Should Moneypenny and Q Have Returned?

edited November 2015 in Bond Movies Posts: 582
What do people think?

I liked the interplay with MP in the car chase in Spectre (controversial I know), but I don't think we'd be missing much if MP left the series. I'm wondering if they're going to be content with her just being behind her desk again. The repartee between SC and Lois Maxwell will never be topped.

Q - I like what Whishaw is doing - good to change the dynamic from older Q to younger Q. But ... 'exploding pens ... we don't really go in for that kind of thing anymore' - so, do we need to have a Q, if you don't do that kind of thing?

Tanner has also become somewhat redundant.
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Comments

  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,566
    Tanner isn't redundant. He is there as the flip side of Bond. You can almost sense that Tanner would love to be like Bond, but he isn't capable of bending the rules. He is M's dependable right hand man.

    Should Q and MP have come back? Of course they should, and they are perfectly cast. They have a different dynamic in this day and age, but it fits perfectly well with Craig's Bond.
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 322
    Yes, they are key Head Office staff - the boss' PA and the quartermaster - but should stay in Head Office doing the day job. They help round out the character, and show that Bond is part of a government security machine not a lone vigilante, however, cameo appearances will suffice.

    To me, having them out in the field diminishes the Govt department side, and depicts as little more than a little gang of action hero dogooders with specialist skills - refugees from a Children's cartoon tv show

    My fear is that Moneypenny being portrayed by a black woman is too great a temptation for the studio not to make a PC statement by running round being a positive role model, than to be allowed to get on with the typing.

    On the other hand, they could expand Tanner's role. He is Chief of Staff, and Bond's only friend, so be given more air time - provided he does something worthwhile.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    tigers99 wrote:
    What do people think?

    I liked the interplay with MP in the car chase in Spectre (controversial I know), but I don't think we'd be missing much if MP left the series. I'm wondering if they're going to be content with her just being behind her desk again. The repartee between SC and Lois Maxwell will never be topped.

    Q - I like what Whishaw is doing - good to change the dynamic from older Q to younger Q. But ... 'exploding pens ... we don't really go in for that kind of thing anymore' - so, do we need to have a Q, if you don't do that kind of thing?

    Tanner has also become somewhat redundant.

    MP and Q its fine to bring back if they could just stop obsesssing about the need to give them more screen time.

    SF I suppose is OK as its in the context of the story but just look at the climax of SP - M (this is the guy in charge of protecting the nation remember) decides that rather than send say Bond and a load of other 00s he'll let a secretary (with a proven record of bottling it in the field), a computer geek and a man so dull his wife begs him to have an affair with other women just to make him even 1% interesting to all tag along to save the country.

    What logic is M employing there other than 'Well we've got all these actors on big money so we need to use them.'?

    Tanner has always been redundant in the films which is why Cubby & Harry never bothered with him as he just makes the MI6 team too bloated.
    He was OK in GE I guess as Kitchen is an engaging actor (although all he did was spout exposition) but in this current incarnation its difficult to remember who the guy is from scene to scene as your memory just blanks him out. Buying a tube of grouting at B&Q is a more memorable experience than watching Kinnear on screen.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    edited November 2015 Posts: 1,727
    Yes. But they should not be included in the screenplay quite as much - it just isn't believable. Deskbound civil servants don't go around foiling evil plots.

    And I disagree about Tanner being useful. His 'role' of exposition and dishing out scripted plot-info used to be done by some minister (usually of defence) or other official figure. Don't see what was wrong with that.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,566
    I just think Rory Kinnear plays it to perfection. The slightly befuddled, one-thought-behind-everyone-else expression is quite amusing. And I'm sure (based on his other work) that he knows exactly what he is doing in the role.

    There is a moment in SP when Bond is asking Q for a favour which could get them both in trouble, and they glance over at Tanner to see if he is listening. Kinnear adopts an expression that says 'Not only am I not listening, I'm actually considering what to have for dinner tonight'. That look on his face cracked me up.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,727
    NicNac wrote: »
    I just think Rory Kinnear plays it to perfection. The slightly befuddled, one-thought-behind-everyone-else expression is quite amusing. And I'm sure (based on his other work) that he knows exactly what he is doing in the role.

    There is a moment in SP when Bond is asking Q for a favour which could get them both in trouble, and they glance over at Tanner to see if he is listening. Kinnear adopts an expression that says 'Not only am I not listening, I'm actually considering what to have for dinner tonight'. That look on his face cracked me up.

    Pretty much sums up the daily thought process of the entire British civil-service...
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    NicNac wrote: »
    I just think Rory Kinnear plays it to perfection. The slightly befuddled, one-thought-behind-everyone-else expression is quite amusing.

    Have you ever read any Fleming?

    Can I remind you that this guy is basically M's deputy. Would you find said befuddled expression so amusing if M was indisposed and Rory had our national security in his hands?

    Can you seriously imagine Rory giving Bond a bollocking? I can of the Bill Tanner in the books but Rory it strikes me is more in awe of Bond and is like one of those guys who reads all the articles in GQ about mixing Vesper's in a desperate attempt to bring some Bond glamour into his dull life.

    No authority. No screen presence. No relevance to the plot. No point at all.

    Loved the bit in SP when gormless Rory piped up 'I didnt know we had a safe house called Hildebrand ' and M just shut him down. I'd like to imagine that Rory is Judi's guy and Ralph knows hes useless but due to some EU employment law bullshit he cant just outright sack him without a good reason so is stuck with him for the time being.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,566
    NicNac wrote: »
    I just think Rory Kinnear plays it to perfection. The slightly befuddled, one-thought-behind-everyone-else expression is quite amusing.

    Have you ever read any Fleming?

    Can I remind you that this guy is basically M's deputy. Would you find said befuddled expression so amusing if M was indisposed and Rory had our national security in his hands?

    Can you seriously imagine Rory giving Bond a bollocking? I can of the Bill Tanner in the books but Rory it strikes me is more in awe of Bond and is like one of those guys who reads all the articles in GQ about mixing Vesper's in a desperate attempt to bring some Bond glamour into his dull life.

    No authority. No screen presence. No relevance to the plot. No point at all.

    Loved the bit in SP when gormless Rory piped up 'I didnt know we had a safe house called Hildebrand ' and M just shut him down. I'd like to imagine that Rory is Judi's guy and Ralph knows hes useless but due to some EU employment law bullshit he cant just outright sack him without a good reason so is stuck with him for the time being.

    Oooh, pardon me for breathing.

    I bet I read Fleming when you were wearing nappies, but as to whether that's even slightly relevant any more is up for discussion.
    The world has moved on I'm afraid, and the film 007 moved on years ago. Yes they keep one foot in Fleming's world wherever they can, but nit picking over the characteristics of a secondary character, no, I'm not that obsessive.
    I like Kinnear in the role, and I don't delve so deep as to imagine what the world of espionage would be like if Kinnear's Tanner was in charge. I've got better things to do.

    I'll leave it to Eon to decide how relevant he is.
  • Posts: 12,506
    I am glad they are back, I also enjoyed the fact that the whole MI6 team played an active role together at the end too!
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 5,767
    I actually find Tanner more interesting with every film he´s in, maybe because he shows the biggest linear character development of all of them. And the very fact that Bond took care that Tanner´s not listening in Q´s workshop shows that Tanner has some kind of authority. In QoS, Bond would have sinply ignored Tanner, even if he were standing right next to him.

    Q was ok in SF and much better in SP. I liked his jokes a lot. Q´s appearance on the mountain top was completely useless and beside all logic and seems to be for the sole purpose of buying him more screen time. However, there again, Q´s banter with Bond ("I really hate you right now." "Thank you.") works very, very well IMO.

    I wasn´t the slightest bit bothered by Bond calling MP during the car chase, and MP´s look at C at one point is impressive. But MP hopping around in the action diminishes her value a lot, because she used to be (well, some or more decades ago) a huge factor of emotional comfort, both for Bond and for the audience. There were traces of that in SF (MP shaving Bond) and SP (MP visiting Bond´s flat), but in the end she´s closer to Goodnight from the TMWTGG film. MP spending more time outside the office than inside degrades her character to some kind of inferior Bond girl. I´m not asking to bring back that MP from the old days, but her role could be defined and expressed much, much better. Make her as special as she once was. Otherwise it wouldn´t matter much if she were replaced with changing office ladies in each new film.
  • Posts: 582
    boldfinger wrote: »
    I actually find Tanner more interesting with every film he´s in, maybe because he shows the biggest linear character development of all of them. And the very fact that Bond took care that Tanner´s not listening in Q´s workshop shows that Tanner has some kind of authority. In QoS, Bond would have sinply ignored Tanner, even if he were standing right next to him.

    Q was ok in SF and much better in SP. I liked his jokes a lot. Q´s appearance on the mountain top was completely useless and beside all logic and seems to be for the sole purpose of buying him more screen time. However, there again, Q´s banter with Bond ("I really hate you right now." "Thank you.") works very, very well IMO.

    I wasn´t the slightest bit bothered by Bond calling MP during the car chase, and MP´s look at C at one point is impressive. But MP hopping around in the action diminishes her value a lot, because she used to be (well, some or more decades ago) a huge factor of emotional comfort, both for Bond and for the audience. There were traces of that in SF (MP shaving Bond) and SP (MP visiting Bond´s flat), but in the end she´s closer to Goodnight from the TMWTGG film. MP spending more time outside the office than inside degrades her character to some kind of inferior Bond girl. I´m not asking to bring back that MP from the old days, but her role could be defined and expressed much, much better. Make her as special as she once was. Otherwise it wouldn´t matter much if she were replaced with changing office ladies in each new film.

    Okay my initial remark was to elicit a debate, I think Kinnear is a great actor and was great in QoS and SF. Just felt a bit superfluous in SP. I went with a friend who's not a Bond fan and he really couldn't remember who he was when we discussed the film afterwards.

    I really like Harris, Fiennes and Whishaw. All brilliant. But would like M, Q and MP to have smaller roles again.
  • Posts: 582
    Incidentally Tanner
    was originally going to be a mole in Spectre
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,727
    tigers99 wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    I actually find Tanner more interesting with every film he´s in, maybe because he shows the biggest linear character development of all of them. And the very fact that Bond took care that Tanner´s not listening in Q´s workshop shows that Tanner has some kind of authority. In QoS, Bond would have sinply ignored Tanner, even if he were standing right next to him.

    Q was ok in SF and much better in SP. I liked his jokes a lot. Q´s appearance on the mountain top was completely useless and beside all logic and seems to be for the sole purpose of buying him more screen time. However, there again, Q´s banter with Bond ("I really hate you right now." "Thank you.") works very, very well IMO.

    I wasn´t the slightest bit bothered by Bond calling MP during the car chase, and MP´s look at C at one point is impressive. But MP hopping around in the action diminishes her value a lot, because she used to be (well, some or more decades ago) a huge factor of emotional comfort, both for Bond and for the audience. There were traces of that in SF (MP shaving Bond) and SP (MP visiting Bond´s flat), but in the end she´s closer to Goodnight from the TMWTGG film. MP spending more time outside the office than inside degrades her character to some kind of inferior Bond girl. I´m not asking to bring back that MP from the old days, but her role could be defined and expressed much, much better. Make her as special as she once was. Otherwise it wouldn´t matter much if she were replaced with changing office ladies in each new film.

    Okay my initial remark was to elicit a debate, I think Kinnear is a great actor and was great in QoS and SF. Just felt a bit superfluous in SP. I went with a friend who's not a Bond fan and he really couldn't remember who he was when we discussed the film afterwards.

    I really like Harris, Fiennes and Whishaw. All brilliant. But would like M, Q and MP to have smaller roles again.

    Can live with Q equipping Bond out in the field every once in a while. But esentially EoN handicapped itself by giving the roles of M - Q - MP to actors who simply won't turn up for a classic 007 cameo.
    I think Fiennes is excellent btw, but I could take or leave Wishaw or Harris to be honest.
  • Posts: 5,767
    tigers99 wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    I actually find Tanner more interesting with every film he´s in, maybe because he shows the biggest linear character development of all of them. And the very fact that Bond took care that Tanner´s not listening in Q´s workshop shows that Tanner has some kind of authority. In QoS, Bond would have sinply ignored Tanner, even if he were standing right next to him.

    Q was ok in SF and much better in SP. I liked his jokes a lot. Q´s appearance on the mountain top was completely useless and beside all logic and seems to be for the sole purpose of buying him more screen time. However, there again, Q´s banter with Bond ("I really hate you right now." "Thank you.") works very, very well IMO.

    I wasn´t the slightest bit bothered by Bond calling MP during the car chase, and MP´s look at C at one point is impressive. But MP hopping around in the action diminishes her value a lot, because she used to be (well, some or more decades ago) a huge factor of emotional comfort, both for Bond and for the audience. There were traces of that in SF (MP shaving Bond) and SP (MP visiting Bond´s flat), but in the end she´s closer to Goodnight from the TMWTGG film. MP spending more time outside the office than inside degrades her character to some kind of inferior Bond girl. I´m not asking to bring back that MP from the old days, but her role could be defined and expressed much, much better. Make her as special as she once was. Otherwise it wouldn´t matter much if she were replaced with changing office ladies in each new film.

    Okay my initial remark was to elicit a debate, I think Kinnear is a great actor and was great in QoS and SF. Just felt a bit superfluous in SP. I went with a friend who's not a Bond fan and he really couldn't remember who he was when we discussed the film afterwards.

    I really like Harris, Fiennes and Whishaw. All brilliant. But would like M, Q and MP to have smaller roles again.
    Couldn´t that also be because Tanner´s name is hardly ever mentioned?

  • Posts: 582
    boldfinger wrote: »
    tigers99 wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    I actually find Tanner more interesting with every film he´s in, maybe because he shows the biggest linear character development of all of them. And the very fact that Bond took care that Tanner´s not listening in Q´s workshop shows that Tanner has some kind of authority. In QoS, Bond would have sinply ignored Tanner, even if he were standing right next to him.

    Q was ok in SF and much better in SP. I liked his jokes a lot. Q´s appearance on the mountain top was completely useless and beside all logic and seems to be for the sole purpose of buying him more screen time. However, there again, Q´s banter with Bond ("I really hate you right now." "Thank you.") works very, very well IMO.

    I wasn´t the slightest bit bothered by Bond calling MP during the car chase, and MP´s look at C at one point is impressive. But MP hopping around in the action diminishes her value a lot, because she used to be (well, some or more decades ago) a huge factor of emotional comfort, both for Bond and for the audience. There were traces of that in SF (MP shaving Bond) and SP (MP visiting Bond´s flat), but in the end she´s closer to Goodnight from the TMWTGG film. MP spending more time outside the office than inside degrades her character to some kind of inferior Bond girl. I´m not asking to bring back that MP from the old days, but her role could be defined and expressed much, much better. Make her as special as she once was. Otherwise it wouldn´t matter much if she were replaced with changing office ladies in each new film.

    Okay my initial remark was to elicit a debate, I think Kinnear is a great actor and was great in QoS and SF. Just felt a bit superfluous in SP. I went with a friend who's not a Bond fan and he really couldn't remember who he was when we discussed the film afterwards.

    I really like Harris, Fiennes and Whishaw. All brilliant. But would like M, Q and MP to have smaller roles again.
    Couldn´t that also be because Tanner´s name is hardly ever mentioned?

    True, but it also took quite a bit of describing for him to remember who he was.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    boldfinger wrote: »
    I actually find Tanner more interesting with every film he´s in
    tigers99 wrote: »
    I think Kinnear is a great actor and was great in QoS and SF.

    You guys are killing me. :))
  • Posts: 582
    boldfinger wrote: »
    I actually find Tanner more interesting with every film he´s in
    tigers99 wrote: »
    I think Kinnear is a great actor and was great in QoS and SF.

    You guys are killing me. :))

    Why, he's great in Shakespeare. Have you seen him perform Shakespeare?
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    edited November 2015 Posts: 1,727
    boldfinger wrote: »
    I actually find Tanner more interesting with every film he´s in
    tigers99 wrote: »
    I think Kinnear is a great actor and was great in QoS and SF.

    You guys are killing me. :))

    Is this stuff serious? I was assuming it was said with tongue firmly in cheek /:)
  • Posts: 582
    You don't think Rory Kinnear is a good actor? I mean obviously in the Bond films he hardly has anything to do. I wouldn't say they're standout performances by any means. When I said he was great in QoS and SF, I meant he's great for that part. And like I said, Sp could have done without him. But he's not bad to see on a Friday night in a Shakespeare play, believe me.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    No authority.

    None.
  • Posts: 11,425
    tigers99 wrote:
    What do people think?

    I liked the interplay with MP in the car chase in Spectre (controversial I know), but I don't think we'd be missing much if MP left the series. I'm wondering if they're going to be content with her just being behind her desk again. The repartee between SC and Lois Maxwell will never be topped.

    Q - I like what Whishaw is doing - good to change the dynamic from older Q to younger Q. But ... 'exploding pens ... we don't really go in for that kind of thing anymore' - so, do we need to have a Q, if you don't do that kind of thing?

    Tanner has also become somewhat redundant.

    MP and Q its fine to bring back if they could just stop obsesssing about the need to give them more screen time.

    SF I suppose is OK as its in the context of the story but just look at the climax of SP - M (this is the guy in charge of protecting the nation remember) decides that rather than send say Bond and a load of other 00s he'll let a secretary (with a proven record of bottling it in the field), a computer geek and a man so dull his wife begs him to have an affair with other women just to make him even 1% interesting to all tag along to save the country.

    What logic is M employing there other than 'Well we've got all these actors on big money so we need to use them.'?

    Tanner has always been redundant in the films which is why Cubby & Harry never bothered with him as he just makes the MI6 team too bloated.
    He was OK in GE I guess as Kitchen is an engaging actor (although all he did was spout exposition) but in this current incarnation its difficult to remember who the guy is from scene to scene as your memory just blanks him out. Buying a tube of grouting at B&Q is a more memorable experience than watching Kinnear on screen.

    Have to say if someone asked me if Kinnear was in SP I'd have said no. I find him that forgettable. Watching it again on Tuesday so will keep an eye open for him.

    I think Wishaw has emerged as a very decent Q, after a wobbly start in SF. Harris is fine but keep her behind the desk.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited November 2015 Posts: 9,117
    tigers99 wrote: »
    Why, he's great in Shakespeare. Have you seen him perform Shakespeare?

    And Halle Berry has won an Oscar. What's your point exactly?

    I havent seen him do Shakespeare and I dare say hes competent enough.

    I've seen him in The Imitation Game (dull in another fairly pointless role as hes just sits there to let Turing narrate his story to him) and I watched 10 minutes of alleged comedy Count Arthur Strong before I turned it off for being dismal but Rory was once again solidly dull in that too.

    Indeed if someone ever wants to write a biography of Rory I'm happy to let them use 'Competent Enough' or 'Solidly Dull' as titles.

    Maybe hes just got a shit agent who keeps getting him unrewarding parts playing boring average nobodys with little to no relevance to the main plot when hes really got the range to take on Day Lewis if someone would just give him something meaty to get his teeth into?
    Getafix wrote: »
    Have to say if someone asked me if Kinnear was in SP I'd have said no. I find him that forgettable. Watching it again on Tuesday so will keep an eye open for him.

    I wish you luck. Trouble is once Rory walks on screen (well stands in the background while more important characters are talking) said eye will start to feel incredibly heavy as you start to drop off.
  • Posts: 582
    tigers99 wrote: »
    Why, he's great in Shakespeare. Have you seen him perform Shakespeare?

    And Halle Berry has won an Oscar. What's your point exactly?

    I havent seen him do Shakespeare and I dare say hes competent enough.

    I've seen him in The Imitation Game (dull in another fairly pointless role as hes just sits there to let Turing narrate his story to him) and I watched 10 minutes of alleged comedy Count Arthur Strong before I turned it off for being dismal but Rory was once again solidly dull in that too.

    Indeed if someone ever wants to write a biography of Rory I'm happy to let them use 'Competent Enough' or 'Solidly Dull' as titles.

    Maybe hes just got a shit agent who keeps getting him unrewarding parts playing boring average nobodys with little to no relevance to the main plot when hes really got the range to take on Day Lewis if someone would just give him something meaty to get his teeth into?
    Getafix wrote: »
    Have to say if someone asked me if Kinnear was in SP I'd have said no. I find him that forgettable. Watching it again on Tuesday so will keep an eye open for him.

    I wish you luck. Trouble is once Rory walks on screen (well stands in the background while more important characters are talking) said eye will start to feel incredibly heavy as you start to drop off.

    My point? Merely that he is a good actor. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm happy for you to disagree with me.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I caught a brief moment of Kinnear in Penny Dreadful as a monster or something and thought he was pretty weak.

    As @TheWizardOfIce says, he's consistent in one thing - his dullness.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,876
    Oh, dear. Perhaps this thread title should be changed to "Is Tanner suddenly losing his gloss and appeal?" ;)
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited November 2015 Posts: 7,880
    Kinnear is superb as Tanner. Accept it, or be elliminated. The choice is yours.
  • Lancaster007Lancaster007 Shrublands Health Clinic, England
    Posts: 1,874
    Of course Q and Moneypenny should have returned, they are part of Bond.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,566
    Like I say, he is like the flip side of Bond (film Bond not book) in many ways, and it's a subtle performance so maybe not to everyone's tastes. I notice Count Arthur Strong was mentioned? I saw some of those and Kinnear plays straight man - very well indeed.

    I can see why he isn't rated, but not all actors chew up the scenery, he balances many scenes out.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,351
    Are we blind to the fact that it's all about the team these days and that the Bond films too try to hop on trends?

    - Single superhero films have been replaced by team films like Avengers, JLA (eventually), Suicide Squad, ...
    - The last couple of M:I films shared a few team members
    - The Nolan Batman films made Batman bigger than merely one man
    - ...

    The way I see it, it fits modern television sensibilities. Build a larger cast and especially a returning one and you tickle our geek genes--which is why The Walking Dead isn't merely Rick's story and why 24 became the story of Jack AND Chloe AND Audrey ...

    I think the reason some people disagree with giving MP, Q and M so much screen time is that they feel like these characters are, in their current form, a betrayal of the Lee/Brown, Llewellyn and Maxwell versions of M, Q and MP. Some people wish that we could resurrect our 1963 cast from the dead and continue along the traditional path. My personal view on the subject is that if you alter the characters slightly without altering them too much, you can legitimately proceed while honouring the old crew by not blatantly mimicking them. A tech guy like Wishaw's Q, a clever and independent woman like Harris' MP and a part bureaucrat part diplomat like Fiennes' M is exactly the bunch I'd expect to find in a modern MI6. As for Kinnear as Tanner, a humourless British by-the-numbers guy? Perfect.

    The fact that in SPECTRE
    we give these characters an active role to play in the climax of the movie, doesn't spoil the fun for me at all and neither does it feel "not right".
    The 1950-something Fleming would never have gone there. A 2015 Fleming, however, might have done this himself. Also, I still think they do a better job here than in one of my favourite Bond films, LTK, where old Q was put in a situation that did not suit his character one . bit! When they had M pull a McGuyver on us in TWINE, I cringed. At least our current M earns our respect on screen. And no matter how strong they started with Samantha Bond in GE, they ended with having her go dirty with VR goggles on. Clearly they didn't know what to do with her. The modern woman will gravitate more towards Harris' MP. She might not send Bond away if he opened the box of Pand007a for her, but he'd still have to work for it.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    They never should have left, one of the worst things happening to the franchise.
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