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On the debate :( I think that is in very poor taste, and will leave this debate, and
Will vote as my conscience tells me to on Thursday.
It's terrible to think this disgusting act has happened and it's already being used
By some, for their own petty, political points.
If the man as some witnesses reported shouted "Britain first" it in an inescapable consequence.
Quite. The assumption that seems to be casually bandied about that voting Brexit means you are a rabid racist would be considered a police matter were it targeted at Muslims or racial groups.
This was a nutter who has nothing in common with millions of ordinary people on both sides of the camp.
It's a tragedy for sure but an irrelevance to the issues of the vote.
This is about the risk of democracy that loons decide to go beyond our limits of civil behaviour. But these folks are also part of our society who take part in this discussion. And lets face it this attack at a politician does not stand alone it has happened before and will again.
While I am sure nobody wanted this act of violence but we cannot act like we are surprised with the level of unrest these last days in the UK. We can count ourselves lucky that so many idiots are currently abroad spreading the British love.
No this shouldn't be spun into some kind of political tool but I think it's clear it's linked to Brexit and that there has been too much of this whipping people up into a frenzy, both sides have been doing their fair share of scaremongering, UKIPS latest poster is an utter disgrace.
To try and say it isn't is being rather naive, the likes of Farage are just stoking the fires and now look what we've got, it's a very sad day.
Why blame it on mental illness, this man was very calculating in his attack, perhaps his defense will be mental madness. Having worked with criminals in a criminal mental institution I sometimes wondered how "crazy" they really were.
Perhaps it easier to file away as a mental patient does something horrible than admit to a blatant political assassination. A killing is more often than not the result of a strong emotional state in which a killing happens. And we know that the recent weeks were not exactly a rational affair when it comes to the arguments of Brexit.
Some posters actually admitted that they were not swayed by rational arguments but emotional. Which leads in extremis to aggression.
It's not about co-opting a tragedy to further an agenda, or blaming an entire group for the actions of an individual, but we should be asking how we can act to prevent such a descent.
“I can honestly say it has done me more good than all the psychotherapy and medication in the world,” he said. “Many people who suffer from mental illness are socially isolated and disconnected from society, feelings of worthlessness are also common, mainly caused by long-term unemployment.”
He added: “All these problems are alleviated by doing voluntary work. Getting out of the house and meeting new people is a good thing, but more important in my view is doing physically demanding and useful labour.
“When you have finished there is a feeling of achievement which is emotionally rewarding and psychologically fulfilling. For people for whom full-time, paid employment is not possible for a variety of reasons, voluntary work offers a socially positive and therapeutic alternative.”
I'm not trying to score political points, I am simply observing what the impact of this is likely to be on the referendum. Had Farage been shot by a rabid Remainer, it would obviously have won sympathy for the Leave campaign. That's just human nature.
It doesn't require me or anyone else to to say that this horrific act and the tone of the Brexit campaign are in some way connected - millions of people all over the UK will already be doing that themselves. Even the 'right wing' media are saying it - look at all those Spectator comment pieces that have been published the same day.
Many will now have that gut sense that something is going very seriously wrong in our country right now, and this is just the most violent manifestation of it. The signs have been there for a while.
Yes, the vast majority of Brexit supporters are decent and believe in their cause for honourable reasons, but something about this Leave campaign also feeds into and legitimises the worst tendencies of the nationalistic and small minded. The Farage wing of the Leave campaign have been playing with Fire.
To make this observation is not to make political capital of the situation. It's just stating the obvious.
There is no way that the Police can get all of the facts before polling day. I really do fear that this horrible death may become highly politicized within the next week and a desperate inner campaign who are clearly on the back foot seek to gain leverage and brand the whole out campaign as racist before we know the full facts about this single horrible act.
Would you be saying the same about Islam if the guy had been a Muslim?
Well, firstly, all I'm doing is observing that even the right wing media are already extrapolating from this murder that there is a connection to the tone of the referendum campaign and specifically that of Farage and co. That's a fact - look at the Spectator, which is right of centre and usually fairly Eurosceptic.
And secondly, yes I would connect violent Islamic fundamentalism with a general tendency towards intolerance and acceptance of violence as a means to an end within Islam.
That doesn't mean I tar all Muslims or Leavers with the same brush as their most extreme brethren, but I am not one who buys the Obama line that Islam in general and violent extremism are totally unrelated.
Farage has been playing the anti foreigner, xenophobic and frankly racist card unashamedly, and so its not totally surprising that those who only need a little encouragement take things that bit further. People have been warning about this even before today's events.
I myself was already worried about what forces a Brexit win might release. It's not hard to imagine a bit of mosque smashing next Thursday night if Leave win. I imagine there are quite a few places around the country where anyone who is not white might think twice about going out for a drink that evening if Leave wins.
As I say, Farage has been playing with fire. It's not as if people haven't been warning something like this might happen.
I think the important point here is differentiating between individuals and institutions. Obviously we shouldn't be blaming individual Muslims or Brexiters for the actions of a minority, but we should ask questions about their beliefs and the institutions that they subscribe to. For example, I think it's entirely appropriate to question the teachings of Islam and how these ideas are communicated/interpreted, particularly among young and disenfranchised Muslims. But we shouldn't blame or victimise individual Muslims, most of whom are entirely moderate and law-abiding. I think you can attach the same attitude to the referendum campaign - most people have entirely honourable intentions in campaigning for the Leave side, but I think it's clear that the tone of the debate has inflamed some rather ugly prejudices within a minority.
"Aamir Tahir, of the Dry Clean Centre, said the gunman was heard shouting "Britain first".
He said: "The lady I work with heard two loud bangs but I wasn't there, I was stuck in traffic at the time. I wish I was there because I would have tried to stop him.
"The whole street thinks it was me but it wasn't. Apparently the guy who did it shouted 'Britain first' and if I had been there I would have tackled him."
Also, we seem to be assuming that this killing is actually linked to the EU vote. This guy may have made the attack anyway . We are assuming that there is a causal link between the vote and the killing but with no causal evidence.(as yet)
Exactly
Interesting. Although I think the 'Britain' first' thing is corroborated by others.
As I said earlier, it's possible that this is primarily a mental health case. Infact it seems this is almost certainly a factor. But the impact on the referendum might still occur.
to use her death, to boost their own political claims. Instead of having a time for reflection,
they immediately jumped on their band wagon. Distasteful and shameful to see, although
they won't see it like that. Because they are so much smarter than the rest of us, and will
defend their position, but Shame on them.
Scoring points on a debate on a Bond forum, is more important. Than showing some
decency and respect.
My point exactly all well said sir.
Both sides here will be at fault if, when the results are announced, people will react badly - these scaremongering and borderline hatred speeches from both sides have created an irreconcilable line between both camps.