Music in SPECTRE

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  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    0iker0 wrote: »
    However, I did like more Skyfall than The Living Daylights

    Music is certainly down to taste, because from where I'm listening TLD shits on SF from a gargantuan height.
  • edited July 2015 Posts: 5,767
    Bond without Barry is like Star Wars without Williams, Man With No Name without Morricone, Pink Panther without Mancini, MI without Schifrin, Sleeping Beauty without Tchaikovsky, Jailhouse Rock without Elvis.
    You wanna tell me this ain´t no good?





    @Murdock TND sounded like Arnold really imitated Barry,maybe he was given the order to do that after GE's soundtrack. However I must say I love his work on DAD, CR and QOS. I was probably too harsh but Arnold is the one composer who tried the most to imitate Barry. Hamlish, Conti, Martin, Serra and Kamen all had their own distinct sound. Not saying Arnold doesn't but to me he seems to be trying to respect the Bond sound Barry created.
    I don´t know where all this imitation talk comes from. Arnold mixed Barry-elements, pop music and techno sounds. That´s not at all the same as copying or ripping off or imitating Barry, not at all. I´m not saying he´s the perfect composer, but within his context, he makes a lot of sense. If you refer to Arnold sounding like another composer, you have to throw in more names than Barry´s, because clearly a lot of Arnold´s music is almost as much inspired by Williams and perhaps some others as it is by Barry.
    Anyway, to stay on topic, I find that most negative things that were said about Arnold´s work were surpassed by Newman´s SF score. I don´t mean to say that it was bad, but as far as blandness and generic action cues are concerned, Arnold clearly doesn´t reach Newman´s level.



  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Arnold's imitation of Barry is why most people who appreciate/tolerate his work on Bond actually do so. There are few (but certainly some) who care for his techno or pop influences imho.

    Again, it amazes me how there can be so negativity for Newman on the basis of 1 score. Arnold had 5 chances to screw up and in my view did so more times than not (his last 2 hit the spot more due to Barry influences rather than his own).
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Newman gets a lot of flack because (1) his SF score was subpar overall for a 50 year anniversary movie (2) he has the talent and has a good body of work behibd him before boarding Bond (3)was then given a bloody Oscar nomination for his unimpressive effort just because of his family name.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,328
    A lot of other composers had one shot too. But at least they put out something memorable.
  • Posts: 154
    John Barry's contributions to the Bond series are unquestionable. As far as scores go, I believe a good score is one can stand on its own apart from the film (otherwise it's just a beat by beat mimick of the visuals) and draws us to listen to it again and again. I think Martin, Hamlish and even Conti succeeded (at varying degrees) for their time. And I personally love most of what Arnold did. The Bond theme is one of the most powerful, driving themes in music history. To lose that is a shame. Okay, I understood not using it (much) in CR and QoS -- Bond wasn't quite the 007 we know yet. But now he is. I don't want more mood music. I want a tapestry of themes (Bond theme, title theme, Swann theme, location flavor, etc.) that pull together into a coherent and captivating score. I think Newman has it in him, and clearly he is talented. Anything less will be a disappointment.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,328
    bondjames wrote: »
    (I mentioned Night at the Opera and African Rundown before). Those tracks are definitely creatively aping the Barry sound, and very consciously.

    What Barry track does African Rundown sound like? In all of Barry's work, I've never heard anything that sounded like African Rundown.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Neither have I.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited July 2015 Posts: 23,883
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Newman gets a lot of flack because (1) his SF score was subpar overall for a 50 year anniversary movie (2) he has the talent and has a good body of work behibd him before boarding Bond (3)was then given a bloody Oscar nomination for his unimpressive effort just because of his family name.

    I found his SF score to be refreshingly different after Arnold's 11 year run, and I appreciated it. It was far from perfect, and I expect him to do better with SP, but I thought it was an excellent first crack at Bond. I endured Arnold, as I endured Brosnan, and like the latter, I am happy we've moved on.

    I couldn't care less if he received an Oscar nomination or not. That is not relevant to me. The travesty is that Barry did not receive one for each of his scores.

    Knock Newman all you want.....in comparison to Barry. In that comparative sphere, he is not worthy of Bond. However, in comparison to Arnold, I'm happy we have him. He has the potential (he showed it in SF to me) but he has to realize it fully. If he can't then he must go and we must get someone new.
    Murdock wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    (I mentioned Night at the Opera and African Rundown before). Those tracks are definitely creatively aping the Barry sound, and very consciously.

    What Barry track does African Rundown sound like? In all of Barry's work, I've never heard anything that sounded like African Rundown.

    To me it has the Barry sound. Continued repetitive building grand orchestral motifs which was a Barry staple. In this case, referencing the title track added to that impression. It was (to that point) the most Barry'esque thing that Arnold had done for Bond to my ears, until Night at the Opera came along, which to me, like African Rundown, is a sort of tribute to Barry.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,328
    Continued repetitive building grand orchestral motifs is what all good composers do. Barry and Arnold weren't the only ones to do that.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Murdock wrote: »
    Continued repetitive building grand orchestral motifs is what all good composers do. Barry and Arnold weren't the only ones to do that.

    Barry is the one who I most associate with this. For me, it's his trademark. Even the quieter suspenseful parts of his score use this element. I personally love it. He finds a great rhythmic melody and then repeats and varies it several times in one track. Brilliant, and I have not heard it enough by others. The trick to me is an appropriate rhythmic melody, which he was just so damn good at. Each one of them (even those that ran for a few seconds) were classics to my ears.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Such a shame we had no more Barry after 87. Why didn't EON move heaven and Earth to bring him back?
  • Posts: 5,767
    doubleoego wrote: »
    Newman gets a lot of flack because (1) his SF score was subpar overall for a 50 year anniversary movie (2) he has the talent and has a good body of work behibd him before boarding Bond (3)was then given a bloody Oscar nomination for his unimpressive effort just because of his family name.
    (4) as soon as the first bits of SF´s music were online, the same voices who critisized Arnold for being bland and generic called Newman´s score a huge improvement, which it certainly wasn´t.

  • Posts: 501
    1) I don't think it was a subpar overall for a 50 year anniversary movie. For me it's in the better half of the lot.

    2) He does have talent, and has a great work before doing Bond, can't argue with that.

    3) Newman didn't get nominated because he's a Newman. If that were the reason, his brother, David Newman, would've got nominated every single year as well. However, he only was nominated for Anastasia. His surname, and the fact that he's the son of Alfred Newman, the composer with most Oscars with 9, has nothing to do with it.

    4) It was an improvement. A huge improvement. Arnold's work was almost always trying to imitate John Barry. I don't some impersonator, I want the original or another. The same way I don't like most of the imitators of Hans Zimmer of nowadays, despite loving Zimmer himself. I think Arnold is a fine composer, but he was too concerned with make it look as if he was a modern version of Barry that he never showed all of his potential. I liked Casino Royale more than any of the other Bond scores he composed, but still, not enough for me. His work for the TV series Sherlock however, I love his score.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,328
    Clearly most of us and our opinions on Newman/Arnold are divided. I'm all for giving Newman a second chance. Let's all agree to disagree and hope Newman delivers and don't cock it up alright?
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Well, I'm hoping for the best but I'm well prepared for the worst.
  • Posts: 4,599
    I wonder at what point, if at all, we will not be comparing new sound tracks to Barry's. The issue is that longevity is a sign of quality IMHO when it comes to music. Barry's music will be as good in 50 years as it is now (or back then), until someone comes along with Barry's talent, we will be having these conversation for every new Bond movie to come.
  • edited July 2015 Posts: 11,119
    I have been very sceptical about all examples in here to, possibly, replace Thomas Newman in the future. Most of them I firmly dislike. Michael Giacchino? Nahh....Then I think Thomas Newman is much better at creating/composing memorable arrangements and melodies.

    But as you know "The Man From UNCLE" will premiere in about two weeks. And like with "Kingsman: The Secret Service" (Henry Jackman did a very good job for this film) and "Mission: Impossible - Rogue Nation" (Joe Kraemer, not so much of a fan of the first track I heard), I have been digging into the composer's work of "UNCLE".

    His name is Pemberton....Daniel Pemberton. A young UK-based composer (born 1978). And I think this man has the "midas touch" that the late John Barry always had.




    Just listen to some examples from his score for the BBC TV-Mini-Series "The Game" (2014). A great cold war espionage TV-series, reminiscent of "The Americans".

    It oozes late 1960's, early 1970's sound. The orchestration with the lush violins, russian klavecimbel-strings and xylophones give his melodies a particular rich and lush feel. In a way it reminds me of "The Persuaders". But most importantly, he composes...melodies! Unforgettable, clearly structured arrangements.....that stick to your mind!:





    His recent score for the 2013 film "The Counselor", directed by Ridley Scott. It has a slight western-flavor to it. Perhaps reminiscent of John Barry's "The Magnificent Seven". Though also Ennio Morricone comes to my mind:


    Here are some tracks from his only big motion picture soundtrack so far, "The Awakening" (2009). A track like 'The Seance' has this wonderful choir added to it, that makes it sound mysterious and dark. And in a way it sounds like 'Slumber Inc.' from John Barry's "Diamonds Are Forever" score.

    And again, lovely strings of cello's, violins, alt violins, and choirs that give you goosebumps. And again, beautiful arrangements and melodies:



    And, because I can't stop now, here are some tracks from the BBC Documentary "Heroes and Villains" (2007), from the episodes "Attila The Hun" and "Napoleon" to be precise. Wonderful, magnificent, classical arrangements that are entirely focused on a kind of Mozart-esque tradition of writing. A bloody shame that he has been so invisible to bigger movie production companies:



    And to finish this post, a wonderful piece of carnival music from Mr Pemberton. It's absolutely happy, frivolous and I would love to hear this as source music in a carnival scene in a James Bond film:


    And this talent, born in 1978, finally gets to compose music for a big blockbuster spy movie: "The Man From UNCLE". I. Can. Not. Wait. For. This. Score! And I think this man should be seriously considered to compose a Bond score in the future.
  • edited July 2015 Posts: 11,425
    patb wrote: »
    I wonder at what point, if at all, we will not be comparing new sound tracks to Barry's. The issue is that longevity is a sign of quality IMHO when it comes to music. Barry's music will be as good in 50 years as it is now (or back then), until someone comes along with Barry's talent, we will be having these conversation for every new Bond movie to come.

    We will probably always compare to Barry but others have been successful (Martin), some just okay (Kamen), bland (Newman) and downright awful (Serra). I Expect Kamen standard or better, but bland and awful are not acceptable.
  • Posts: 3,333
    Murdock wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    (I mentioned Night at the Opera and African Rundown before). Those tracks are definitely creatively aping the Barry sound, and very consciously.

    What Barry track does African Rundown sound like? In all of Barry's work, I've never heard anything that sounded like African Rundown.

    African Rundown sounds a little like John Barry's Nightwall track on the King Kong soundtrack.

  • Posts: 501
    Getafix wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    I wonder at what point, if at all, we will not be comparing new sound tracks to Barry's. The issue is that longevity is a sign of quality IMHO when it comes to music. Barry's music will be as good in 50 years as it is now (or back then), until someone comes along with Barry's talent, we will be having these conversation for every new Bond movie to come.

    We will probably always compare to Barry but others have been successful (Martin), some just okay (Kamen), bland (Newman) and downright awful (Serra). I Expect Kamen standard or better, but bland and awful are not acceptable.

    Bland and awful are David Arnod's TND and DAD. They're horrible. QoS just bland, not so awful. I don't see all that hatred against these two scores.


    Regarding new composers, as I said before, I'd love Alberto Iglesias, Alexandre Desplat or Murray Gold to have a go.



  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    edited August 2015 Posts: 1,261
    Getafix wrote: »
    Such a shame we had no more Barry after 87. Why didn't EON move heaven and Earth to bring him back?

    They tried to get him back for TND, but Barry declined and recommended Arnold instead.

    About Barry's style of music:
    Barry went on to write the music for 11 Bond films, his scores often written in minor keys but built on strong bass lines and buttressed by a brass wall of sound — screeching trumpets and strident trombones. Many of the tunes teetered uneasily on the edge of camp, the result of Barry’s striving for a suitable match for the overblown action on the screen.

    And because of tax matters, Barry moved to the US: (some people say, thhat this had to do with him not working in the UK more often)
    In 1970 he moved to California and became a tax exile. Indeed, despite his success, he owed large sums to the Inland Revenue, and shortly afterwards his company was liquidated with debts of £365,000. Seven years later Mr Justice Templeman accused him of deliberately emigrating to avoid paying the £134,000 due to the taxman, and it was not until the late 1980s that the situation was resolved and Barry was able to return to England.
    Although he was still used for Bond films, Barry’s tax problems coincided with a general dip in his fortunes, and his stock did not recover until he was asked to score a Bruce Lee film, Game of Death, in the late 1970s. He did not want to take the job and named an astronomical figure for his services. The producer accepted, and thereafter Barry became one of the most sought-after, and richest, film composers in Hollywood. He also won two more Oscars, with the lush yet sophisticated scores for Out of Africa (1985) and Kevin Costner’s revisionist Western, Dances With Wolves (1990).

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/culture-obituaries/music-obituaries/8292892/John-Barry.html

    I also hoped for Barry to return to the Bond franchise, especially after his score for the Stallone/Stone flick THE SPECIALIST (which I still like - the score, that is)...
    I like Arnold's work on SHERLOCK. Alexander Desplat would be good choice if he gets offered the job, maybe Michael Giacchino (based on his input for the two STAR TREK movies by JJ Abrams. Alberto Iglesias? Why not?
    And we should really stop comparing every composer to Barry. Barry is a legend anjd wiklk ever be a legend and genius, and he created the Bond sound we all loved and still love, but he's gone forever and will never return. So mlet's be fair in judging his successors. If I want John Barry, I'd listen to one of his soundtracks, Bond or Non-Bond.
  • Posts: 5,767
    patb wrote: »
    I wonder at what point, if at all, we will not be comparing new sound tracks to Barry's. The issue is that longevity is a sign of quality IMHO when it comes to music. Barry's music will be as good in 50 years as it is now (or back then), until someone comes along with Barry's talent, we will be having these conversation for every new Bond movie to come.
    I can only speak for myself of course, but my opinion that Arnold´s music is "not as good as" Barry´s music doesn´t keep me in the slightest from enjoying it. I have days though when I just don´t find access to Newman´s SF score, even if technically speaking he is a "better" composer than Arnold is.

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,009
    bondjames wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    Continued repetitive building grand orchestral motifs is what all good composers do. Barry and Arnold weren't the only ones to do that.

    Barry is the one who I most associate with this. For me, it's his trademark. Even the quieter suspenseful parts of his score use this element. I personally love it. He finds a great rhythmic melody and then repeats and varies it several times in one track. Brilliant, and I have not heard it enough by others. The trick to me is an appropriate rhythmic melody, which he was just so damn good at. Each one of them (even those that ran for a few seconds) were classics to my ears.

    Agreed with the Barry summary and appraisal but for me Arnold reminds me more of John Williams than Barry for the most part, especially in his action scoring. He only really turns up the Barry influences on his transition and romantic pieces.

    There's a reason why Stargate, ID4 and Godzilla are held in such high regard. They're three of the best scores of the 90's. He applied that same template to Casino Royale, which for me, is the best non-Barry soundtrack - second only to LALD.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited August 2015 Posts: 4,043
    Alexandre Desplat to me is someone screaming to get a chance, watched Imitation Game last night and noticed the subtle Barry nods in there

    His Oscar winning score to Grand Budapest Hotel was exquisite, I could just see him bringing the melody back to the series.

    Morten Tyldum was in the running for 'Spectre' before Mendes signed on, maybe he might be a possible candidate for Bond 25, especially with the success of Imitation Game, might want to bring Desplat with him like Mendes bought Newman unless he's told Arnold is back.
  • HMBFFHMBFF Lisboa, Portugal
    Posts: 204
    Am I the only one who's getting a certain 'Capsule In Space' vibe, from this track of Joe Kraemer's M:I-RN soundtrack?
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited August 2015 Posts: 8,009
    Edit: [Post Deleted]
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited August 2015 Posts: 8,009
    I have been very sceptical about all examples in here to, possibly, replace Thomas Newman in the future. Most of them I firmly dislike. Michael Giacchino? Nahh....Then I think Thomas Newman is much better at creating/composing memorable arrangements and melodies.

    But as you know "The Man From UNCLE" will premiere in about two weeks. And like with "Kingsman: The Secret Service" (Henry Jackman did a very good job for this film) and "Mission: Impossible - Rogue Nation" (Joe Kraemer, not so much of a fan of the first track I heard), I have been digging into the composer's work of "UNCLE".

    His name is Pemberton....Daniel Pemberton. A young UK-based composer (born 1978). And I think this man has the "midas touch" that the late John Barry always had.




    Just listen to some examples from his score for the BBC TV-Mini-Series "The Game" (2014). A great cold war espionage TV-series, reminiscent of "The Americans".

    It oozes late 1960's, early 1970's sound. The orchestration with the lush violins, russian klavecimbel-strings and xylophones give his melodies a particular rich and lush feel. In a way it reminds me of "The Persuaders". But most importantly, he composes...melodies! Unforgettable, clearly structured arrangements.....that stick to your mind!:





    His recent score for the 2013 film "The Counselor", directed by Ridley Scott. It has a slight western-flavor to it. Perhaps reminiscent of John Barry's "The Magnificent Seven". Though also Ennio Morricone comes to my mind:


    Here are some tracks from his only big motion picture soundtrack so far, "The Awakening" (2009). A track like 'The Seance' has this wonderful choir added to it, that makes it sound mysterious and dark. And in a way it sounds like 'Slumber Inc.' from John Barry's "Diamonds Are Forever" score.

    And again, lovely strings of cello's, violins, alt violins, and choirs that give you goosebumps. And again, beautiful arrangements and melodies:



    And, because I can't stop now, here are some tracks from the BBC Documentary "Heroes and Villains" (2007), from the episodes "Attila The Hun" and "Napoleon" to be precise. Wonderful, magnificent, classical arrangements that are entirely focused on a kind of Mozart-esque tradition of writing. A bloody shame that he has been so invisible to bigger movie production companies:



    And to finish this post, a wonderful piece of carnival music from Mr Pemberton. It's absolutely happy, frivolous and I would love to hear this as source music in a carnival scene in a James Bond film:


    And this talent, born in 1978, finally gets to compose music for a big blockbuster spy movie: "The Man From UNCLE". I. Can. Not. Wait. For. This. Score! And I think this man should be seriously considered to compose a Bond score in the future.

    I thought you would be interested in this, @Gustav - popped up on my newsfeed and I thought of your post.

    Edit: Yes, sorry about that. Poor internet tonight so the connection kept timing out when I was typing.
  • Posts: 11,119
    Did something go wrong with the reply @CraigMooreOHMSS ?
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited August 2015 Posts: 8,009
    Edit: [Post Deleted]
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