In time, will SP be more or less appreciated?

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  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I think George would do pretty well. He was a trained fighter and during his screen test broke the nose of his fight partner, which sealed the role for him. He's a very believable fighter to me on the screen.

    It'd come between he and Dan or Sean, I think, but they all have different styles and strengths. George is a bit of a berzerker with a wild side, Sean's a simple brawler with a slight variety of other styles, and Dan's the modern military man whose style feels like a mix of all forms in use to train agents across many government agencies today. I'd bet on Dan's Bond, personally, simply for his massive variety of skill in the arts, and his very animal determination.

    It's also easier to shoot fight scenes today than in the past, so the others suffer a bit for it in comparison to the best of the modern day in Dan's Bond, but not all the time. I think the fights of OHMSS are as operatic and as rough as what we have today in many respects, for instance.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited April 2017 Posts: 13,894
    No, absolutely not. Dalton's 'fights' (if you want to even call them that) are a disgrace next to Craig's physically-demanding brawls. Bond drowning Fisher in a sink after throwing themselves through toilet stalls is far more violent, far more exciting and far better than LTK's Miami Vice club fight or whenever he might of punched someone. An example; Dalton elbows a dude and then lightly hits him with the back of his hand... I think the majority of us would agree that Craig's Bond being the best fighter is a fact.

    It's a matter of taste, like how I prefer to see what is going on in movie fights. Sure, it's all good and well having two blokes fighting, bruises and all. But what's the point when the fight looks like it was filmed by attaching the camera to one end of a length of rope, and swinging it around by the other end. It's so exciting, I can't tell what's going on.
    If all 6 actors had to fight bare-knuckled, do you really think Lazenby would win? Seriously!? He'd be buried underneath Moore.

    What, 5 actors and a guy who was trained? Yes, my money is on George.
    Admittedly, Lazenby got unlucky and had the worst editing (and thus the worst fist fights) of the entire franchise. I am not blaming Lazenby - but those fights are truly horrendous. Terribly pieced together and those blasted sound effects ruin the rest!

    Lazenby had the worst editing? I wasn't aware that George was Bond in QOS.

    This:


    or this:


    I'm not going to speak for anyone else, but I would take the editing of OHMSS over QOS.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Lets just say i wouldnt like to put Connery,Lazenby and Craig into a room to fight to the death...might be a bloodfest...as Bond's i mean.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Lets just say i wouldnt like to put Connery,Lazenby and Craig into a room to fight to the death...might be a bloodfest...as Bond's i mean.

    Better they fight then join forces to fight others. Then we'd all be done for.

    I'd actually like to see that movie.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,884
    But that's the problem with Lazenby's fights. You cam't really see what happening. Just like in QoS. So you're right about QoS and it's very questionable editing but that doesn't ruin my point at all.

    Anyway, imo the fights in CR/SF are well done by all those who took part and there's no difficulty in seeing what's happening on-screen. Acting, direction and editing all superb.
  • Posts: 19,339
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Lets just say i wouldnt like to put Connery,Lazenby and Craig into a room to fight to the death...might be a bloodfest...as Bond's i mean.

    Better they fight then join forces to fight others. Then we'd all be done for.

    I'd actually like to see that movie.

    Wow,what a force for good.Brady,but alas will never happen,as re Bond they are the same man.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    But that's the problem with Lazenby's fights. You cam't really see what happening. Just like in QoS. So you're right about QoS and it's very questionable editing but that doesn't ruin my point at all.

    Anyway, imo the fights in CR/SF are well done by all those who took part and there's no difficulty in seeing what's happening on-screen. Acting, direction and editing all superb.

    Can't tell what's going on? Do you lot wear double eye-patches watching these movies, or something?
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,459
    I can understand someone not liking the editing in QoS, but to say that the action in that OHMSS fight is discernible seems rather extreme.

    @BondAficionado, what makes the OHMSS fight tough to follow, but not, say, the stairwell fight in CR?
  • QuantumOrganizationQuantumOrganization We have people everywhere
    Posts: 1,187
    The hotel fight in Port Au Prince in QOS is as clear as the fights in CR,SF, and SP
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,884
    In a nutshell, the stairwell fight has wider shots and editing that flows and doesn't come across as jagged. And there aren't any obvious continuity mistakes like in OHMSS beach fight. Otoh CR's makes sense: stairwell looks like it was 3-4 floors long, dead mercenary is already on the ground and we still can spot all the fine details like him losing the machete and getting his head cut on the glass windows etc.

    Is anyone on this forum a film editor? I'd love to hear his/her opinion on the matter.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,459
    Lot of wide shots in the OHMSS scene, too, and I can't think of any fine details we miss out on during the fight, either.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Dalton is the one actor who didn't ever impress me in the fights. That one in the bar was bloody awful. Even Brosnan gave us an excellent one in GE, although I wasn't keen on any of his other fights.
  • Posts: 19,339
    bondjames wrote: »
    Dalton is the one actor who didn't ever impress me in the fights. That one in the bar was bloody awful. Even Brosnan gave us an excellent one in GE, although I wasn't keen on any of his other fights.

    He was quite nasty in the fight on top of Carver's printing press i thought.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited April 2017 Posts: 23,883
    barryt007 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Dalton is the one actor who didn't ever impress me in the fights. That one in the bar was bloody awful. Even Brosnan gave us an excellent one in GE, although I wasn't keen on any of his other fights.

    He was quite nasty in the fight on top of Carver's printing press i thought.
    That's the one I can't stand! I remember being so disappointed in the theatre watching it for the first time, because GE had set my expectations sky high. The punches and choreography were weak here imho, and there was a lot of pain face by all parties.


  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Lot of wide shots in the OHMSS scene, too, and I can't think of any fine details we miss out on during the fight, either.

    I was just about to say, that fight is very widely shot, at times from the ceiling looking down on Bond and Che Che.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,459
    Don't want to keep derailing this, but that printing press fight is probably the weakest in the Brosnan era for me. The laughably bad sound effects don't help, nor does the choreography. One of my consistent complains with that movie is how weak the fight scenes feel.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I don't think anything beats the Bond vs. Renard fight in crappiness. I've never seen a Bond and villain look so geriatric and weak going at each other.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,459
    I don't think anything beats the Bond vs. Renard fight in crappiness. I've never seen a Bond and villain look so geriatric and weak going at each other.

    The choreography in that doesn't bother me nearly as much as the fact that Bond is going against an "invincible" villain, but the end fight is so disappointing and generic. Could've been much, much better.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Renard as a whole is crap..it could have been Electra on her own and it would have made no difference.
    To build a villain up that much,as they did with Renard,and then deliver so little,was terrible...009 shot him in the head,he will get stronger until he dies - where did we see this in its maximum capacity for Bond to overcome ?
  • Posts: 3,279
    I think George would do pretty well. He was a trained fighter and during his screen test broke the nose of his fight partner, which sealed the role for him. He's a very believable fighter to me on the screen.

    It'd come between he and Dan or Sean, I think, but they all have different styles and strengths. George is a bit of a berzerker with a wild side, Sean's a simple brawler with a slight variety of other styles, and Dan's the modern military man whose style feels like a mix of all forms in use to train agents across many government agencies today. I'd bet on Dan's Bond, personally, simply for his massive variety of skill in the arts, and his very animal determination.

    I think Craig, Connery and Laz are the most convincing three actors to play Bond from a toughness POV. They all look like they wouldn't shy away from a brawl, and I wouldn't want to mess with any of them physically.

    There you go. One thing we do both agree on.

    ;)
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I think George would do pretty well. He was a trained fighter and during his screen test broke the nose of his fight partner, which sealed the role for him. He's a very believable fighter to me on the screen.

    It'd come between he and Dan or Sean, I think, but they all have different styles and strengths. George is a bit of a berzerker with a wild side, Sean's a simple brawler with a slight variety of other styles, and Dan's the modern military man whose style feels like a mix of all forms in use to train agents across many government agencies today. I'd bet on Dan's Bond, personally, simply for his massive variety of skill in the arts, and his very animal determination.

    I think Craig, Connery and Laz are the most convincing three actors to play Bond from a toughness POV. They all look like they wouldn't shy away from a brawl, and I wouldn't want to mess with any of them physically.

    There you go. One thing we do both agree on.

    ;)

    We also love Dalton's Bond.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    bondjames wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Dalton is the one actor who didn't ever impress me in the fights. That one in the bar was bloody awful. Even Brosnan gave us an excellent one in GE, although I wasn't keen on any of his other fights.

    He was quite nasty in the fight on top of Carver's printing press i thought.
    That's the one I can't stand! I remember being so disappointed in the theatre watching it for the first time, because GE had set my expectations sky high. The punches and choreography were weak here imho, and there was a lot of pain face by all parties.

    I deeply understand where you're coming from, @bondjames. I mean, in comparison with GoldenEye, Brosnan's other fights seems like it's done by a different and a weaker actor with no skills whatsoever. Whatever happened to the man we've seen in GoldenEye? He kicked arse and took names, whereas in the rest of his tenure, he merely struggled like a newbie learning a few tricks on first day of his martial arts session.
  • Posts: 3,279
    I think George would do pretty well. He was a trained fighter and during his screen test broke the nose of his fight partner, which sealed the role for him. He's a very believable fighter to me on the screen.

    It'd come between he and Dan or Sean, I think, but they all have different styles and strengths. George is a bit of a berzerker with a wild side, Sean's a simple brawler with a slight variety of other styles, and Dan's the modern military man whose style feels like a mix of all forms in use to train agents across many government agencies today. I'd bet on Dan's Bond, personally, simply for his massive variety of skill in the arts, and his very animal determination.

    I think Craig, Connery and Laz are the most convincing three actors to play Bond from a toughness POV. They all look like they wouldn't shy away from a brawl, and I wouldn't want to mess with any of them physically.

    There you go. One thing we do both agree on.

    ;)

    We also love Dalton's Bond.
    Really? Judging by how quick you are to attack any mention of LTK, I would assume you hate Dalton with a passion.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,884
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Lot of wide shots in the OHMSS scene, too, and I can't think of any fine details we miss out on during the fight, either.

    I was just about to say, that fight is very widely shot, at times from the ceiling looking down on Bond and Che Che.

    I was thinking of the fight with Draco's goons near his office. The camera is very close to the actors and it sweeps (many times) into the punches and kicks as they happen. Very, very difficult, to see what's going on. Like I said, editors are to blame (unless 2nd unit didn't do their job and left Glen with the chaos). Who knows?

  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Damn, a lot of intellectual dishonesty going on in here.

    Say what you want about Lazenby but he is arguably the best fighter of all the Bond actors and his fight scenes are very much discernible. Also, I'm sorry but Lazenby on any day of the week would destroy Craig (obviously Dan is no slouch either).
  • Posts: 3,279
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Lot of wide shots in the OHMSS scene, too, and I can't think of any fine details we miss out on during the fight, either.

    I was just about to say, that fight is very widely shot, at times from the ceiling looking down on Bond and Che Che.

    I was thinking of the fight with Draco's goons near his office. The camera is very close to the actors and it sweeps (many times) into the punches and kicks as they happen. Very, very difficult, to see what's going on. Like I said, editors are to blame (unless 2nd unit didn't do their job and left Glen with the chaos). Who knows?
    I always found the camera angles weird in the fight scenes too. I guess the fast editing was supposed to make the fights seems more brutal (like Greengrass would use to better effect years later on Bourne).

    Hunt was very talented as an editor, but didn't quite have the same directing talent as Young had with his much better fight scene in FRWL. He got too carried away with speeding things up (literally), chopping too much, cramming too many odd camera angles in, coupled with strange sound effects.


  • Posts: 4,325
    The sound effects on the fight scenes in OHMSS have always really bothered me. Also the bells in the cow shed work well.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited April 2017 Posts: 5,962
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Lot of wide shots in the OHMSS scene, too, and I can't think of any fine details we miss out on during the fight, either.

    I was just about to say, that fight is very widely shot, at times from the ceiling looking down on Bond and Che Che.

    I was thinking of the fight with Draco's goons near his office. The camera is very close to the actors and it sweeps (many times) into the punches and kicks as they happen. Very, very difficult, to see what's going on. Like I said, editors are to blame (unless 2nd unit didn't do their job and left Glen with the chaos). Who knows?
    I always found the camera angles weird in the fight scenes too. I guess the fast editing was supposed to make the fights seems more brutal (like Greengrass would use to better effect years later on Bourne).

    Hunt was very talented as an editor, but didn't quite have the same directing talent as Young had with his much better fight scene in FRWL. He got too carried away with speeding things up (literally), chopping too much, cramming too many odd camera angles in, coupled with strange sound effects.


    OHMSS is a product of its times. The studio system was in serious crisis so Hunt experimented and brought in "indie film" techniques. No one knew, and many doubted, if the series could survive Connery's absence which caused Hunt to swing for the fences.

    The late '60s were also a "downer" film era, ideal for the ending of the novel. It was a perfect storm.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited April 2017 Posts: 28,694
    I think George would do pretty well. He was a trained fighter and during his screen test broke the nose of his fight partner, which sealed the role for him. He's a very believable fighter to me on the screen.

    It'd come between he and Dan or Sean, I think, but they all have different styles and strengths. George is a bit of a berzerker with a wild side, Sean's a simple brawler with a slight variety of other styles, and Dan's the modern military man whose style feels like a mix of all forms in use to train agents across many government agencies today. I'd bet on Dan's Bond, personally, simply for his massive variety of skill in the arts, and his very animal determination.

    I think Craig, Connery and Laz are the most convincing three actors to play Bond from a toughness POV. They all look like they wouldn't shy away from a brawl, and I wouldn't want to mess with any of them physically.

    There you go. One thing we do both agree on.

    ;)

    We also love Dalton's Bond.
    Really? Judging by how quick you are to attack any mention of LTK, I would assume you hate Dalton with a passion.

    @jetsetwilly, heavens no. I'm ashamed it came off that way. Dalton is my #3 Bond behind Sean and Dan, and TLD and LTK around the top ten, after the films by those actors and OHMSS. I certainly wouldn't put Brosnan or Moore's eras ahead of him!

    I am critical of some aspects of his performance, including physicality, and though I enjoy LTK and find it superior to TLD as a piece of Bond entertainment, I also have issues with it and the tonal inconsistency of the whole era, which I am honest and up front about. I'm still able to enjoy the movies, however, and some of what Dalton was able to do. I also try to put myself into Cubby's feet, realizing how difficult (and nonsensical) it may've been for him to just throw all the elements of Bond out the window and go all in for Dalton's approach. I want Dalton in all Fleming, all the time films, but as with DAF post-OHMSS, though I have my disappointment with what went down, it was probably the way it had to be.
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Lot of wide shots in the OHMSS scene, too, and I can't think of any fine details we miss out on during the fight, either.

    I was just about to say, that fight is very widely shot, at times from the ceiling looking down on Bond and Che Che.

    I was thinking of the fight with Draco's goons near his office. The camera is very close to the actors and it sweeps (many times) into the punches and kicks as they happen. Very, very difficult, to see what's going on. Like I said, editors are to blame (unless 2nd unit didn't do their job and left Glen with the chaos). Who knows?
    I always found the camera angles weird in the fight scenes too. I guess the fast editing was supposed to make the fights seems more brutal (like Greengrass would use to better effect years later on Bourne).

    Hunt was very talented as an editor, but didn't quite have the same directing talent as Young had with his much better fight scene in FRWL. He got too carried away with speeding things up (literally), chopping too much, cramming too many odd camera angles in, coupled with strange sound effects.


    OHMSS's action always strikes me as being rather avant-garde in comparison to what'd come before (and after, even more so). There's a punchier sound, more ferocious cuts, shifts from short to wide angles to disorient the viewer, etc.

    I personally love it. There's just some crazy moments that really get me going, like the beach fight where Bond in a wide shot punches a man into the sea's surf as Barry's score blasts like a Bondian siren. The Che Che fight is also shot very interestingly, like a spectator bout. All the other fights in between, like a Draco's, outside the Piz Gloria lift and that great echoey brush up in the bell cabin are just really visceral to me.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489

    I also try to put myself into Cubby's feet, realizing how difficult (and nonsensical) ...

    You said it.
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