Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2017 Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I'm obviously not an actor but I don't quite get how you can overplay being emotionless?
    Some just can't help it. Aussies come to mind. Hemsworth (both of them), Worthington and Taylor-Johnson. Planks basically.
  • Posts: 11,189
    bondjames wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I'm obviously not an actor but I don't quite get how you can overplay being emotionless?
    Some just can't help it. Aussies come to mind. Hemsworth (both of them), Worthington and Taylor-Johnson. Planks basically.

    But that's not overplaying though. That's just wooden though, right?
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited January 2017 Posts: 40,956
    I know it's a sin, but I've warmed to Worthington a bit lately. I thought he was great in 'Sabotage' and 'Hacksaw Ridge.' If you want wooden, check out Liam Hemsworth.

    Not a big fan of Taylor-Johnson, but speaking of him, didn't he just get some nominations for 'Nocturnal Animals'?
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    BAIN123 wrote: »


    You have your opinion and I have mine. As actors they could not be more different. Craig overplays being emotionless and unlike Fleming's Bond, he is not affected by all the killing.


    I'm obviously not an actor but I don't quite get how you can overplay being emotionless?

    He over uses the coldness and is unaffected. He is more terminator-like. Bond is machine-like in Craig's portrayal.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2017 Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I'm obviously not an actor but I don't quite get how you can overplay being emotionless?
    Some just can't help it. Aussies come to mind. Hemsworth (both of them), Worthington and Taylor-Johnson. Planks basically.

    But that's not overplaying though. That's just wooden though, right?
    True. I can't tell how the result would be any different if someone overacted being emotionless though. Those 4 are the gold standard imho, along with Jai Courtney (I can't believe I forgot about this chump - another Aussie).
  • Posts: 19,339
    I cant stand Sam Worthington....really...but thats my personal opinion.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    barryt007 wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    I enjoy Dalton's performances and his films, he's obviously a talented actor, but I do think he is caught 'acting' at times. If you play the scene of Bond finding Della followed by Bond cradling Vesper it's evident that Craig brings an extra level of screen acting class.

    I see the point, but in fairness we are talking about acting styles, with one being from 1989 and one from 2006. I think Craig had great backing and a director in Campbell who refined better than Glen.

    Those subtle performances that Craig achieved would have been harder, had he been for instance doing LTK. That is why a series has survived. It forges new paths of expression. And it took the disaster that was DAD, for a serious reappraisal to take place in the minds of the producers. Bourne also paved the way for that.

    I'm talking about ability, though, not style. Actors have been delivering all manner of performances for decades.

    As others have said, Dalton was guilty over egging it at times, this being a reasonable example.

    That is where a strong director would have ironed that out. Glen held the power, as this was his fifth film and all his films have dodgy takes.

    I think also the producers wanted to show off Dalton's abilities more. Why? Because Bond was ridiculed before as being an easy role that no serious actor wanted. Of course, untrue. Bond is a complex role and let's give Dalton credit for giving the best he could at the time and in the circumstances.

    Cubby was also not involved due to illness. Cubby being around helped for sure. He would have seen the dailies and perhaps asked for a retake.

    All you say might be true, but by that logic we can absolve anyone of any misdemeanour and put it down to extraneous circumstances. Pain face: directors fault, etc.

    Dalts is brilliant in parts, especially opposite Davi, but the point I was making is that I feel Craig is the superior actor. QoS was made in shambolic circumstances and he still pulled out a fantastic performance, in fact I don't recall him hitting a bum note. Dalton on the other hand has these little theatrical flourishes peppered through his films that don't quite fly.

    Comes to my earlier point. Dalton needed better backing like Craig. In Dalton's time, the production team was pulling in different directions.

    With Craig, they were all on the same page. That helps.

    We're talking at cross purposes here. The production circumstances (which were dire for QoS) are irrelevant. This is down to innate ability and screen craft.

    No one was acting like Craig back in 1989. Connery changed accent as Bond. So what. That is a reference to other posts nitpicking about accents.

    Craig is shit in the Q introduction scene in SF. He is appalling.

    Craig's good in that scene.

    As good as he was with the Queen at Buckingham Palace. That was embarrassing.

    James Bland.

    Wow,you really dont like Craig do you ?

    I'll take Brosnan in GE over Craig. Not my idea of Bond. SF was the nail in the coffin. I Always wanted Clive Owen for the part.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    bondjames wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I'm obviously not an actor but I don't quite get how you can overplay being emotionless?
    Some just can't help it. Aussies come to mind. Hemsworth (both of them), Worthington and Taylor-Johnson. Planks basically.

    But that's not overplaying though. That's just wooden though, right?
    True. I can't tell how the result would be any different if someone overacted being emotionless though. Those 4 are the gold standard imho, along with Jai Courtney (I can't believe I forgot about this chump - another Aussie).

    Craig reminds me of that Red Grant coldness. You see that old Bond feels, whilst Grant follows orders with no signs of remorse.

    Craig would have been perfect as a modern Red Grant.

  • Posts: 11,189
    My problem with Craig is more in SP and how he doesn't seem to be given as much meaty stuff to play as before. They almost seem to revert back to the action hero Bond of later Brosnan at times.

    That said I really liked Craig in SF for the most part and I loved his performance in Ms death scene.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    acoppola wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I'm obviously not an actor but I don't quite get how you can overplay being emotionless?
    Some just can't help it. Aussies come to mind. Hemsworth (both of them), Worthington and Taylor-Johnson. Planks basically.

    But that's not overplaying though. That's just wooden though, right?
    True. I can't tell how the result would be any different if someone overacted being emotionless though. Those 4 are the gold standard imho, along with Jai Courtney (I can't believe I forgot about this chump - another Aussie).

    Craig reminds me of that Red Grant coldness. You see that old Bond feels, whilst Grant follows orders with no signs of remorse.
    That is an interesting perspective. His iteration is far colder emotionally than Connery's Bond, no doubt about it, and is physically the most intimidating as a killer imho (due to his stocky build). I didn't feel the coldness in CR, but certainly felt it in QoS. I think it was intentional there though due to his purpose.
  • Posts: 11,189
    bondjames wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I'm obviously not an actor but I don't quite get how you can overplay being emotionless?
    Some just can't help it. Aussies come to mind. Hemsworth (both of them), Worthington and Taylor-Johnson. Planks basically.

    But that's not overplaying though. That's just wooden though, right?
    True. I can't tell how the result would be any different if someone overacted being emotionless though. Those 4 are the gold standard imho, along with Jai Courtney (I can't believe I forgot about this chump - another Aussie).

    Craig reminds me of that Red Grant coldness. You see that old Bond feels, whilst Grant follows orders with no signs of remorse.
    That is an interesting perspective. His iteration is far colder emotionally than Connery's Bond, no doubt about it, and is physically the most intimidating as a killer imho (due to his stocky build). I didn't feel the coldness in CR, but certainly felt it in QoS. I think it was intentional there though due to his purpose.

    I really liked Craig's acting in the canyon with Camille. You could sense his compassion towards her.

  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    bondjames wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I'm obviously not an actor but I don't quite get how you can overplay being emotionless?
    Some just can't help it. Aussies come to mind. Hemsworth (both of them), Worthington and Taylor-Johnson. Planks basically.

    But that's not overplaying though. That's just wooden though, right?
    True. I can't tell how the result would be any different if someone overacted being emotionless though. Those 4 are the gold standard imho, along with Jai Courtney (I can't believe I forgot about this chump - another Aussie).

    Craig reminds me of that Red Grant coldness. You see that old Bond feels, whilst Grant follows orders with no signs of remorse.
    That is an interesting perspective. His iteration is far colder emotionally than Connery's Bond, no doubt about it, and is physically the most intimidating as a killer imho (due to his stocky build). I didn't feel the coldness in CR, but certainly felt it in QoS. I think it was intentional there though due to his purpose.

    He does show coldness in CR. When the girl is found dead on the hammock, he was emotionless. I am reading the novels again. What Craig does adhere to from Fleming is how Bond gulps down alcohol after a tense moment.

    How he disposes of Mathhis in QOS is akin to rubbish and not a person.

    Craig is far more thuggish than any past Bond. More braun than brain. Bond survives not just by his physical abilities.
  • Posts: 11,189
    But Craig is clearly regretful and saddened over Solange's death. It's more that he deliberately doesn't show it infront of M.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    But Craig is clearly regretful and saddened over Solange's death. It's more that he deliberately doesn't show it infront of M.

    Wouldn't bother, mate.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    RC7 wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    But Craig is clearly regretful and saddened over Solange's death. It's more that he deliberately doesn't show it infront of M.

    Wouldn't bother, mate.

    I have the right to disagree with you. Not manly to interfere with someone else's reply. to me. That tells me I got to you.

    We are debating and I see differently to you. Think politics. I have a preference for Dalton and that will not change overnight.



  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    But Craig is clearly regretful and saddened over Solange's death. It's more that he deliberately doesn't show it infront of M.


    Where? Scene over and it is not mentioned again.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    He was ticked about Fields. That's for sure. So was I. She should have survived imho.
  • edited January 2017 Posts: 11,189
    acoppola wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    But Craig is clearly regretful and saddened over Solange's death. It's more that he deliberately doesn't show it infront of M.


    Where? Scene over and it is not mentioned again.

    That's more of an issue with Severine's death (who was set up as a character we would see for longer than we did).

    In terms of Craig's reaction I think it was again a case of not showing emotion infront of his company (in this case Silva).

    I do agree though that Severine certainly deserved another mention in the film given her traumatic backstory.

    Solange's early death though wasn't exactly a surprise due to her close link to the enemy and the fact that she gave into Bond and told him what he needed to know. Her role in the film was technically over.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    But Craig is clearly regretful and saddened over Solange's death. It's more that he deliberately doesn't show it infront of M.


    Where? Scene over and it is not mentioned again.

    That's more of an issue with Severine's death (who was set up as a character we would see for longer than we did.

    In terms of Craig's reaction I think it was again a case of not showing emotion infront of his company (in this case Silva).

    I do agree though that Severine certainly deserved another mention in the film given her traumatic backstory.

    I see what you mean. However, he is a more introverted Bond than the others. He can be very expressionless. It is a pattern with him. I mentioned the Red Grant similarity back in 2012.


  • edited January 2017 Posts: 11,189
    I think Craig tends to underplay things and people mistake that for being expressionless (his performance during the exchange with M in the interrogation room with Mr White, where he is indeed very cold but you still sense his anger).
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243

    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I think Craig tends to underplay things and people mistake that for being expressionless (his performance during the exchange with M in the interrogation room with Mr White).

    That's his choice and right. Like Dalton he didn't clone until SP. I respect him as an actor though. He certainly is believable.

    I think he lost something by SF. My opinion, but QOS was for me his best film. I am in a minority.

  • Posts: 11,189
    i'm not too fond of QoS but I generally like Craig in it, even though he isn't given as much to work with.
  • edited January 2017 Posts: 4,602
    Very interesting discussion here and I do think that the Director does need to share credit/blame re acting performances. I remember seeing a great interview with Michael Douglas about his "greed is good" speech in Wall Street. Oliver Stone made him do it over and over again, every time picking something wrong and looking for an improvement, stretching his acting like no other director had done before and it lead to not only an 80s classic but an Oscar for Douglas. All the examples of below par Bond scenes we are referencing have one thing in common: the director thought they were OK rather than say "cut, let's go again". So IMHO the partnership between the leading man/woman and the director is crucial in producing a quality performance.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    Posts: 1,243
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    i'm not too fond of QoS but I generally like Craig in it, even though he isn't given as much to work with.

    That scene with White and M was outstanding. I agree. Craig is right for that film.
  • RC7RC7
    edited January 2017 Posts: 10,512
    acoppola wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    But Craig is clearly regretful and saddened over Solange's death. It's more that he deliberately doesn't show it infront of M.

    Wouldn't bother, mate.

    I have the right to disagree with you. Not manly to interfere with someone else's reply. to me. That tells me I got to you.

    We are debating and I see differently to you. Think politics. I have a preference for Dalton and that will not change overnight.

    I have no issue with you having a preference for Dalton, why would I? You clearly have an issue with Craig's look, which is your prerogative, my mum feels the same way - however, I do think you're being belligerent and deliberately obtuse when it comes to critiquing him as an actor, hence why I told @BAIN123 to not bother. Your assertions about Craig being expressionless just don't hold water, I'm afraid.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    patb wrote: »
    Very interesting discussion here and I do think that the Director does need to share credit/blame re acting performances. I remember seeing a great interview with Michael Douglas about his "greed is good" speech in Wall Street. Oliver Stone made him do it over and over again, every time picking something wrong and looking for an improvement, stretching his acting like no other director had done before and it lead to not only an 80s classic but an Oscar for Douglas. All the examples of below par Bond scenes we are referencing have one thing in common: the director thought they were OK rather than say "cut, let's go again". So IMHO the partnership between the leading man/woman and the director is crucial in producing a quality performance.

    You are right. The director has the last say and an actor does not have a say in the editing room. Plus if a director is in a hurry to do other scenes, that can compromise a performance.

    Mendes had more time to explore than Glen. Glen in his book, forbade crew seeing dailies, as Dalton wanted to redo scenes based on crew feedback. Dalton would ask the crew what they thought and Glen didn't like it.

    Glen had more power than Dalton on deciding what was acceptable for a take. LTK also had budget reductions, where more takes would raise costs.

    Dalton got the script ten days before shooting. How is that collaborative? Dalton said it was not good in terms of preparing. He did great under the circumstances.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2017 Posts: 23,883
    acoppola wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I think Craig tends to underplay things and people mistake that for being expressionless (his performance during the exchange with M in the interrogation room with Mr White).

    That's his choice and right. Like Dalton he didn't clone until SP. I respect him as an actor though. He certainly is believable.

    I think he lost something by SF. My opinion, but QOS was for me his best film. I am in a minority.
    I personally think he's best in CR, but he is damn good in QoS as well. I agree that something was lost by SF, and definitely by SP. I am not sure if that's down to Mendes. I belive it is, because I saw Craig on Broadway in Betrayal in 2013 and he was outstanding - far from expressionless.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    RC7 wrote: »
    acoppola wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    But Craig is clearly regretful and saddened over Solange's death. It's more that he deliberately doesn't show it infront of M.

    Wouldn't bother, mate.

    I have the right to disagree with you. Not manly to interfere with someone else's reply. to me. That tells me I got to you.

    We are debating and I see differently to you. Think politics. I have a preference for Dalton and that will not change overnight.

    I have no issue with you having a preference for Dalton, why would I? You clearly have an issue with Craig's look, which is your prerogative, my mum feels the same way - however, I do think you're being belligerent and deliberately obtuse when it comes to critiquing him as an actor, hence why I told @BAIN123 to not bother. Your assertions about Craig being expressionless just don't hold water, I'm afraid.


    I am not being deliberately obtuse. I thought Dalton gave a fine performance in LTK. I have had that opinion for more than 20 years. I believed in his Bond portrayal.

    All I said, is that hindsight is a wonderful thing and unfair to compare acting style between, 1989 and, 2008. Dalton if he was Craig's age in, 2008 would have played different.

    And QOS is a totally different film,director and post 9/11. What is obtuse about that?

    You would have to then by extension say that Craig is acting better than Connery.

    Also Craig had the benefit of seeing what four actors had done with the role and pick his favourite ideas from them all.

    And Matt Damon, who also changed the game for spy films. And I see elements of Bourne in QOS. How Craig fights for one. So he is not as original as you say.

    Craig did not come from a blank canvass. Look at the writer he got for CR.

    What about change of director adding to change in performance? Craig is different with Forster. So director does have an undeniable influence.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2017 Posts: 23,883
    @acoppola, personally I much prefer Craig's portrayal to Dalton's. I think he's more balanced, without the emotional ups and downs. That's more to my liking, but I can appreciate your point of view. I understand where you're coming from with the 'expressionless' comment, although I don't quite see it that way.

    Craig definitely benefited from a far superior team to get him on his way (including Haggis on writing duties) and EON was committed to this vision by 2006. They were still on the fence in 1987 (especially since Brosnan was supposed to have the role) and it showed.

    EON & Craig also benefited from seeing Damon deliver Bourne. There's no question about that in my mind. They also saw Nolan and Bale deliver an outstanding inception product with Batman Begins in the prior year. So lots of quality to draw inspiration from, along with Bond's illustrious past, and all of that helped.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited January 2017 Posts: 1,243
    bondjames wrote: »
    @acoppola, personally I much prefer Craig's portrayal to Dalton's. I think he's more balanced, without the emotional ups and downs. That's more to my liking, but I can appreciate your point of view. I understand where you're coming from with the 'expressionless' comment, although I don't quite see it that way.

    Craig definitely benefited from a far superior team to get him on his way (including Haggis on writing duties) and EON was committed to this vision by 2006. They were still on the fence in 1987 (especially since Brosnan was supposed to have the role) and it showed.

    EON & Craig also benefited from seeing Damon deliver Bourne. There's no question about that in my mind. They also saw Nolan and Bale deliver an outstanding inception product with Batman Begins in the prior year. So lots of quality to draw inspiration from, along with Bond's illustrious past, and all of that helped.

    I agree with your well argued points. Had Dalton had the same backing, he would have been seen differently. Many Dalton fans know Dalton was given little to work with.

    Your on the fence point regarding EON, made it harder for Dalton. He said he would have killed for a script like CR. But that at the time was a no no for EON. Dalton had the hangover of the Moore era. Those elements were present in both his films.

    Bear in mind Dalton was my first Bond at the cinema and like Mark Gatiss, it was a breath of fresh air.

    Dalton did not get a chance to reveal his full potential in the role. A waste, because with the right team, he is dynamite.

    Imagine if Moore stopped at TMWTGG. Almost happened had Cubby not bought out Saltzman. Even back then, the franchise was in danger.

    Dalton was brave for trying something different. And LTK was the film that EON thought would succeed commercially. It scored the highest with test audiences.

    Reading the novels, Dalton prepared well in so little time.


    Craig started when conditions for a new start were bursting with ripeness. It was built from the ground up.

    EON did what the market was begging for. Risk my arse. Sony would not have gambled and Bourne was burning the box office. Kill or be killed.

    Imagine Craig in a post-Moore Glen film. Would sink faster than a led zeppelin. Lazenby 2.0
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