Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,484
    Eon may get the blame, but they don’t really set release dates. That’s more their partners who distribute the film.

    Eon owns and produces Bond films.

    MGM finances and, with partners, works the P&A and distributing (release/dates) the finished product.

    (I suppose they can request dates, and they’re the mouth pieces for the IP, but really, distribution isn’t in their wheelhouse)
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited May 2022 Posts: 8,484
    @echo: you're correct that dates are established in advance and there's jokeying and posturing on the part of the studios.

    But release dates can always be changed. And they are. Every year.

    EDIT: sorry for the double post; I was answering something on a previous page.
  • Posts: 1,706
    After watching one of my all time favorite bond films in a Theater a few day ago, with an appreciative audience, many who had obviously never seen the film before, it doesn't matter to me where Bond goes from here. No matter what happens I will always have the films that made me a 007 fan in the first place.
  • Posts: 3,279
    echo wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I really wish the Broccoli family would pass it on at this point.

    I'm concerned about the next direction of the series, but I think I would be more worried if Barbara, Michael and Gregg weren't involved to be honest.
    I may have occasional doubts but they know what Bond is and what makes the series special

    Why do you feel like that @Birdleson mate?

    I agree with Birdleson. I feel the producers are stale in their decision making, and it needs new input with a fresh creative team. Throw out P&W immediately. Some of the regular team can stay on board like Kleinman, and I would welcome a return to David Arnold.

    But it needs a shake up with a clean slate. The Fleming books need revaluating, to look closer at adapting the unused material, and then after that looking towards the continuation novels, rather than endless script rewrite after rewrite by committee.

    That doesn't sound like a fresh creative team.

    Getting rid of P&W and the producers doesn't sound like a fresh creative team? What would then?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,021
    echo wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I really wish the Broccoli family would pass it on at this point.

    I'm concerned about the next direction of the series, but I think I would be more worried if Barbara, Michael and Gregg weren't involved to be honest.
    I may have occasional doubts but they know what Bond is and what makes the series special

    Why do you feel like that @Birdleson mate?

    I agree with Birdleson. I feel the producers are stale in their decision making, and it needs new input with a fresh creative team. Throw out P&W immediately. Some of the regular team can stay on board like Kleinman, and I would welcome a return to David Arnold.

    But it needs a shake up with a clean slate. The Fleming books need revaluating, to look closer at adapting the unused material, and then after that looking towards the continuation novels, rather than endless script rewrite after rewrite by committee.

    That doesn't sound like a fresh creative team.

    Getting rid of P&W and the producers doesn't sound like a fresh creative team? What would then?

    I think he was referring to your point about using Fleming leftovers and continuation novels as the basis for future films.

    If we should hire a new team of writers, let them write something completely original.
  • edited May 2022 Posts: 3,279
    echo wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I really wish the Broccoli family would pass it on at this point.

    I'm concerned about the next direction of the series, but I think I would be more worried if Barbara, Michael and Gregg weren't involved to be honest.
    I may have occasional doubts but they know what Bond is and what makes the series special

    Why do you feel like that @Birdleson mate?

    I agree with Birdleson. I feel the producers are stale in their decision making, and it needs new input with a fresh creative team. Throw out P&W immediately. Some of the regular team can stay on board like Kleinman, and I would welcome a return to David Arnold.

    But it needs a shake up with a clean slate. The Fleming books need revaluating, to look closer at adapting the unused material, and then after that looking towards the continuation novels, rather than endless script rewrite after rewrite by committee.

    That doesn't sound like a fresh creative team.

    Getting rid of P&W and the producers doesn't sound like a fresh creative team? What would then?

    I think he was referring to your point about using Fleming leftovers and continuation novels as the basis for future films.

    If we should hire a new team of writers, let them write something completely original.

    Something `completely original' is what we have had ever since Babs took over (and look how well that turned out).

    We haven't had any Fleming leftovers since 1989 (other than CR) - hence why we need a new creative team to have the balls to go back to the books, instead of trying to come up with something `completely original.'

    I'm done with the likes of invisible cars, Brofeld, the Scooby gang out in the field, Bond having kids, M getting killed, nanobots, Bond getting killed. If that's what `completely original' gives us, no thank you. Go back to the novels.
  • edited May 2022 Posts: 1,001
    I'm done with Brofeld, Bond having kids, Bond getting killed. If that's what completely original gives us, no thank you. Go back to the novels.

    I could be speaking to my own reflection.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2022 Posts: 14,935
    echo wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I really wish the Broccoli family would pass it on at this point.

    I'm concerned about the next direction of the series, but I think I would be more worried if Barbara, Michael and Gregg weren't involved to be honest.
    I may have occasional doubts but they know what Bond is and what makes the series special

    Why do you feel like that @Birdleson mate?

    I agree with Birdleson. I feel the producers are stale in their decision making, and it needs new input with a fresh creative team. Throw out P&W immediately. Some of the regular team can stay on board like Kleinman, and I would welcome a return to David Arnold.

    But it needs a shake up with a clean slate. The Fleming books need revaluating, to look closer at adapting the unused material, and then after that looking towards the continuation novels, rather than endless script rewrite after rewrite by committee.

    That doesn't sound like a fresh creative team.

    Getting rid of P&W and the producers doesn't sound like a fresh creative team? What would then?

    I think he was referring to your point about using Fleming leftovers and continuation novels as the basis for future films.

    If we should hire a new team of writers, let them write something completely original.

    Something `completely original' is what we have had ever since Babs took over (and look how well that turned out).

    Incredibly well...? Extremely popular and some of the biggest Bond films ever.
    We haven't had any Fleming leftovers since 1989 (other than CR) - hence why we need a new creative team to have the balls to go back to the books, instead of trying to come up with something `completely original.'

    Yes, if you don't count the whole film which was a book adaptation (or the other looser adaptations like DAD), they haven't touched Fleming at all :))
    I've got an idea though: they should do something with gangsters in.
  • Posts: 1,001
    I'm done with the likes of invisible cars, Brofeld, the Scooby gang out in the field, Bond having kids, M getting killed, nanobots, Bond getting killed. If that's what `completely original' gives us, no thank you. Go back to the novels.

    You missed out killing off Felix. Another inspired decision.
  • LucknFateLucknFate 007 In New York
    edited May 2022 Posts: 1,427
    If we want to go to gangsters, isn't modern day organized crime all about sex trafficking and drugs? I just can't imagine a good, realistic gangster plot that's appropriate for a proper Bond movie.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,021
    echo wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I really wish the Broccoli family would pass it on at this point.

    I'm concerned about the next direction of the series, but I think I would be more worried if Barbara, Michael and Gregg weren't involved to be honest.
    I may have occasional doubts but they know what Bond is and what makes the series special

    Why do you feel like that @Birdleson mate?

    I agree with Birdleson. I feel the producers are stale in their decision making, and it needs new input with a fresh creative team. Throw out P&W immediately. Some of the regular team can stay on board like Kleinman, and I would welcome a return to David Arnold.

    But it needs a shake up with a clean slate. The Fleming books need revaluating, to look closer at adapting the unused material, and then after that looking towards the continuation novels, rather than endless script rewrite after rewrite by committee.

    That doesn't sound like a fresh creative team.

    Getting rid of P&W and the producers doesn't sound like a fresh creative team? What would then?

    I think he was referring to your point about using Fleming leftovers and continuation novels as the basis for future films.

    If we should hire a new team of writers, let them write something completely original.

    Something `completely original' is what we have had ever since Babs took over (and look how well that turned out).

    We haven't had any Fleming leftovers since 1989 (other than CR) - hence why we need a new creative team to have the balls to go back to the books, instead of trying to come up with something `completely original.'

    I'm done with the likes of invisible cars, Brofeld, the Scooby gang out in the field, Bond having kids, M getting killed, nanobots, Bond getting killed. If that's what `completely original' gives us, no thank you. Go back to the novels.

    You might as well give up on Bond as we move further into the 21st century. Stick to the books.
  • LucknFateLucknFate 007 In New York
    Posts: 1,427
    echo wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I really wish the Broccoli family would pass it on at this point.

    I'm concerned about the next direction of the series, but I think I would be more worried if Barbara, Michael and Gregg weren't involved to be honest.
    I may have occasional doubts but they know what Bond is and what makes the series special

    Why do you feel like that @Birdleson mate?

    I agree with Birdleson. I feel the producers are stale in their decision making, and it needs new input with a fresh creative team. Throw out P&W immediately. Some of the regular team can stay on board like Kleinman, and I would welcome a return to David Arnold.

    But it needs a shake up with a clean slate. The Fleming books need revaluating, to look closer at adapting the unused material, and then after that looking towards the continuation novels, rather than endless script rewrite after rewrite by committee.

    That doesn't sound like a fresh creative team.

    Getting rid of P&W and the producers doesn't sound like a fresh creative team? What would then?

    I think he was referring to your point about using Fleming leftovers and continuation novels as the basis for future films.

    If we should hire a new team of writers, let them write something completely original.

    Something `completely original' is what we have had ever since Babs took over (and look how well that turned out).

    "Babs" has been in charge since GoldenEye and directly involved since childhood. Where would you like us to start measuring her failings, and with what argument? Critical reception? Go on, run the numbers.. Box office? OOps.

    You should just say you don't like Barbara, and blame her for everything, because you need a scapegoat to feel better about a few movies that didn't do everything to your standard. Don't try to prove a point that doesn't exist.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,935
    I'm done with the likes of invisible cars, Brofeld, the Scooby gang out in the field, Bond having kids, M getting killed, nanobots, Bond getting killed. If that's what `completely original' gives us, no thank you. Go back to the novels.

    I struggle to see what's wrong with any of those things. They weren't in the books (although some were, and some were extrapolations from them) but that seems to be the extent of the issue here.
  • JustJamesJustJames London
    Posts: 203
    Bond died in the books. (He got better…) Bond had a kid he didn’t know he had in the books. I don’t think a M died in the books. Leiter sorta kinda died, but turned out to just be maimed. Bond often had agents in the field of various kinds, Q used to get out quite a bit in the Roger Moore years if I recall.

    Huge chunks of the recent Bond films have had little unused chunks of the books in, and at the same time, earlier adaptations were in name only.

    I think all the Barbs influenced (and fully run) films have been significantly better than what came before. (She started with Goldeneye, but I think her influence really started with Dalton and TLD as she was being handed over to) They have done gangbusters critically, and at the box office, and really only DAD was much of a cock up. The production design, cinematography, character work, stunts and effects… all have steadily improved under her aegis, and not necessarily just because of the tech advances in cinema in general.

    They are also more faithful to the books, and more ‘British’ without becoming caricature, and have managed to move with the times enough to distance themselves from any valid criticism of the older films from a modern perspective.

    They’re just… better. Objectively, if you really look at them.
    It’s not the Bond I grew up with, but that’s ok, because the world moved on and so did I, so did we all. Until NTTD I was genuinely kind of against the current era, but somehow they managed to tie it all up.

    What should it do next? More character stuff, more stylish stuff, the films they should have made after QoS if they could have got some momentum going and Craig hadn’t aged as heavily. Another five or seven film arc, with good stuff in. Don’t start from an origin story, we did that, just hit the ground running.

    Or…. Old Man Bond with Brosnan.
    Or one off period piece set in the fifties, maybe pull from Horowitz.
    Or… Craig washing up amnesiac in Japan, because the only thing more shocking than the end of NTTD would be a surprise ‘just one more then’.
  • edited May 2022 Posts: 2,878
    To be fair, there's a valid criticism in the idea that BB and MGW have perhaps prioritised what they think will be 'popular' rather than fresh and interesting for a Bond film specifically. Things like the invisible car played into the emerging prevalence of CGI in blockbusters, the whole idea of Bond having a daughter/dying resembles what Avengers, Logan, Star Wars etc. did with their franchises. One can argue they were not right for their films or Bond as a film series and detracted from the viewing experience. The films also became very self-referential in the Craig era, especially when it came to Blofeld and Spectre. I think they could have benefited again from a different reinterpretation of the character/organisation rather than clinging onto superficial imagery of the past. These are not new problems, and certainly Cubby did exactly the same thing. Hell, it's not a new problem for films/franchises in general.

    Hey, I'd like to see more elements of Fleming going froward, especially when it comes to Bond as a character. I don't want a straightforward adaptation of the unused novels or whatever but just more consideration for the source material going forward. There's plenty that's interesting and unexplored that could help result in a fresh take on the character and, potentially anyway, a great film. I personally think BB/MGW are just as capable of giving this to us as Cubby was when he produced TLD and LTK.
  • Posts: 1,706
    JustJames wrote: »
    Bond died in the books. (He got better…) Bond had a kid he didn’t know he had in the books. I don’t think a M died in the books. Leiter sorta kinda died, but turned out to just be maimed. Bond often had agents in the field of various kinds, Q used to get out quite a bit in the Roger Moore years if I recall.

    Huge chunks of the recent Bond films have had little unused chunks of the books in, and at the same time, earlier adaptations were in name only.

    I think all the Barbs influenced (and fully run) films have been significantly better than what came before. (She started with Goldeneye, but I think her influence really started with Dalton and TLD as she was being handed over to) They have done gangbusters critically, and at the box office, and really only DAD was much of a cock up. The production design, cinematography, character work, stunts and effects… all have steadily improved under her aegis, and not necessarily just because of the tech advances in cinema in general.

    They are also more faithful to the books, and more ‘British’ without becoming caricature, and have managed to move with the times enough to distance themselves from any valid criticism of the older films from a modern perspective.

    They’re just… better. Objectively, if you really look at them.
    It’s not the Bond I grew up with, but that’s ok, because the world moved on and so did I, so did we all. Until NTTD I was genuinely kind of against the current era, but somehow they managed to tie it all up.

    What should it do next? More character stuff, more stylish stuff, the films they should have made after QoS if they could have got some momentum going and Craig hadn’t aged as heavily. Another five or seven film arc, with good stuff in. Don’t start from an origin story, we did that, just hit the ground running.

    Or…. Old Man Bond with Brosnan.
    Or one off period piece set in the fifties, maybe pull from Horowitz.
    Or… Craig washing up amnesiac in Japan, because the only thing more shocking than the end of NTTD would be a surprise ‘just one more then’.

    True, the world has moved on and so has Bond. I realize that things have to evolve or become irrelevant to the general movie going audience. Fortunately, we all have the films that made us Bond fans in the first place while enjoying where ever the 007 ride takes us next. That said I'm glad the Brofeld scenario is finally behind us.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    Posts: 2,161
    Have any of our younger members come aboard specifically due to a first Bond experience with SP or NTTD? I'd be interested to know.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,935
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair, there's a valid criticism in the idea that BB and MGW have perhaps prioritised what they think will be 'popular' rather than fresh and interesting for a Bond film specifically.

    I think that would be a curious criticism for films which are supposed to appeal to mass audiences though. And also they took the boldest decision so far in the entire series to ditch (the still very successful) Brosnan and reboot the series, both in continuity and tonally, with CR.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,021
    I do think it’s BS to give MGW a pass and BB all the criticism. He is in fact the guy that came up with the idea of making Blofeld a foster brother. We can criticize BB for a lot that’s happened since 1995, but let’s not pretend MGW is untouchable just because he co-wrote a few films in the 80s, which is an incredibly mixed bag of a decade. I know AVTAK supposedly has die hard fans. And I say that as a fan of OCTOPUSSY.
  • Posts: 2,878
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair, there's a valid criticism in the idea that BB and MGW have perhaps prioritised what they think will be 'popular' rather than fresh and interesting for a Bond film specifically.

    I think that would be a curious criticism for films which are supposed to appeal to mass audiences though. And also they took the boldest decision so far in the entire series to ditch (the still very successful) Brosnan and reboot the series, both in continuity and tonally, with CR.

    It's a valid one if you don't feel that those creative choices work in the context of the story they're telling. Even if you don't believe some of these decisions were made because of the success of other films/for more commercial and even critical appeal you can still criticise them if you feel they don't work. Bond's death in NTTD is a big one. A lot of viewers in my experience simply don't seem to find it even works emotionally. I get it.

    I mean, one can argue that Batman Begins successfully rebooted the Batman series in this way before CR and even prior to that there were planned reboots of other franchises. I mean, yes it was a 'risk' of sorts, as is every Bond film which changes the tone of the prior film, but it's one which had a precedent before it and a hint that this was something audiences wanted. That's how Producers work in my experience. But again, whether or not you believe that's the case or if you felt CR was right for the series is another matter.

    Bond films will always have to appeal to mass audiences though and will always have an element of trend following. Again, the main thing is if you think find the story these films are telling work, and it's fair to say not all of the story elements of the Craig era have gone down well for viewers. But hey, I still think on the whole the Producers have done well and if we're to get a truly great Bond film going forward I think BB and MGW will be the ones to helm it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2022 Posts: 14,935
    I do think it’s BS to give MGW a pass and BB all the criticism. He is in fact the guy that came up with the idea of making Blofeld a foster brother. We can criticize BB for a lot that’s happened since 1995, but let’s not pretend MGW is untouchable just because he co-wrote a few films in the 80s, which is an incredibly mixed bag of a decade. I know AVTAK supposedly has die hard fans. And I say that as a fan of OCTOPUSSY.

    Plus of course it was his idea to reboot to a young Bond, which he wanted to do in '87.
    I think he is good though, I like the 80s; and although I'm not a massive fan of the film, I do think LTK has one of the strongest storylines of any of the Bond films - in terms of everything leading logically to the next event, characters have proper motivations and everything has repercussions. Even the action scenes have an impact on the whole story: waterskiing behind a plane is great fun, but also the whole film pivots around that scene.
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair, there's a valid criticism in the idea that BB and MGW have perhaps prioritised what they think will be 'popular' rather than fresh and interesting for a Bond film specifically.

    I think that would be a curious criticism for films which are supposed to appeal to mass audiences though. And also they took the boldest decision so far in the entire series to ditch (the still very successful) Brosnan and reboot the series, both in continuity and tonally, with CR.

    It's a valid one if you don't feel that those creative choices work in the context of the story they're telling. Even if you don't believe some of these decisions were made because of the success of other films/for more commercial and even critical appeal you can still criticise them if you feel they don't work. Bond's death in NTTD is a big one. A lot of viewers in my experience simply don't seem to find it even works emotionally. I get it.

    I don't think so, CR does remain a fresh and interesting approach for a Bond film, even in retrospect.
    Personally I don't understand how folks can find Bond's death doesn't work emotionally- I don't love NTTD but the whole film is moving towards that moment and it's perfectly set up.

    007HallY wrote: »
    I mean, one can argue that Batman Begins successfully rebooted the Batman series in this way before CR and even prior to that there were planned reboots of other franchises. I mean, yes it was a 'risk' of sorts, as is every Bond film which changes the tone of the prior film, but it's one which had a precedent before it and a hint that this was something audiences wanted. That's how Producers work in my experience. But again, whether or not you believe that's the case or if you felt CR was right for the series is another matter.

    I find this all oddly reductive: CR clearly was a massive hit, reinvigorated Bond and is near the top of the list of most peoples' 007 film rankings. They'd been working on a rebooted version of CR from 2004, Batman Begins was only released in 2005. Sure, they might have heard about it, but they were well on their way before it was released.
    It was an unnecessary risk for the Bond films (DAD was a massive hit); it wasn't a movie unlike anyone had ever seen, no; but is anyone really expecting that from a Bond movie? These are huge mass audience blockbusters, I'm not sure what you're expecting of them.
    007HallY wrote: »
    Bond films will always have to appeal to mass audiences though and will always have an element of trend following. Again, the main thing is if you think find the story these films are telling work, and it's fair to say not all of the story elements of the Craig era have gone down well for viewers. But hey, I still think on the whole the Producers have done well and if we're to get a truly great Bond film going forward I think BB and MGW will be the ones to helm it.

    Fair enough, I agree there.
  • Posts: 1,001
    JustJames wrote: »
    Bond died in the books. (He got better…) Bond had a kid he didn’t know he had in the books. I don’t think a M died in the books. Leiter sorta kinda died, but turned out to just be maimed.

    We never knew if the kid was even born, and Bond certainly didn't die in the books, ever.

    And if you consider people who have been maimed as 'sorta kinda dead', I'd suggest a career in trauma therapy wouldn't be a wise move for you, (ha ha!).
  • edited May 2022 Posts: 2,878
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be fair, there's a valid criticism in the idea that BB and MGW have perhaps prioritised what they think will be 'popular' rather than fresh and interesting for a Bond film specifically.

    I think that would be a curious criticism for films which are supposed to appeal to mass audiences though. And also they took the boldest decision so far in the entire series to ditch (the still very successful) Brosnan and reboot the series, both in continuity and tonally, with CR.

    It's a valid one if you don't feel that those creative choices work in the context of the story they're telling. Even if you don't believe some of these decisions were made because of the success of other films/for more commercial and even critical appeal you can still criticise them if you feel they don't work. Bond's death in NTTD is a big one. A lot of viewers in my experience simply don't seem to find it even works emotionally. I get it.

    I don't think so, CR does remain a fresh and interesting approach for a Bond film, even in retrospect.
    Personally I don't understand how folks can find Bond's death doesn't work emotionally- I don't love NTTD but the whole film is moving towards that moment and it's perfectly set up.

    Yeah, there's a lot that feels fresh in CR. Like I said the Craig era has had its highs and lows for me and clearly for others.

    Bond's death never worked for me emotionally if I'm honest. I dunno, there are probably people who have thought about and rewatched NTTD much more than me. Calvin Dyson had some good thoughts about it in his video. A lot of it boils down to the individual viewer's ability to truly believe the information the film is giving you about nanobots and tramistting them in the lead up to the death, and indeed be invested in the final act of the film. Things like Safin waxing lyrical at the end for me is cringey and takes me out of the moment, a part of me always thinks in the back of my head 'why's Bond being so daft? Just get off the island and have Q-Branch adapt their EMP watch to nuke those nanobots from your system'. I'm not saying the film doesn't work for a lot of people, it does. But it's telling that it can be hit or miss with viewers. It's a shame because I want to like NTTD more than I do, and there's a lot in it that I enjoy. It's just the ending is such a bum note for me.

    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I mean, one can argue that Batman Begins successfully rebooted the Batman series in this way before CR and even prior to that there were planned reboots of other franchises. I mean, yes it was a 'risk' of sorts, as is every Bond film which changes the tone of the prior film, but it's one which had a precedent before it and a hint that this was something audiences wanted. That's how Producers work in my experience. But again, whether or not you believe that's the case or if you felt CR was right for the series is another matter.

    I find this all oddly reductive: CR clearly was a massive hit, reinvigorated Bond and is near the top of the list of most peoples' 007 film rankings. They'd been working on a rebooted version of CR from 2004, Batman Begins was only released in 2005. Sure, they might have heard about it, but they were well on their way before it was released.
    It was an unnecessary risk for the Bond films (DAD was a massive hit); it wasn't a movie unlike anyone had ever seen, no; but is anyone really expecting that from a Bond movie? These are huge mass audience blockbusters, I'm not sure what you're expecting of them.

    Weren't they originally planning on Brosnan returning for a CR adaptation in the early stages? (not the one Tarrantino suggested, but early drafts). I'm not 100% sure but to me that suggests it was the story they were keen to adapt after getting the rights back and they leant into the whole 'young/rebooted Bond' after Brosnan left and word had gotten around that Batman was working on rebooting its own franchise in a similar way and at that time had Darren Aronfosky working on the script. I think by the time they went into production they had plenty of assurance with BB that the direction they were going in wouldn't be a major risk and audiences would accept the premise. Anyway, like I said CR had a lot that was fresh for Bond anyway and I'm not criticising them for rebooting the franchise (heck, I've said many times I hope the concept of Bond 26 is a reboot about a Bond in his early years/learning to navigate his role as 007 in a similar way to The Batman). Perhaps I shouldn't have said anything about that particular point as among my problems with the Craig era and even CR (the sinking house and some of the action scenes always felt to me just a bit overblown and outright jarred with the 'down to earth' approach, Bond breaking into M's flat and going 'rogue' never worked for me etc.) I really don't have a problem with the reboot concept.
  • Posts: 1
    I don't fancy a bet on anyone as the next 007 let alone someone from the nineteenth century (ie Bridgerton or similar) even though the James Bond line of actors will no doubt run into the 22nd Century. It's a shame other espionage series don’t have similar legacies.

    I must admit that although I have seen and read most of the Bond (and John Le Carré) films and books I prefer the matter of fact raw noir espionage as portrayed in the Harry Palmer films based on Deighton's novels or even the dark satanic humour of Slow Horses. The good news is there is still hope for a Harry Palmer legacy but probably not via the “other Joe Cole”.

    There is a series of intriguing and enigmatic fact based spy novels called The Burlington Files in which the protagonist (Edward Burlington aka Bill Fairclough, a real spy) has been likened to a posh and sophisticated Harry Palmer. What a life he must have led! There are six novels. The first (Beyond Enkription) only covers his life and time in 1974 with MI6 and the CIA in the UK, USA and Caribbean and it is a huge action packed thriller in its own right.

    It's so real it made me wonder why bother reading espionage fiction when facts are so much more exciting. Len Deighton and Mick Herron could be forgiven for thinking they co-wrote this noir narrative. Atmospherically it's reminiscent of Ted Lewis' Get Carter of Michael Caine fame.

    Let's hope one day soon a rare breed of film producer who doesn't rely on remakes or rehashes, makes brand new films based on The Burlington Files series. If they do they'll only have themselves to blame if they don't go down in film history as classic espionage thrillers.
  • Posts: 3,279
    mtm wrote: »
    I've got an idea though: they should do something with gangsters in.
    Now you're talking!

    ;)
  • Posts: 3,279
    LucknFate wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I really wish the Broccoli family would pass it on at this point.

    I'm concerned about the next direction of the series, but I think I would be more worried if Barbara, Michael and Gregg weren't involved to be honest.
    I may have occasional doubts but they know what Bond is and what makes the series special

    Why do you feel like that @Birdleson mate?

    I agree with Birdleson. I feel the producers are stale in their decision making, and it needs new input with a fresh creative team. Throw out P&W immediately. Some of the regular team can stay on board like Kleinman, and I would welcome a return to David Arnold.

    But it needs a shake up with a clean slate. The Fleming books need revaluating, to look closer at adapting the unused material, and then after that looking towards the continuation novels, rather than endless script rewrite after rewrite by committee.

    That doesn't sound like a fresh creative team.

    Getting rid of P&W and the producers doesn't sound like a fresh creative team? What would then?

    I think he was referring to your point about using Fleming leftovers and continuation novels as the basis for future films.

    If we should hire a new team of writers, let them write something completely original.

    Something `completely original' is what we have had ever since Babs took over (and look how well that turned out).

    "Babs" has been in charge since GoldenEye and directly involved since childhood. Where would you like us to start measuring her failings, and with what argument? Critical reception? Go on, run the numbers.. Box office? OOps.

    You should just say you don't like Barbara, and blame her for everything, because you need a scapegoat to feel better about a few movies that didn't do everything to your standard. Don't try to prove a point that doesn't exist.

    I'm going by the only critic that matters - me! ;)
  • edited May 2022 Posts: 3,279
    echo wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I really wish the Broccoli family would pass it on at this point.

    I'm concerned about the next direction of the series, but I think I would be more worried if Barbara, Michael and Gregg weren't involved to be honest.
    I may have occasional doubts but they know what Bond is and what makes the series special

    Why do you feel like that @Birdleson mate?

    I agree with Birdleson. I feel the producers are stale in their decision making, and it needs new input with a fresh creative team. Throw out P&W immediately. Some of the regular team can stay on board like Kleinman, and I would welcome a return to David Arnold.

    But it needs a shake up with a clean slate. The Fleming books need revaluating, to look closer at adapting the unused material, and then after that looking towards the continuation novels, rather than endless script rewrite after rewrite by committee.

    That doesn't sound like a fresh creative team.

    Getting rid of P&W and the producers doesn't sound like a fresh creative team? What would then?

    I think he was referring to your point about using Fleming leftovers and continuation novels as the basis for future films.

    If we should hire a new team of writers, let them write something completely original.

    Something `completely original' is what we have had ever since Babs took over (and look how well that turned out).

    We haven't had any Fleming leftovers since 1989 (other than CR) - hence why we need a new creative team to have the balls to go back to the books, instead of trying to come up with something `completely original.'

    I'm done with the likes of invisible cars, Brofeld, the Scooby gang out in the field, Bond having kids, M getting killed, nanobots, Bond getting killed. If that's what `completely original' gives us, no thank you. Go back to the novels.

    You might as well give up on Bond as we move further into the 21st century. Stick to the books.

    CR gave us a modern take on a Fleming novel (the very first Fleming novel), and I don't think many will claim that film to be stuck in the past.

    So bringing Fleming into the 21st century can be done. It ain't rocket science.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited May 2022 Posts: 3,390
    I've edited my post.
    I want to see a Bond film where it kind of balances the humor/camp, grittiness, drama, romance and sex.
    That would be a thrill ride of a Bond film for me, I laugh, cry, feel for the romance, and enjoy the action.
    The only Bond films that were balanced it in my opinion was GF, OHMSS, FYEO, both of Dalton films, yes LTK has also some humor (think of Q disguised as a street sweeper with a gadget in his broomstick, an exploding toothpaste?), And GE.
    But none of the Bond films ever get that balance.
    Some relied on pure camp, pure grittiness.

    My first post regarding the plot of spam bots has been moved to the Bond 26 ideas thread.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 650
    The further we move away from the world of Fleming's lifetime, the less sense James Bond is going to make as a character, and the more drastic alterations they're going to make to fit him into our current world. I'm not sure I'd want that. I'd rather they just stop making these movies, maybe after giving a formal apology for the post-CR Craig era.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,484
    @slide_99 ... Who is apologizing to who? And why?

    The arrogant entitlement of a ticked-off fan-boy...
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