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In time, will SP be more or less appreciated?

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  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,086
    I think the film will actually go down in appreciation. SPECTRE is longer and more ponderous than the other Craig films, with even less to say. When I first left the cinema after watching this film I was overjoyed! I felt like they had finally reined in the Craig tropes to a place where the standard formula no longer felt foreign. I got chills when I felt, for the first time in a long time, that they were making a concerted effort to be lighthearted again. It was wonderful. However, since getting the film on Blu ray, rewatching it and being able to make comparisons to the rest of the franchise, my opinion has changed. Now, I can't think of more than 5 or 6 Bond films that this matches up favourably against. It may have the funny bits, some of the iconic lines and so forth, but underneath its still a Craig film. That's my problem with it.

    It actually reminds me most of Die Another Day in terms of frustration. We all wanted them to take the set up to that film (Bond being captured and tortured) and run with it, but instead they pull it back to the standard Brosnan fare. Well, here it's the same thing. We are given some humourous scenes, a nice chase, but when push comes to shove its back to the standard Craig stuff. This character has a history with this character, this character can't trust this character etc. The scene where Madeline falls asleep on the bed drunk is one of the worst in Bond history. I think we just have to face the fact that we are never going to get the standard formula just updated to the modern era until there is a new actor playing Bond.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,978
    jetsetwilly wrote: »
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Wasn't it MGW who said once; "We always set out to make a new FRWL, but we always end up with a new Thunderball".

    Its easier said than done...

    True but I'll tell you how you don't do it. You don't have invisible cars, CGI atrocities or piss all over the legacy of Bond's nemesis. Get those basics right and you've half a chance so I've got little sympathy for those who say 'Its not EON's fault. It's not as easy as you think.'

    It isn't easy to make a great Bond film but it is considerably easier not to make a terrible one if you just use some common sense.

    The one glaringly obvious thing for me here is Fleming. Whenever the source material is tapped into, with whole scenes and characters adapted into a script, the film usually elevates itself to a higher level. And anyone who has read all the books knows there are still tons of Fleming material left untapped (whole novels even).

    Yet instead, the direction from EON to P&W is for them to try and come up with original material, but to also try and mimic how Fleming would write. The results have more often than not been disastrous.

    This ain't rocket science, yet Babs and co. have made it so. Just do what Cubby ordered Maibaum to do for many of the films - adapt whatever is still there and unused in the Fleming novels.

    Agreed! FYEO-LTK are all good examples of using actual Fleming. In each, the Fleming is the best part. I don't know why they jettisoned this idea after LTK, although I suppose they did use MR for GE and DAD.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    edited June 2017 Posts: 2,252
    Mendes4Lyfe wrote: »
    I think the film will actually go down in appreciation. SPECTRE is longer and more ponderous than the other Craig films, with even less to say. When I first left the cinema after watching this film I was overjoyed! I felt like they had finally reined in the Craig tropes to a place where the standard formula no longer felt foreign. I got chills when I felt, for the first time in a long time, that they were making a concerted effort to be lighthearted again. It was wonderful. However, since getting the film on Blu ray, rewatching it and being able to make comparisons to the rest of the franchise, my opinion has changed. Now, I can't think of more than 5 or 6 Bond films that this matches up favourably against. It may have the funny bits, some of the iconic lines and so forth, but underneath its still a Craig film. That's my problem with it.

    It actually reminds me most of Die Another Day in terms of frustration. We all wanted them to take the set up to that film (Bond being captured and tortured) and run with it, but instead they pull it back to the standard Brosnan fare. Well, here it's the same thing. We are given some humourous scenes, a nice chase, but when push comes to shove its back to the standard Craig stuff. This character has a history with this character, this character can't trust this character etc. The scene where Madeline falls asleep on the bed drunk is one of the worst in Bond history. I think we just have to face the fact that we are never going to get the standard formula just updated to the modern era until there is a new actor playing Bond.

    Frustration is a good way to describe it. I really liked the return to formula ( q scene, even the subtle humour) but it fails on mainly the plot and score. And also unnecessarily mess up so many things - gun barrel, cartoony helicopter fight, Bond becomes Superman after the excellent torture scene. It's almost a mirror image of dad (Skyfall as well - suddenly you've become useful again, re evaluation, someone from Bond past resurfaces)
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,086
    w2bond wrote: »
    Mendes4Lyfe wrote: »
    I think the film will actually go down in appreciation. SPECTRE is longer and more ponderous than the other Craig films, with even less to say. When I first left the cinema after watching this film I was overjoyed! I felt like they had finally reined in the Craig tropes to a place where the standard formula no longer felt foreign. I got chills when I felt, for the first time in a long time, that they were making a concerted effort to be lighthearted again. It was wonderful. However, since getting the film on Blu ray, rewatching it and being able to make comparisons to the rest of the franchise, my opinion has changed. Now, I can't think of more than 5 or 6 Bond films that this matches up favourably against. It may have the funny bits, some of the iconic lines and so forth, but underneath its still a Craig film. That's my problem with it.

    It actually reminds me most of Die Another Day in terms of frustration. We all wanted them to take the set up to that film (Bond being captured and tortured) and run with it, but instead they pull it back to the standard Brosnan fare. Well, here it's the same thing. We are given some humourous scenes, a nice chase, but when push comes to shove its back to the standard Craig stuff. This character has a history with this character, this character can't trust this character etc. The scene where Madeline falls asleep on the bed drunk is one of the worst in Bond history. I think we just have to face the fact that we are never going to get the standard formula just updated to the modern era until there is a new actor playing Bond.

    Frustration is a good way to describe it. I really liked the return to formula ( q scene, even the subtle humour) but it fails on mainly the plot and score. And also unnecessarily mess up so many things - gun barrel, cartoony helicopter fight, Bond becomes Superman after the excellent torture scene. It's almost a mirror image of dad (Skyfall as well - suddenly you've become useful again, re evaluation, someone from Bond past resurfaces)

    It's like they remade Skyfall, except the villain is after Bond not M, and instead of the family home at the end its the old office building.
  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    Posts: 6,844
    Mendes4Lyfe wrote: »
    w2bond wrote: »
    Mendes4Lyfe wrote: »
    I think the film will actually go down in appreciation. SPECTRE is longer and more ponderous than the other Craig films, with even less to say. When I first left the cinema after watching this film I was overjoyed! I felt like they had finally reined in the Craig tropes to a place where the standard formula no longer felt foreign. I got chills when I felt, for the first time in a long time, that they were making a concerted effort to be lighthearted again. It was wonderful. However, since getting the film on Blu ray, rewatching it and being able to make comparisons to the rest of the franchise, my opinion has changed. Now, I can't think of more than 5 or 6 Bond films that this matches up favourably against. It may have the funny bits, some of the iconic lines and so forth, but underneath its still a Craig film. That's my problem with it.

    It actually reminds me most of Die Another Day in terms of frustration. We all wanted them to take the set up to that film (Bond being captured and tortured) and run with it, but instead they pull it back to the standard Brosnan fare. Well, here it's the same thing. We are given some humourous scenes, a nice chase, but when push comes to shove its back to the standard Craig stuff. This character has a history with this character, this character can't trust this character etc. The scene where Madeline falls asleep on the bed drunk is one of the worst in Bond history. I think we just have to face the fact that we are never going to get the standard formula just updated to the modern era until there is a new actor playing Bond.

    Frustration is a good way to describe it. I really liked the return to formula ( q scene, even the subtle humour) but it fails on mainly the plot and score. And also unnecessarily mess up so many things - gun barrel, cartoony helicopter fight, Bond becomes Superman after the excellent torture scene. It's almost a mirror image of dad (Skyfall as well - suddenly you've become useful again, re evaluation, someone from Bond past resurfaces)

    It's like they remade Skyfall, except the villain is after Bond not M, and instead of the family home at the end its the old office building.

    I'll reiterate what I've said before: the smartest person involved with Spectre (apart from Ralph Fiennes) is Roger Deakins, who turned the project down because he believed he'd only be repeating himself.
  • Tuck91Tuck91
    Posts: 1,680
    I said from the start right down to the soundtrack & cues its identical to Skyfall. Everyone kept saying how SP was radically different.
  • octofingeroctofinger
    Posts: 787
    I think one thing that SP has going for it, in the long run, is that it's well made. Great cinematography (again, after SF), locations, costumes, etc. I think that it will always look good on screen.

    There's always a chance that 20 years from now popular tastes around narrative/character have changed and the story is re-appraised. That might redeem some of the part of the movie that I find most frustrating.

    But at the very least, I think odds are good that it will always be appreciated as a good looking Bond movie.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,330
    As I said early on, Spectre is the modern day Octopussy. It's got some flaws sure but if you see it for what it is and accept the flaws you can enjoy it.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Spectre has three flaws.

    1-A storyline that tells too quickly, basically a film that compresses two into one, leading to untold explanations and underwritten characters.
    2-Oberhauser being Blofeld being Bond's "foster brother".
    3-The London Finale done MI5/Spooks style.

    Otherwise, I like the film and don't demonize it as much as the other members do.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,330
    For me it only has two flaws.

    The Writing is On the Wall and Newman's score.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Yes, I'll add those to the list, too.
  • GetafixGetafix
    edited June 2017 Posts: 11,425
    SP will be seen as a slightly plodding mid ranker IMO. The Brofeld stuff will always taint it tho.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    That's true. For the general public it is.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 7,969
    After seeing FYEO in the cinema again, and how the general public reacted to that, I think SP will do just fine in the future. It's a Bond-film and many have at least a light interest in these films. The cinema was packed for FYEO, which I hadn't expected, with hardly any promotional activities undertaken.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    FYEO is really good Bond film. Highly entertaining. The team who made it knew what they were doing. It was like a finely oiled machine at that point. OP is perhaps even better.

    The Bond-wagon has had a few dodgy moments since then. Still not sure EON has it back under control.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    FYEO is really good Bond film. Highly entertaining. The team who made it knew what they were doing. It was like a finely oiled machine at that point. OP is perhaps even better.

    The Bond-wagon has had a few dodgy moments since then. Still not sure EON has it back under control.
    Agreed. Keep in mind that it was an entirely different team. As you said, finely oiled, very experienced and hands on.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 7,969
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    FYEO is really good Bond film. Highly entertaining. The team who made it knew what they were doing. It was like a finely oiled machine at that point. OP is perhaps even better.

    The Bond-wagon has had a few dodgy moments since then. Still not sure EON has it back under control.
    Agreed. Keep in mind that it was an entirely different team. As you said, finely oiled, very experienced and hands on.

    In a way the same can be said about SP. I'm not saying it's the same level as FYEO, just that I was amazed by the enthusiasm of the public for a film that isn't that outstanding compared to others in the series. Yes I loved it, and love it far more now as it really works fantastic on the big screen, but still.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    CommanderRoss wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    FYEO is really good Bond film. Highly entertaining. The team who made it knew what they were doing. It was like a finely oiled machine at that point. OP is perhaps even better.

    The Bond-wagon has had a few dodgy moments since then. Still not sure EON has it back under control.
    Agreed. Keep in mind that it was an entirely different team. As you said, finely oiled, very experienced and hands on.

    In a way the same can be said about SP. I'm not saying it's the same level as FYEO, just that I was amazed by the enthusiasm of the public for a film that isn't that outstanding compared to others in the series. Yes I loved it, and love it far more now as it really works fantastic on the big screen, but still.
    My experience in the theatre wasn't one of audience enthusiasm though. People were bored and fiddling with their phones during my 2nd viewing (which I've recounted here before). Sadly, I shared their sentiments.

    I think it went down far better in some European countries in comparison to stateside (as evidenced by relative box office). It has a sort of deliberate Euro aesthetic to it, and the characters are a bit detached and cold (I'm not saying that is a European characteristic mind you - just that I can understand its appeal to some).

    It's ironic therefore that there are many American fans on this forum who like it.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited August 2017 Posts: 9,020
    .
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    @BondJasonBond006, the US critics did me a huge favour. If not for them I would have gone in to the theatre with inflated (rather than realistic) expectations, and would have been even more crushed than I was by what I witnessed.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited August 2017 Posts: 9,020
    .
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    @BondJasonBond006, the US critics did me a huge favour. If not for them I would have gone in to the theatre with inflated (rather than realistic) expectations, and would have been even more crushed than I was by what I witnessed.

    That's what happened with Skyfall for me. I just could never see what they were raving about. Still can't.
    That makes two of us, Jason.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 7,969
    I think there's a growing discrepancy between what works in Europe, the US and the rest of the world. I noticed that more and more films are either a hit in the US OR the rest, and less and less in both. I don't know why, but it's something I've noticed, or perhaps, percieved.

    Yes, SP is perhaps darker and more 'cold' then previous entries and I think that certainly appeals more to a European audience. See the average European film and you'll notice they're far more gritty, dark and less optimistic. Even the compulsory happy ending is often not there at all. Go watch a Scandinavian film and you'll end up depressed for sure.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    SP is a real chore to sit through and for me, is easily the most boring and uninteresting Bond entry in the series. So much talent carelessly wasted.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited June 2017 Posts: 9,117
    Murdock wrote: »
    As I said early on, Spectre is the modern day Octopussy. It's got some flaws sure but if you see it for what it is and accept the flaws you can enjoy it.

    Easy.

    SP is nowhere near OP.

    A narrative mess with extremely mediocre action, a dismal score and bog average villain or Sir Rog at his absolute zenith delivering blistering entertainment with a tension filled climax, two (count them!) cracking villains hamming it up to perfection, a John Barry score and the stunt team hitting out of the park.

    Not even close.

    OP's flaws are annoying but superfluous (some of the tuk tuk chase, Tarzan, gorilla suit) and can be just ignored. SP's are the underpinning foundations of the plot and thus the whole edifice comes crashing down like an old house in Venice after someone has shot the airbags holding it up.
  • RobertsonRobertson
    Posts: 170
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Not even close.

    OP is one of the top three Bond films; SP is one of the worst.

  • noSolaceleftnoSolaceleft
    Posts: 1,162
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    As I said early on, Spectre is the modern day Octopussy. It's got some flaws sure but if you see it for what it is and accept the flaws you can enjoy it.

    Easy.

    SP is nowhere near OP.

    A narrative mess with extremely mediocre action, a dismal score and bog average villain or Sir Rog at his absolute zenith delivering blistering entertainment with a tension filled climax, two (count them!) cracking villains hamming it up to perfection, a John Barry score and the stunt team hitting out of the park.

    Not even close.

    OP's flaws are annoying but superfluous (some of the tuk tuk chase, Tarzan, gorilla suit) and can be just ignored. SP's are the underpinning foundations of the plot and thus the whole edifice comes crashing down like an old house in Venice after someone has shot the airbags holding it up.

    You seem to have summed it up quite nicely, I'd say.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    edited August 2017 Posts: 9,020
    .
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,978
    CommanderRoss wrote: »
    I think there's a growing discrepancy between what works in Europe, the US and the rest of the world. I noticed that more and more films are either a hit in the US OR the rest, and less and less in both. I don't know why, but it's something I've noticed, or perhaps, percieved.

    Worldwide box office is why Schwarzenegger and Cruise have had careers long after they were past their sell-by date in the U.S.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 11,425
    BondJasonBond006 wrote: »
    @bondjames
    just omit all the American critics and SP would skyrocket to ratings similar to Skyfall.

    SPECTRE failed the American audience but it was a roaring success elsewhere.

    It's LTK all over again.
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