Would Goldeneye have been a success with Dalton?

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    I find GE and TWINE two of the most plodding directorial efforts of recent times. Even CR I find slightly dull at times. I'd go as far as saying Cambell is the most overrated director.
    I definitely agree on TWINE, but I hope, in time, that you will see the genius of Campbell's ability to bring us two very different but balanced Bond entries...
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    CR brought out the best in Campbell. Maybe he would have stepped up to the plate more in 1994/95 if Dalton was still Bond. We will never know.
  • Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I find GE and TWINE two of the most plodding directorial efforts of recent times. Even CR I find slightly dull at times. I'd go as far as saying Cambell is the most overrated director.
    I definitely agree on TWINE, but I hope, in time, that you will see the genius of Campbell's ability to bring us two very different but balanced Bond entries...

    I like CR but I do think it's a little overrated sometimes. Having said that, it's a massive improvement on Campbell's first effort, which I've always thought was appalling. GE to me is like a very bad rip off of a John Glen movie. Practically nothing about GE works for me - no the directing, music, casting, script, action etc.

    CR however felt very new and fresh. I actually sometimes find it difficult to believe they're from the same director.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I find GE and TWINE two of the most plodding directorial efforts of recent times. Even CR I find slightly dull at times. I'd go as far as saying Cambell is the most overrated director.
    I definitely agree on TWINE, but I hope, in time, that you will see the genius of Campbell's ability to bring us two very different but balanced Bond entries...

    I like CR but I do think it's a little overrated sometimes. Having said that, it's a massive improvement on Campbell's first effort, which I've always thought was appalling. GE to me is like a very bad rip off of a John Glen movie. Practically nothing about GE works for me - no the directing, music, casting, script, action etc.

    CR however felt very new and fresh. I actually sometimes find it difficult to believe they're from the same director.
    There is definitely a maturity to CR that is not in GE.

    I've always chalked it up to him being a first time Bond director, the long gap between films, and the budget which was pretty small (and they did location filming in Monaco with that budget as well as building the great looking finale set which to this day impresses me).

    I agree that looking back on it these days it definitely has a tv feel in places, but to me it somehow still manages to give off the Bondian flair that was missing in some of Glen's entries. GE is definitely a strange cookie....it straddles the past and also looks to the future, in more ways than one. The end fight is excellent though, as is the Ferrari/Aston homage chase.
  • Posts: 7,397
    Good to hear so many good comments about my favourite Bond, Timothy Dalton. Its interesting, as we all know, TLD was written for Moore in case he changed his mind at the last minute, as he was wont to do with previous movies! So it was just adapted for Dalton. I wonder what would have happened if they delayed production ,and rewrote if for TD. Would it have been as gritty and violent as LTK? I agree totally with the claim that John Glen is very under-rated. LTK is a very well told story, someone mentioned Rashomon before. That's a good comparison. Bond infiltrating a villains lair, and plays them off one another, with some good twists in the plot, and fantastic action set pieces! (Under-rated theme song too, from Gladys Knight!). As Glen states in his marvellous book, it was very badly marketed, and everyone was waiting for Batman (which turned out to be a major borefest!) It is getting a lot more love now than it did then. And it holds up now really well, far more so than GE, which looks horribly dated and dull!
  • Posts: 11,425
    I think the Rashomon thing was conscious and deliberate. It was supposed to be set in the Far East originally.
  • Posts: 7,397
    I think it was supposed to film in China. But 'The Last Emperor' got there before them, so they changed the setting!
  • Posts: 613
    I feel without Dalton GE wouldn't have been the same movie.It was his take on bond that lead to the writing of that movie IMO,but I don't think it would have been as big with him in it.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I feel without Dalton GE wouldn't have been the same movie.It was his take on bond that lead to the writing of that movie IMO,but I don't think it would have been as big with him in it.

    But it would have been better.
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2015 Posts: 1,243
    As Roger Moore said, there is no such thing as bad publicity. I laugh how some call Dalton the forgotten Bond, when in fact he is more talked about now as Bond, than 20 years ago. if his contribution was average, I would not be wasting my time talking about him.

    And he has an incredible look too, along with his acting skills. And I love how he truly knows the character of Bond beyond Craig's recent revelation in Time Out Magazine : "he f**ks anything with a pulse". Wow Craig, are you talking about Austin Powers?

    And Dalton is much classier than rough talking Craig in interviews. Dalton talks like a Prince Charles.

    I was not impressed by Craig's undignified swearing in magazine interviews. Connery and Moore were class, and knew swearing was not becoming of a character like Bond. You are representing an institution, and Craig would have been scolded by Cubby Broccoli for use of such harsh language.



  • Posts: 11,425
    When the dust has settled I thinkthe hype around Craig will evaporate pretty quickly
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited November 2015 Posts: 1,243
    Getafix wrote: »
    When the dust has settled I thinkthe hype around Craig will evaporate pretty quickly

    I am getting that feeling. Incidentally sir, I replied earlier to your post explaining my change of opinion on SF. You have a great memory sir!

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2015 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    When the dust has settled I thinkthe hype around Craig will evaporate pretty quickly
    It happened with the previous incumbent, so that's normally inevitable when there's a change (a more objective reassessment with the benefit of hindsight), unless his successor is useless, like Jai Courtney or someone like that. Then they'll be begging Craig to come back even in a wheelchair!
  • edited November 2015 Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    When the dust has settled I thinkthe hype around Craig will evaporate pretty quickly
    It happened with the previous incumbent, so that's normally inevitable when there's a change (a more objective reassessment with the benefit of hindsight), unless his successor is useless, like Jai Courtney or someone like that. Then they'll be begging Craig to come back even in a wheelchair!

    True. If the next one is awful it will make Craig look good.

    I think in the long term though when people have distance and time between them and the movies, there'll be a more measured assessment. I have no doubt he'll be fondly remembered by most, but will his portrayal have the enduring appreciation of Connery and Moore?
  • Posts: 613
    I think he will be up with Connery and Moore.Probably behind them, but still on that level.
  • Posts: 11,425
    He could well be. He is a solid Bond.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Craig (if this IS his last one) will be remembered as a game-changing Bond who went out on the highest of notes.
  • Posts: 486
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I find GE and TWINE two of the most plodding directorial efforts of recent times. Even CR I find slightly dull at times. I'd go as far as saying Cambell is the most overrated director.
    I definitely agree on TWINE, but I hope, in time, that you will see the genius of Campbell's ability to bring us two very different but balanced Bond entries...

    I like CR but I do think it's a little overrated sometimes. Having said that, it's a massive improvement on Campbell's first effort, which I've always thought was appalling. GE to me is like a very bad rip off of a John Glen movie. Practically nothing about GE works for me - no the directing, music, casting, script, action etc.

    CR however felt very new and fresh. I actually sometimes find it difficult to believe they're from the same director.

    Same here. He's a great TV director but perhaps Campbell just got lucky on CR. Phil Meheux upped his game with the cinematography and we had the gravitas of Fleming material. Until we get to Montenegro the film is still skating perilously close to the mindless excessiveness of a Brosnan effort.

    The appeal of GE continues to alude me. It looks cheap, it's incredibly dull in places (despite people suggesting it's a great action film) the dialogue is woefully unrealistic, the performances from Bean, Cumming and Famke all should have been reigned in, the Samantha Bond Moneypenny is rather ghastly, the model work at Serenya is too obvious, the PTS is a cheat and the running around with machine guns is out of character.

    Even the tank sequence which is cited as a highlight looks tatty with the painfully obvious backlot reconstruction and the unharmed policemen stepping out of the crushed car is pure A-Team/Dukes Of Hazard material. This is the man who also thought 'I'm invincible' was appropriate for a Bond film despite publically criticising the Moore films.

    I'd take Glen over Campbell as an action director any day and for all the Mendes hate that goes on at least his two Bond films have better dialogue than ' For England James...' '...tastes of strawberries' and the awful 'little finger' codswallop.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Cowley wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I find GE and TWINE two of the most plodding directorial efforts of recent times. Even CR I find slightly dull at times. I'd go as far as saying Cambell is the most overrated director.
    I definitely agree on TWINE, but I hope, in time, that you will see the genius of Campbell's ability to bring us two very different but balanced Bond entries...

    I like CR but I do think it's a little overrated sometimes. Having said that, it's a massive improvement on Campbell's first effort, which I've always thought was appalling. GE to me is like a very bad rip off of a John Glen movie. Practically nothing about GE works for me - no the directing, music, casting, script, action etc.

    CR however felt very new and fresh. I actually sometimes find it difficult to believe they're from the same director.

    Same here. He's a great TV director but perhaps Campbell just got lucky on CR. Phil Meheux upped his game with the cinematography and we had the gravitas of Fleming material. Until we get to Montenegro the film is still skating perilously close to the mindless excessiveness of a Brosnan effort.

    The appeal of GE continues to alude me. It looks cheap, it's incredibly dull in places (despite people suggesting it's a great action film) the dialogue is woefully unrealistic, the performances from Bean, Cumming and Famke all should have been reigned in, the Samantha Bond Moneypenny is rather ghastly, the model work at Serenya is too obvious, the PTS is a cheat and the running around with machine guns is out of character.

    Even the tank sequence which is cited as a highlight looks tatty with the painfully obvious backlot reconstruction and the unharmed policemen stepping out of the crushed car is pure A-Team/Dukes Of Hazard material. This is the man who also thought 'I'm invincible' was appropriate for a Bond film despite publically criticising the Moore films.

    I'd take Glen over Campbell as an action director any day and for all the Mendes hate that goes on at least his two Bond films have better dialogue than ' For England James...' '...tastes of strawberries' and the awful 'little finger' codswallop.

    Totally agree!

    I definitely think Campbell benefited from having some real Fleming to work with on CR. It's qualitatively miles away from GE on every level.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Agree with that totally.
  • mcdonbbmcdonbb deep in the Heart of Texas
    edited December 2015 Posts: 4,116
    Yes, I've always been disappointed with GE. And I agree with the above comments except I still am not a big fan of Glen at all and IMO I think Campbell improved with experience between GE and CR.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Sorry chaps. GE is one of my all time faves. I can appreciate the comments about tv look etc. but it still is hugely entertaining in an OTT way (and yes, the dialogue is completely corny, but a heck of a lot of fun....and I think that was what they were going for anyway).

    Dalton certainly could have delivered a superb GE (I'm 100% sure of it) and I actually think he may have been able to hold it together and give it more gravitas. Dalton in an Aston in Monaco would have been a joy to watch.
  • ThomasCrown76ThomasCrown76 Augusta, ks
    Posts: 757
    swearing is not becoming of a man like James Bond? He's a womanizing killer. He's not mr Rogers
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2015 Posts: 23,883
    PS: For the record, I love "tastes like strawberries". I can only imagine.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,712
    The big difference between EON and other big blockbuster franchises producers is that EON do not throw their main star under the bus if a film underperforms at the box office or critically. Just look at Fantastic Four from this year or 'The Amazing Spiderman 2': the studios were not happy so they fire everyone and reboot/whatever. If EON acted the same way, Moore would have been fired after TMWTGG and Craig after QOS. But instead, they take a longer gap, regroup and throw everything at the screen and made TSWLM and SF, two of the biggest success the franchise has achieved. So I really think that without the rights issues, EON would have taken 3/4 years after LTK to reassess what went wrong and come back with a bombastic TSWLM-esque 3rd outing for Dalton that would have stunned the world over.
  • Posts: 11,189
    bondjames wrote: »
    Sorry chaps. GE is one of my all time faves. I can appreciate the comments about tv look etc. but it still is hugely entertaining in an OTT way (and yes, the dialogue is completely corny, but a heck of a lot of fun....and I think that was what they were going for anyway).

    Dalton certainly could have delivered a superb GE (I'm 100% sure of it) and I actually think he may have been able to hold it together and give it more gravitas. Dalton in an Aston in Monaco would have been a joy to watch.

    Iºm with you on that too. I admit i have a big soft spot for GE and always find it a lot of fun to watch.

    i like Samantha Bond as well. Miles better than the 80s caricature that is Caroline Bliss.

    Having said that, my appreciation for TLD has gone up a lot more in recent years as has my appreciation for Dalton as Bond.

    I´m still a bit mixed on Glen as a director, but i feel his direction of TLD is solid (A LOT better than his previous work on AVTAK and even LTK, which i do think looks cheap at times though this may be understandable given their restrictions).

    Whether we like it or not though, Dalton still seems to be a "forgotton Bond" amongst general media, even in todayºs "Craig Bond" universe. Ive heard programes take cheap swipes at him or undermine his contribution.

    "Who is your favourite Bond. Could it be the rugged, sexy Sean Connery, the suave unflappable Roger Moore or even thesp Timothy Dal....haha just kidding"
    (Channel 5 documentary)

    "This is the first time we see Bond, the man"

    (Jonathan Ross on the recent Spectre documentary)

    Even in more general publicity, i doubt we´d ever hear about it if Dalton was caught with a knife in his hand luggage (at least it wouldnºt be given the same page space it was with Broz.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I agree @BAIN123. It's regrettable that Craig is seen as the first actor to peel back the layers.......revisionist history imho.

    Dalton definitely did that decades ago, and to some extent, it can be argued that he actually did it better, since he did it within the confines of 'formula Bond'.

    That's not to discount Craig's contributions to the series, which have indeed been formidable. It's just that Dalton does not get his fair shake, that's for sure.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,729
    bondjames wrote: »
    I agree @BAIN123. It's regrettable that Craig is seen as the first actor to peel back the layers.......revisionist history imho.

    Dalton definitely did that decades ago, and to some extent, it can be argued that he actually did it better, since he did it within the confines of 'formula Bond'.

    That's not to discount Craig's contributions to the series, which have indeed been formidable. It's just that Dalton does not get his fair shake, that's for sure.

    Erm, no offence to DC, he's a superb Bond, but he does not bring the same layered performances that Dalton could.

    This "Dalton is a tv/stage actor, not a movie-star leading man" stuff is b*llocks.
    There are subtle introverted leading men and more obviously extroverted leading men - not every one of them is a forthright in-your face movie star like Jack Nicholson. Charisma is not measured by how loudly you dominate conversation.

    Nobody said Henry Fonda or William Hurt lacked leading man qualities because they are of the introverted type. It is about presence, and Dalton had plenty of it as Bond.
  • Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    Sorry chaps. GE is one of my all time faves. I can appreciate the comments about tv look etc. but it still is hugely entertaining in an OTT way (and yes, the dialogue is completely corny, but a heck of a lot of fun....and I think that was what they were going for anyway).

    Dalton certainly could have delivered a superb GE (I'm 100% sure of it) and I actually think he may have been able to hold it together and give it more gravitas. Dalton in an Aston in Monaco would have been a joy to watch.

    Dalton in his Vantage from TLD driving into Monaco please. Not the DB5.

    Tha would have been awesome.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    Dalton in his Vantage from TLD driving into Monaco please. Not the DB5.
    Agreed actually. That would have been great and a nice tie back to TLD linking the cold war and everything in between.
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