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I think people have been ready for change for a long time.
Probably, much as people who post of facebook cinema groups are more likely to gripe too; people who quite enjoyed but have no strong feelings aren't going to say anything at all. If I went on one of those groups and someone was talking about, I dunno, Captain Marvel, I doubt I'd get involved because it was fine and I barely remember it.
As you say, it's hard to get a feel for a genuine consensus. I think generally, if a film is good, people tend to have enjoyed it.
Yeah, I think that's probably closer to the truth. For most people it's just one of those Daniel Craig Bond movies, 'have I seen that one? Not sure'
The irony with this analogy is that it's the Snyder fans who use things like rotten tomatoes and boxoffice figures to justify their arguments and present as if how they personally feel about those films are representative of some broader public. I feel like once your using arbitrary internet scores to argue why a film has artistic merit then you've sort of already lost the argument. No one uses rotten tomatoes to explain why Jurassic Park or Back to the Future or The Empire Strikes Back are special because there's no need to.
I don’t see a reason why it wouldn’t be the case with NTTD. Not saying it’ll be considered the best Bond movie by the majority of your mates, but it’ll be someone’s favourite Bond movie, and I’m sure many will love it.
That’s because those films have been out for so long there’s this consensus they’re perfect. Hell, they came out at a time before RT existed. Go back and I know a portion of critics and even viewers were snooty about those films that wouldn’t be reflected in today’s RT scores, however many that would be (ie. I remember watching an old Ebert and Siskel interview where they defend Star Wars from a snooty European film critic who has this idea they’re subpar popcorn flicks). At any rate it’s possible for very famous, beloved movies to be viewed so in hindsight, often with initial underwhelming critical or audience reaction.
I get what you’re trying to say, but it’s a very flawed analogy with those films unfortunately. And as I said above I think some distance will give us more of an idea how NTTD will be viewed by Bond fans in the long run (we’re a fickle lot who have very specific opinions on what Bond should be).
Interesting thought. To be honest I don't think those things are as big for your average moviegoer as they might be for the fans, as it's the sort of thing which just happens in movies. Some of us might still be excited that LALD has some supernatural elements in it, but to most people it's just another Bond film.
Characters find long lost children; if it happened in the next Batman movie I might be mildly surprised but I don't think it would colour my opinion of Batman movies from then on. Maybe some Marvel fans hate Endgame because Iron Man dies in it, I don't know, but I think most popcorn munchers liked it in retrospect and probably even forgot that detail.
Audiences had no problems accepting 3 different iterations of Spider-Man within only a handful of years. I don't think they will have any trouble accepting a new Bond as not the guy with the daughter who died.
Yeah, if they even remember that! James Bond isn't the guy who died with the daughter, he's the guy in the tuxedo who drives an Aston Martin and parachutes off casinos. Just like, as you say, Spider Man isn't the guy whose parents were spies or something who were murdered in a plane crash while trying to keep tech secrets; he's the fella who climbs up walls in New York in lycra.
That's kinda part of what people had a problem with, too much of the former and not enough of the latter. Like you say, that's not Bond.
Or maybe they just didn't know that's what the story would be? I don't think they gave away of that in the trailers. Anyway, like you said it isn't Bond.
Whilst NTTD yes I said it not B25 has been derivative amongst Bond fans, it was a successful movie in movie circles. No matter what you want to say or analyse.
The next Bond film will be important, no one is doubting that. However as @peter has told you, don’t over analyse or read too much into your predictions. There is no pattern to follow or timeframe you can compare it too.
When the next Bond film happens, it happens. Chill out before it causes you a medical episode,
As I said, there had been four other films before that- if they didn't have a feel for what the Craig films were like by then I'd be surprised. And yet in general, the audience kept coming back.
As 007HallY says, it's perfectly fine if it wasn't to your taste, I wouldn't want to say you're wrong for not being keen on them, because you're not.
I didn't say 'it wasn't Bond'- I said it's not what the audience remember predominately about Bond, any more than they think of Bond being that guy swinging from a tree with a Tarzan scream or wearing blue towelling hotpants by a Miami pool: these things are pretty fleeting.
That’s not me trying to be snarky incidentally, and I can see this being the case with a lot of fans (if the latest Superman taught me anything it’s that some people go into these sorts of films already knowing what they think of them). But can you see what I mean here?
Talk about people putting words in others mouths, yikes!
Incidentally, I hope Bond 26 is a big swing, I think that the series is at a crossroads and needs an injection of some new ideas, we've been playing in the same ballpark of "loose cannon" agent and "the shadows", going rogue and hiding out on an island and "trust" of superiors over and over, it's about time for a fresh approach. I'm not the one with a rigid set of expectations, I want them to experiment and do their own thing. I don't know how that means I've already made my mind up exactly?
Secondly: you (and mtm) have misunderstood my point which was not that NTTD would confuse audiences who would wonder why Bond was back alive; it was me wondering whether NTTD’s (unignorable) dramatic events being completely ignored by later films would rob the film of some of its weight, or if its lack of consequence going forward will make it less controversial for fans as the series continues to chug on.
I never actually said myself that you were putting words in people’s mouths (and I did say it was a prediction 😉)
I dunno, just seems like you’re awfully invested in this one and seem very wound up about it all. I also know you went into NTTD with some preconceived ideas about your reaction to it. I could be wrong, but you seem to want this film to be something very particular, but you mainly want to like it. I get it by the way, and I’d like to enjoy this film too. But I can acknowledge it might not be to my taste in some ways, and I’ve been disappointed by films I was hyped for. I feel going into it with this idea that it has to be the best Bond film ever or be a certain way might not do it justice (I can have predictions about what it could look or be like, but obviously I won’t know until I see it).
I dunno, it’s just something I sometimes see - people making their mind up about a film before they see it. It’s just something we can all remember - it’s just a film and it’s out of our hands. Just watch and enjoy it as much as you feel when the time comes.
My reply to you wasn't about saying that audiences would be confused or not, it was just whether they would care very much about the previous film in a different continuity.
I think it'll certainly become less controversial over time, because these things always do. I imagine OHMSS was pretty controversial at the time because the guy playing Bond wasn't Connery, nowadays we're pretty used to that.
Whether the dramatic weight will go... it's an interesting question. I guess it will, because that's another thing which tends to fade with time too, and potentially finds itself outdone on the dramatic spectrum by what comes next. I remember TWINE feeling like a really big step up in terms of drama because it went where Bond hadn't been before: Bond got badly injured; MI6 was blown up; M kidnapped... plus the film itself explored dramatic avenues a Bond hadn't really gone down before, with Bond's sympathy for Electra's kidnap, and his anger and confusion at her betrayal. I actually came out of the cinema feeling a bit shaken: it was easily the most dramatic a Bond had been up until that point. But nowadays all of that feels fairly tame and par for the course and it's just another Bond film in the list. So I'd expect NTTD to go that way too. Whether the act of ignoring his death in that film will do it by itself I'm not sure because we're in that position already right now- we know the next film will cancel that out, and I don't think that spoils it. We were in that mindset before the end credits even finished with the 'JB WILL RETURN' caption, so I don't think that fact robs it of its weight just by itself. What do you think?
It's true. I think I'll likely enjoy it because it's a Bond movie, and they haven't made one I haven't enjoyed yet. I'm sure I'll have issues with it here and there because nothing's perfect, and it'll be fun chatting about those on here.
You don't see people asking how they made more Batman films after the fact that he faked his death and retired in The Dark Knight Rises.