. Not a jot. It's wish thinking.

    That's because you never experienced World War II. It's quite a shame that you don't realize that yourself.

    That's a rather emotional statement and utterly untrue @Gustav. The Brits never experienced occupation. But you owe your freedom to them, because of their involvement. Ever wondered why london looks the way it does?



  • SpectreNumberTwoSpectreNumberTwo
    Posts: 389
    Anyone who says peace is due to the EU, isn't playing with a full deck.
    WW III never happened because of NATO & The Warsaw Pact, the atomic/nuclear deterant if you like, every guy who ever had his finger on the so called button knew it was MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) to attack another nation within those areas so we had different wars, small guerilla wars, like Korea, Borneo, Vietnam, even Afganistan.
    But it certainly has bugger all to do with the EU.
  • DCisaredDCisared Liverpool
    Posts: 1,329
    IN

    Becuase my city was on its arse before EU funding and would again be left to rot if we vote out.
    The tories and London being left to do as they please is a terrifying prospect.
This discussion has been closed.