Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison Of Belief

edited April 2015 in General Movies & TV Posts: 12,837
I know that discussing religion is frowned upon on here but, even though what they believe is no more implausible than other religions, I don't consider Scientology an actual religion (more a terrifying cult), and I think this is something that deserves discussion.

I'll start of by saying that this documentary hasn't actually been shown in the UK, even though Sky Atlantic had a hand in making it, and last time I checked they were saying there was "no news yet" on whether they'd be able to show it or not, which is a shame imo.

Anyway, I watched it online last night because it's something I'm interested in (not in the sense that I'm interested in joining, f**k no, I'm interested out of curiosity) and I thought it was really good. I mean I knew that they blackmailed people and all the rest of it but the physical and mental abuse they give out, which I found out from watching this doc, is disgusting and also pretty scary (because they get away with it).

John Travolta (who the doc claims is one of many Scientology have dirt on, to use for blackmail, after secretly recording interviews when telling him they wouldn't) has addressed it and has said that he's never going to watch it (exactly what he would say) but tbh I'm more interested in what Tom Cruise has to say, he's keeping quiet at the moment which is wise given what the doc says about him but soon he'll be promoting Mission Impossible 5 (a major blockbuster, so probably lots of big media appearances) and given the allegations the documentary makes against him, he'll have to address it, and I'm interested in what he'll have to say about it. I mean he's always seemed mental but I've always assumed that he was just a publicity figure for scientology that was kept in the dark about a lot of the stuff they did, and I've always managed to separate his films and his personal life but after watching this, idk. I've lost pretty much any respect I had for him.

I really recommend watching this. Has anyone else seen it?
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Comments

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited April 2015 Posts: 18,236
    I've not seen it but anything that seeks to denigrate this poisonous cult gets approval from me. Oh, I must go. I hear a knock at the door. Some men to see me. >:)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,788
    Scientology, Christianity, Islam, thunder worship... all the same to me. There's a lot of nonsense out there to choose from.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,788
    It's just the technological flipside of the stone-age hamfisted techniques of the more ancient theistic hogwash.
    Glad I was raised by Shaolin monks... \m/
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Scientology, Christianity, Islam, thunder worship... all the same to me. There's a lot of nonsense out there to choose from.

    The very words I live by!
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I might give this a watch given the opportunity, out of pure interest. Can't tell how objective it is, as I don't know who's producing it, but it sounds interesting nonetheless.

    I still don't stand by those that refer to Scientologists as a bunch of nutters, though. Their religion is just as wacky as all the others and their followers haven't sparked wars or genocides in the name of their beliefs like most mainstream religions, so at least for that, they have my respect.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,788
    I still don't stand by those that refer to Scientologists as a bunch of nutters, though. Their religion is just as wacky as all the others and their followers haven't sparked wars or genocides in the name of their beliefs like most mainstream religions, so at least for that, they have my respect.
    There IS that. Okay. I concur. For now.

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    L. Ron Hubbard advised George Lucas to create a religion out of his Star Wars mythology, as it had worked so well for Hubbard in the 50s, adapting his own sci-fi books. Lucas declined, but what if he didn t ? Do you think he would have succeeded in gaining a following, the way Hubbard did?
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited April 2015 Posts: 12,480
    I have read some things about Scientology, enough to make me sick. I may watch it; I don't need to in order to be convinced it is a sad, sick cult.

    And no, I do not lump it in with other religions. And I'll add that I have zero respect for them. None.

  • Posts: 1,552
    L. Ron Hubbard advised George Lucas to create a religion out of his Star Wars mythology, as it had worked so well for Hubbard in the 50s, adapting his own sci-fi books. Lucas declined, but what if he didn t ? Do you think he would have succeeded in gaining a following, the way Hubbard did?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9737886/Jedi-religion-most-popular-alternative-faith.html
    Today's Census figures show that 176,632 people in England and Wales identify themselves as Jedi Knights, making it the most popular faith in the "Other Religions" category on the Census and the seventh most popular faith overall.
    ;)
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    I have a feeling Tom C. will stonewall like always. "It's my religion, and people are entitled to their own beliefs." Heck, when he got married to Katie, he was saying you could be a Christian AND a Scientologist at the same time; I bet her family nearly died a thousand deaths worrying about her. So thankful she got out. Nichole too, although her situation was definitely different.
  • Posts: 4,602
    The big religions are very happy for people to poke fun at the smaller religions/cults as it diverts attention. Type Archbishop of Canterbury into google and you will see pictures of a man in his sixties wearing some form of dress/gown with a gold shepherds crook and a gold pointed hat. They are all as bonkers as each other. Some we are used to..some we are not.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I had to check if there was a sith cult as well. You can register here:

    http://sithacademy.com/
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    I'm happy to pitch into this thread and call Scientologists nutters just as long as someone doesn't complain about me starting a thread calling all other religions nutters too, but somehow I feel that this would get closed down pretty quickly?

    So leave the Scientologists alone 'they're entitled to their beliefs' aren't they? And ok I'm sure there are a few bad apples but no doubt 'the majority are peace loving'.

    Sounds like an interesting film though so I'll certainly try and check it out.
  • edited April 2015 Posts: 12,837
    and their followers haven't sparked wars or genocides in the name of their beliefs like most mainstream religions, so at least for that, they have my respect.

    No, they just physically and mentally abuse people, ruin peoples lives if they try to leaves, seperate people from family, put people in prison camps, etc. Plus most mainstream religions don't charge you, unlike Scientologists.

    Like I said, it's not what they believe that's the problem, it's certainly no more implausible than other religions. The problem is the horrible stuff they do, which unlike other religions in this day and age, is actually carried out by the church itself.
    I'm happy to pitch into this thread and call Scientologists nutters just as long as someone doesn't complain about me starting a thread calling all other religions nutters too, but somehow I feel that this would get closed down pretty quickly?

    So leave the Scientologists alone 'they're entitled to their beliefs' aren't they? And ok I'm sure there are a few bad apples but no doubt 'the majority are peace loving'.

    Sounds like an interesting film though so I'll certainly try and check it out.

    I think the thing is though, while religion is the cause of lots of atrocities (eg- ISIS currently), in the 21st century at least, times have changed and it is extremists that carry out these atrocities, the actual people of power in those religions are against them. I mean the main muslim governing body isn't helping ISIS round up recruits, they're not telling people in Mosque's to go to Syria and fight (although I guess it is what they teach their that inspires people to). In fact the majority of muslims have criticised ISIS and made it clear that the Muslim community doesn't support them. In Scientology it's not just extremists. The church itself is responsible for all the horrible stuff they do and the fact that they manage to get away with all this is pretty scary imo. At least action is being taken to stop ISIS. Scientology does terrible things on Western soil and gets away with it.

    It was an interesting film yeah. I was vaguely aware of the sort of thing Scientologists did but this documentary really shed more light on it for me.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Scientology, Christianity, Islam, thunder worship... all the same to me. There's a lot of nonsense out there to choose from.

    The very words I live by!

    Yeah, it's not really the same though, even though they are all equally unbelieveable (although I can see why some people choose to believe and I don't begrudge them that right) and have all caused a lot of problems. You should really watch the film.

    I think even if you do think Scientology is no worse than other religions, it still doesn't excuse the terrible stuff they do. Next time there's an Islamic terrorist attack, or next time some Christian extremists protest at an abortion clinic or something, will you say "yeah, but Islam or Christianity is no real different to other religions". It's not what they believe that's the problem, it's what they do, and in Scientology's case I think it's worse because the church itself is behind the terrible things they do.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited April 2015 Posts: 18,236
    L. Ron Hubbard advised George Lucas to create a religion out of his Star Wars mythology, as it had worked so well for Hubbard in the 50s, adapting his own sci-fi books. Lucas declined, but what if he didn t ? Do you think he would have succeeded in gaining a following, the way Hubbard did?

    I had a Law lecturer once say during a lecture that he was most displeased that "Jedi" was not a religion one could tick on the 2001 UK Census Form!
  • edited April 2015 Posts: 12,837
    I have a feeling Tom C. will stonewall like always. "It's my religion, and people are entitled to their own beliefs." Heck, when he got married to Katie, he was saying you could be a Christian AND a Scientologist at the same time; I bet her family nearly died a thousand deaths worrying about her. So thankful she got out. Nichole too, although her situation was definitely different.

    Tom Cruise got a lot more vocal about scientology once he'd split up with Nicole Kidman and there was apparently a reason for this.

    Apparently the leader, David Miscavige, didn't like Nicole (one reason was her dad was a psychologist, and scientologists don't like psychologists). So they tried to split them up, telling him she wasn't good for him and all this. Tom Cruise then requested that Miscavige get someone to tap her phone. They also apparently turned their (Cruise and Kidman's) children against her.

    There's also another story in the doc about how scientology tried to find a more suitable girlfriend for Cruise, picking a young scientologist who joined because of the humanitarian stuff they did, giving her a big makeover and all this to make her appealing for him, and also moving her into a center (separating her from her family) but he broke up with her after getting really pissed off because he thought she wasn't respectful enough when she met Miscavige (she had a headache so she was a bit off the day she met him). They then went round to her flat afterwards and destroyed any evidence of her relationship. Later she ended up doing stuff such as cleaning public toilets with a toothbrush as a punishment because she confided in her friend (feeling pretty shitty after the break up), who told the higher ups. Fortunately she's managed to get away from the church now and has had a pretty successful acting career (she's been in Homeland and other shows and films).

    Katie Holmes seems to have pretty much sole custody of their daughter now, thank god. She had a really lucky escape. I was really looking forward to Mission Impossible 5 but I think for me now, Tom Cruise might be one of those unfortunate cases where I just can't separate the actors personal life from the films they make enough to properly enjoy them.
  • edited April 2015 Posts: 12,837
    So because of what I posted above, I think Cruise may find it hard to just stonewall, and it won't really help him. I think given what the doc says about him, he'll have to address it somehow. Like I said, I'm interested in the Mission Impossible 5 promo tour now, because I think he's bound to be asked about this at some point or another.

    It was on HBO in America (because they produced it, and it was also shown at Sundance iirc) for those in the US who are interested in watching it. I dunno if there's some sort of HBO equivalent to BBC iplayer and 4OD that you could use. It's easy enough to find online though. Still think it's a great shame that Sky might not be able to show it in the UK even though they helped produce it. I think this film deserves a lot of publicity to make sure that those who don't already know find out what Scientology really is: an evil, poisonous cult.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,788
    Gee, Scientology is very upset;
    They never got respect like every cult oughta get.
    It's not like they're Sith Lords,
    They're misunderstood.
    Deep down inside them there is good!


    ;)
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited April 2015 Posts: 28,694
    Does this documentary actually have evidence of all these claims they're making beyond little witness interviews, because so far it sounds like a bunch of rubbish.

    On the Tom Cruise side of things, this all reeks of more of the same old slanderous libel you'd get on any gossip rag in the west. Any chance the producers of this "documentary" named the National Inquirer or People Magazine as sources of information? Oops, here I am defending Tom again, the audacity of me. Scientologists must've gotten to me. I'm brainwashed. Error error error.
  • Posts: 7,507
    A scary thing about scientology is that we don't know what they believe. Any non believer can read the Bible, the Quran and other religious texts and make their mind up about them. With scientology you have to be a member, and, more importantly, pay huge amounts of money to go through the steps of learning the "big truth". That really sets scientology apart from other religions. How do you mock or put into question a belief, when you don't know what it is about?
  • Posts: 15,051
    A religion is a cult that made it. So right now Scientology is not quite a religion, but I certainly don't want it to become one. They are doing enough evil as it is.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    O'Brady, there are plenty of articles, books, personal accounts to be found regarding the sick and evil things Scientologists do, not merely just in this documentary. So there is ample information available from other sources. The weight of evidence keeps growing. This doc. film (which I have not seen) is just one.
  • Posts: 12,837
    Does this documentary actually have evidence of all these claims they're beyond little witness interviews, because so far it sounds like a bunch of rubbish.

    On the Tom Cruise side of things, this all reeks of more of the same old slanderous libel you'd get on any gossip rag in the west. Any chance the producers of this "documentary" named the National Inquirer or People Magazine as sources of information? Oops, her I am defending Tom again, the audacity of me. Scientologists must've gotten to me. I'm brainwashed. Error error error.

    They're not "little" witness interviews, they're interviews with former scientologists. The guy who tapped Kidmans phone spoke to them. There are tons of witness accounts all with the same sort of stories about scientology. You're obviously a Tom Cruise fan, I like some of his films too, but I think it's a pretty immature and fanboyish to blindly dismiss the documentary as tabloid level BS (without actually watching it) just because it portrays someone you like in a negative light.

    Believe what you like but just because you like the guys movies, it doesn't mean he can do no wrong. Funnily enough though you mention the national inquirer. I've never heard of them before but apparently they did conduct an interesting interview with John Travolta's nephew.

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/showbiz/561886/John-Travolta-Scientology-nephew-drugs

    There are loads of first hand accounts telling stories like this. In that article there are also some good quotes there from CR writer Paul Haggis, another former scientologist, who now thinks of them as a cult. So no, it's not a bunch of rubbish and there's tons of evidence, stories, interviews, etc, proving that.
    jobo wrote: »
    A scary thing about scientology is that we don't know what they believe. Any non believer can read the Bible, the Quran and other religious texts and make their mind up about them. With scientology you have to be a member, and, more importantly, pay huge amounts of money to go through the steps of learning the "big truth". That really sets scientology apart from other religions. How do you mock or put into question a belief, when you don't know what it is about?

    And that's another reason that the whole "it's no worse than other religions" argument doesn't work imo. It's a cult that drains people of their money but uses the pretense of being a religion to avoid being taxed as a business.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @thelivingroyale, my comment about the National Inquirer was meant as a negative criticism, not a positive one. They're the staple gossip rag of the US, feeding nothing but sensational BS about anyone and anything. This is why the documentary has me so worried: I want to see real evidence, not slanderous lying.
    jobo wrote: »
    A scary thing about scientology is that we don't know what they believe. Any non believer can read the Bible, the Quran and other religious texts and make their mind up about them. With scientology you have to be a member, and, more importantly, pay huge amounts of money to go through the steps of learning the "big truth". That really sets scientology apart from other religions. How do you mock or put into question a belief, when you don't know what it is about?

    And that's another reason that the whole "it's no worse than other religions" argument doesn't work imo. It's a cult that drains people of their money but uses the pretense of being a religion to avoid being taxed as a business.

    I'd say other religions have done the whole money scam better than Scientology, so much so that they should really take notes. Tell people that they'll be heading to hell to burn eternally if they step out of line and they'll pay you anything to redeem their so-called sins. Not to mention all the other people that donate thousands to churches annually, punching more and more wads of cash into that fright machine.
  • edited April 2015 Posts: 12,837
    But there's a difference between asking for (not forcing people to give) donations once they've already joined your religion, and forcing them to pay money to even find out a lot of your religions teachings. Yeah if I go to a Christian Church they'll probably send someone round with a basket asking for donations but I don't have to give them anything, and if I was religious I wouldn't need to pay a ridiculous amount of money just to read the bible or the quran.

    I do agree on the whole "burn in hell" thing though. I understand that religion is a great comfort to some people and it does have positive repercussions as well as negative ones, but these teachings are thousands of years old. They're outdated. Telling someone who's gay for example that it's a sin and they'll go to hell, or even worse stoning them for it like Muslims do in some places, is sick.

    My adoptive mum for example is Catholic, not very religious, but she goes to church at Easter and she believes in God and Jesus and everything. But she doesn't have a problem with gay people, or abortion, or sex before marriage, or contraception, etc. She doesn't let her religion take away control her life or take away from her common sense or her basic human decency. She realizes that the bible was written thousands of years ago in a time that's very different to todays society and that a lot of its teachings are massively outdated and actually pretty horrible (saying being gay is wrong) and that some of it is just plain scientifically wrong (eg-Genesis, complete bollocks, there's proof that evolution is a fact).

    I think that's the example all religious people should follow. By all means believe in a higher power if it offers comfort to you but don't blindly follow religion no matter what and recognize that your religion is based on teachings from thousands of years ago which means a lot of it will have since been proven wrong.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited April 2015 Posts: 12,480
    All I can say is you can do your own basic research and you will see there are many accounts, former members, eyewitnesses, etc. This is not just one "conspiracy against Scientology" or just people out to muck them or Tom or anybody famous. There are serious concerns, deep worries, lots of reports of their abuse. For many years now.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,788
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    A religion is a cult that made it.
    That's all that need be said. Perfect.
    That's religiously & culturally insensitive!!
    I am therefore forced to agree.
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    If anyone doubts the accounts of former scientologists (I guess they find the PR men for Scientology more convincing) they can look into project Snow White. That's not a rumor. That was an organized attempt to infiltrate and spy on the US government in order to punish enemies of Scientology.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I once took a test, as I had an hour to kill waiting for a train. I answered a whole bunch of funny questions on a formula, and after a while I was told that I was in severe need of a course. So sorry I declined. I could have saved myself years of being unclear.
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