Then and Now; This Week - Spectre

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  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I had been looking forward to TLD ever since Dalton was announced in the role. Then I saw the trailer in the cinema in 1987(all from the pts) and just knew this was going to be awesome. Me and a friend went to see it and were blown away by Dalton from the start. One of the very best Bond films ever.

    Today it has slipped down to somewhere in the middle of the pack. Dalton is excellent when he is the ice cold Bond, but lacks something in the humour and alpha male department that Craig does so well. And Bond helping out with the jihad is the most cringeworthy political choice in any Bond film.

    I still love it, but

    Then-1
    Now-1
    Tie-

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,448
    The Living Daylights

    I fell in love with this movie after two watchings. I was rather young at the time so don't blame me. ;-) It's remained one of my absolute favourites. Great film; excellent Bond.

    Then - 2
    Now -2
    Tie - 0
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Puts another meaning into

    Timothy Dalton IS James Bond.
  • Then: first bond film I ever saw in its entirety, probably some time in 2001. I was an instant fan! Loved it!

    Now: I've seen all of the Bond films now, obviously, but it's still my fave!

    I may appreciate it for different reasons now, but I've always loved it just the same. It's a tie for me.

    Then - 2
    Now -2
    Tie - 1
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,418
    Great you can join us @lalala2004! Great job to all.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,758
    Then: first saw it when I was 12 or 13, immediatly loved it for the Cold War atmosphere/intrigue.

    Now: still top 5 for me, became a huge fan of Dalton after reading the books and the Koskov escape is one of my five favourite scenes in the franchise.

    It'll be a tie I guess.

    Then - 2
    Now - 2
    Tie - 2
  • Posts: 3,336
    Always loved this one

    Then - 2
    Now - 2
    Tie - 3
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    edited November 2015 Posts: 7,314
    My first experience of The Living Daylights was when I caught the trailer for it at the theater. I have no memory of what movie we actually went to see that day. As I was only eight years old, and not keeping up with the latest Bond news, I had no clue that Dalton had landed the role. So imagine my surprise when instead of my hero Roger Moore there was some other guy parading around as James Bond! He felt like an impostor. It may sound ridiculous now but I was absolutely crushed at the time. In retrospect, I'm glad that this disappointment didn't occur during the film itself, as it probably would have ruined the whole experience for me.

    As it turned out, I ended up liking Timothy Dalton just fine. The above was not meant to be a slight against him. I would have felt that way about anyone at the time. This was all new to me. My first time experiencing a new actor in the role! There was a certain buzz in the air (as I now know there always is ) and I was definitely intrigued. This Bond was being billed as very different from his predecessor. Indeed he was but with all the familiar trappings around him so we wouldn't get too lost. I enjoyed it. You have to remember that it had been Connery and/vs. Moore for so long (Lazenby wasn't really in the equation) that some people were simply unprepared for a new interpretation.

    As of this writing, I have to say my appreciation of this film has grown. Watching the film as an adult, I can now truly understand what Dalton was trying to accomplish. He comes so close... I know why so many here love him. I may not feel quite the same way but since joining this site you all have helped me to see him in a new light. I thank you for that. These were exciting and/or confusing times depending on your point of view! I may not have fully comprehended it at the time but the images of TLD will be permanently burnt into in my brain forever. This is a Now, folks.


    Then - 2
    Now - 3
    Tie - 3
  • JohnHammond73JohnHammond73 Lancashire, UK
    edited November 2015 Posts: 4,151
    The Living Daylights has great memories for me as it was the first Bond movie I ever saw at the cinema; a wonderful, old school cinema that, sadly, is no longer there. I was 14 at the time and came out astounded by what I had just saw. It didn't matter that it was a new Bond actor because I just thought it was completely amazing and I talked and talked about it for weeks after.

    Fast forward 28 years (I'm now 42, how time flies as I remember my cinema viewing as if it were yesterday) and in my last Bondathon, and maybe because I'm much older, I found myself, at times, a little bored watching it and, therefore, I ranked it lower than I ever thought I would. I rank on my enjoyment of watching the movie at the time; next time it could probably fly right up the list. However, this movie has a special place in my heart for the reasons mentioned and, because of that, I'm going to call it a tie.

    Then - 2
    Now - 3
    Tie - 4
  • Posts: 1,314
    The first bond film I ever saw at the pictures. I was 10. I thought it was amazing. But then back in those days growing up in grey dreary Yorkshire a trip to the cinema was such an event that everything was amazing. I thought the exploding milk bottles were great, loved the car with the lasers in the wheels.

    It's still a good film but Craig has knocked it down the rankings somewhat.

    I'm a then

    Then 3
    Now 3
    Tie 4
  • Posts: 582
    I have fond memories of watching The Living Daylights for the first time. It was May 1998 and since my first viewing of a Bond film (YOLT) in the summer of '97 I was steadily getting to see all the Bond films. I saw TLD on TV and it was the first one that I taped off the TV to keep, at my dad's suggestion. I remember that first viewing fondly. At this point I'd seen Bond films with SC, RM and PB. I'd heard rumours that Timothy Dalton wasn't that good - he was so bad they didn't make another one for 6 years, apparently. Of course I later discovered that that wasn't the reason behind such an extensive gap between Bonds. Tim Dalton seemed odd at first to me as Bond, but i very quickly warmed to him over the course of the film.

    I remember getting so caught up in this Bond film and would repeatedly watching the taped video thereafter.

    I have to say that I probably enjoy this film as much as I did then. And I've always struggled to decide which of Dalton's Bonds is the better. If I have any criticism it is that the fantastical elements of the Bonds seem to go out with this one. But the tradeoff is a realistic thriller that moves towards a portrayal of Bond more akin to Fleming's. I love the scene when Bond confronts Pushkin in his hotel room. Barry's score is magnificent as always. I have to say it's a tie.

    Then 3
    Now 3
    Tie 5
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,727
    Then:

    I first saw TLD on a Scandinavian movie channel via satellite when I was about 15, and I was blown away... the PTS... the Barry score... the tense defection scene... the safe house sequence... THAT Aston with it's great gadgetry, and then the two awesome stunts at the end - Necros mid air fight and the C-130 escape using the jeep & parachute platform... I was in awe of this film and it's imagery.
    Dalton WAS James Bond for me after seeing this, even though I had grown up on the Connery & Moore films.


    Now:
    It was my favorite Bond film for a very long time, and even though I rate it about 5th or 6th these days I've grown weary of the damp villains and the somewhat 'off' pacing during the Mujaheddin sequences.
    But as far as I'm concerned the first 60 minutes of TLD still represents the best cinematic hour of 007 in the series.


    Then 4
    Now 3
    Tie 5
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 7,948
    Seeing TLD on the telly first, I thought it wasn't a 'proper' Bond film. I don't kno why, but when I was young Dalton never seemed a true Bond to me.

    Nowedays I like it very much, dispite Jeroen Krabbé. It is a gripping story, and indeed, dispite the shannanigans here and there it is gritty and 'realistic'.

    Then 4
    Now 4
    Tie 5
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2015 Posts: 17,687
    While I appreciated TLD back then I had not yet read the novels. Now that I have, it's my favourite Bond movie. I guess that's a now. :D

    Then 4
    Now 5
    Tie 5
  • I never fully appreciated Roger Moore’s version of Bond back in the day…he just didn’t impress me as a dangerous guy. Nowadays, I recognize that his was the proper Bond for its time…but those times were really pretty dopey. I was happy to see somebody else slip into the tuxedo, and I definitely liked the fact that Dalton’s stated intent was to bring Bond back to his Fleming roots.

    There’s just sooo much to love about this movie! The PTS, with Dalton himself hanging on to the careening jeep…the whole defection scene, with its recurring “Need to know” put-down…Bond’s relationship with Kara, one of the most believable romances in the entire series to these weary old eyes…Necross’ fights in the kitchen and hanging from the net in the plane…Bond’s confrontation with Pushkin in the hotel room and his subsequent “assassination” of the General at the conference…and yes, I LIKE Bond working with the mujahadeen! It’s totally in keeping with the politics of its time…but even then I thought, “*Y’know, I can see that this alliance might not be considered such a good idea at some point in the future!”

    Yes, the main villains are kind of weak…yes, a diamonds for opium for weapons plot isn’t exactly on the “atom bomb in Fort Knox” level as villainous schemes go…yes, John Terry is the lamest Felix Leiter ever (you’re finally off the hook, Cec Linder!) but I don’t care. I loved TLD then and it’s still somewhere in my Top 10. Call this one a TIE in my book, making our current score:

    THEN: 4
    NOW: 5
    TIE: 6
  • Posts: 582
    I never fully appreciated Roger Moore’s version of Bond back in the day…he just didn’t impress me as a dangerous guy. Nowadays, I recognize that his was the proper Bond for its time…but those times were really pretty dopey. I was happy to see somebody else slip into the tuxedo, and I definitely liked the fact that Dalton’s stated intent was to bring Bond back to his Fleming roots.

    There’s just sooo much to love about this movie! The PTS, with Dalton himself hanging on to the careening jeep…the whole defection scene, with its recurring “Need to know” put-down…Bond’s relationship with Kara, one of the most believable romances in the entire series to these weary old eyes…Necross’ fights in the kitchen and hanging from the net in the plane…Bond’s confrontation with Pushkin in the hotel room and his subsequent “assassination” of the General at the conference…and yes, I LIKE Bond working with the mujahadeen! It’s totally in keeping with the politics of its time…but even then I thought, “*Y’know, I can see that this alliance might not be considered such a good idea at some point in the future!”

    Yes, the main villains are kind of weak…yes, a diamonds for opium for weapons plot isn’t exactly on the “atom bomb in Fort Knox” level as villainous schemes go…yes, John Terry is the lamest Felix Leiter ever (you’re finally off the hook, Cec Linder!) but I don’t care. I loved TLD then and it’s still somewhere in my Top 10. Call this one a TIE in my book, making our current score:

    THEN: 4
    NOW: 5
    TIE: 6

    On the Mujahadeen - It was the Americans that funded, trained and aided them during the war with the Soviets. And then withdrew financing once the Soviet threat was dealt with. So in part Bond isn't tainted by the sense that Americans shot themselves in the foot a bit by in some way contributing to an increase in anti-Americanist feeling the Middle East. But I can't imagine Kamran/Art Malik becoming a terrorist!
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 7,948
    Thing is that the 'mujahedeen'didn't really exist. It was astamp-on-them-all name used to identify the 'resistance', agianst the Soviets. Problem was that in a tribal culture there are so many different groups 'resisting'the opposing forces you can't really put them all together at all. It's another example of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' politics that backfired as that 'friend'turned enemy (already was) when the other one dissapeared. Or at least some of these groups. That doesn't mean the fictional Kamran Sha would be part of one of those groups.
  • Posts: 582
    Thing is that the 'mujahedeen'didn't really exist. It was astamp-on-them-all name used to identify the 'resistance', agianst the Soviets. Problem was that in a tribal culture there are so many different groups 'resisting'the opposing forces you can't really put them all together at all. It's another example of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' politics that backfired as that 'friend'turned enemy (already was) when the other one dissapeared. Or at least some of these groups. That doesn't mean the fictional Kamran Sha would be part of one of those groups.

    That was kind of the point I was making - i.e. doesn't mean Bond was working with future terrorists, but it is still a bit cringy. But, having said that the Russians would have been Bond's allies during WWII and then of course his enemies when he worked as a spy post-WWII.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Spies work with whoever is available to get the job done.

    Still, quite cringeworthy.
  • Posts: 582
    The heroes and villains all get mixed up.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 7,948
    As long as you don't start talking in shades of grey......
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,418
    We're moving onto Licence to Kill at the weekend peeps. Anymore thoughts on the TLD?

    In my view The Living Daylights has probably the best sequence of scenes in a Bond film, up until the Afghan fight. It has all the prerequisite elements - danger, suspense, intrigue, cold war thrills and even a little bit of romance. Dalton is just fantastic, all supported on a real Flemingesque template and enlivened by the cinematic Bondian troupes.
  • BennyBenny In the shadowsAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 14,811
    Having been on holiday, I've sadly missed out on AVTAK and TLD, but will post my thoughts on them now in order to contribute to every film thus far. Would be a pity to miss any on this wonderful thread.

    A View To A Kill


    Then
    I remember loving AVTAK when it came out in '85, I was ten at the time and having enjoyed Octopussy so much and being introduced to Bond with Spy Who Loved Me, a brand new Bond film with Roger Moore was more than likely going to be a winner. I loved the PTS and the stuff in Paris with the Eiffel Tower and Mayday. It followed the formula I was used too. Had some good villains in Max Zorin and Mayday, along with set pieces that I was akin too. The score was fantastic, it ticked all the right boxes for me at the time.

    Now

    On reflection AVTAK is not quite as good the older I get. I still enjoy it, but the age of Roger Moore (and his stuntmen) is a little too much. One film too far. And it's not just Moore. The Mi6 staff are all pensioners. It's hard to see them as a threat to Zorin and his goons.
    The story is rather disjointed, the first half concentrates on Zorin using steroids to cheat at horse racing. The second half is about his plan to detonate a bomb in the San Andreas fault causing an earthquake that will wipe out Silicon Valley leaving him the monopoly in Microchip manufacturing.
    The villains are one of the saving graces for the film. Chris Walken is his ever brilliant self. Roger Moore still gives a worthy performance and although he's a little long in the tooth, he's still a joy to watch. John Barry gives us one of his most beautiful scores.
    The problem is it's all starting to look a little old and tired. Not just the cast. The formula, the set pieces. Time for some new blood.
    A definite then from me.

    Then - 9
    Now - 8

    Will return later to complete TLD.
  • Posts: 6,727
    Ah, The Living Daylights. Or should I say Aha, The Living Daylights? Ok, I wont.
    Always will be a fan of Roger Moore, but boy was I pumped for this.
    Summer of 87 couldn't get here quick enough!
    Timothy Dalton IS James Bond! From that stunning opening shot of him, to the final embrace with Kara, this was a wonderful Bond film. Great great scenes and set pieces. One after another, and solidly linked with Daltons explosive performance!
    It was the little subtleties that he put into the part, a suspicious look to Koskov when dictating his smiert spionem theory, or exhaling smoke (the pc brigade put an end to this, but Flemings Bond was a heavy smoker, and they were right to allow Dalton to smoke) in disbelief at him. Actively listening to other actors speak, reacting to a substandard mouthful of coffee, following this was the bursting of the balloon in utter rage moment. Fantastic! Oh, and then there was that wonderful scene with Pushkin in the hotel room. I could go on and on! John Barrys score, Glens solid Direction! Its no. 2 on my all time favourite Bond movies. Never get tired of watching it or enjoying Daltons portrayal!
    So
    THEN 4
    NOW 5
    TIE 7
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,418
    It's time to move on to....

    Licence to Kill

    Then –
    This was amongst the batch of 80's Bond films I got on VHS. Yet, funnily enough, this was one of the films that I remember on ITV's “007 Heaven”, back in the late 90's. Compared with such films as Goldfinger and You Only Live Twice, this was a mature, serious picture. Which suited me just fine – I always was a serious child.

    Now –
    As I get older, Licence To Kill just keeps getting better. Just behind the top three Bond films – From Russia With Love, On Her Majesty's Secret Service and Casino Royale.

    Then -
    Now - 1
    Tie -
  • Posts: 485
    Then -
    Now -2
    Tie -
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The trailer for this took me by surprise, it looked very dark and serious.I was very much looking forward to it. Upon seeing it I enjoyed it a lot, but felt it wasn t quite up there with TLD.

    After so many rewatches of both, LTK is probably ever so slightly ahead of the first Dalton film for me now. The script being made for him is one of the reasons.

    Then-
    Now-3
    Tie-
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,882
    My feelings have not changed much on LTK over the years. I still think that amongsrt other things, it has 3 of the best action sequences of the series (the opening aerial sequence, the Wavekrest scene in the middle, and the climactic Tanker chase). Both Dalton films have fought for #1 position, but currently that honour goes to TLD.

    Then-
    Now-3
    Tie-1
  • Posts: 4,325
    I saw Licence to Kill originally back in August 1998 when I was 12 after taping it from an ITV Bank Holiday showing. I really enjoyed it. I think my expectations were low because I had heard rumours that Dalton was so bad and that's why there was a 6 year gap to GoldenEye. But I found nothing could be further from the truth. I'd see TLD on the previous May Bank Holiday. Obviously I was struck by the darker side, but with liking that I did miss the fantastical elements that had been in the 60s Bonds. E,g, the outlandish villains.

    Over the years, having then seen some of the action films of the 1980s, it did feel that whilst it had something more of Fleming it also lost a bit too. Maybe it's just the North American settings in the film but there is something about it that feels like those films - with Michael Kamen doing the score.

    Having said that I think LTK has grown in my estimation. Whilst I still have those misgivings, I really like this Bond. Love the way they used the narrative device of I think Roshomon.

    Then -
    Now - 4
    Tie 1
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,448
    It took me two viewings to get used to LTK. It took me two more to notice how much I really love it. With Q's involvement as my only 'beef', I'd say LTK is a success for me. And seeing how much the grittier Bond is nowadays celebrated while back then that grittier Bond was met with unjustified criticism, I'm even more respectful of LTK.

    Then -
    Now - 5
    Tie 1
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