Has Bond become a bit neo-fascist?

13

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  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited December 2012 Posts: 1,243
    Politicians today with very few exceptions are clueless, hence the mess the world finds itself. With regards Afghanistan does anyone here not think that as soon as the British & US Forces leave that within months the Taliban will be back in control & even more determined to help al-Qaeda seek revenge on the West. All those brave men & women from our armed forces who made the ultimate sacrifice will have done so for nothing.

    You are clued on for sure. All the bloodshed and trillion plus spent by the USA alone and the Taliban are strong as ever. So all those men and women who have died or are injured horrifically have done it for what? Some badly thought out strategies and goals by men in suits.

    Did you hear many months ago that our governments are secretly negotiating with The Taliban?

    If you ask me, I think some politicians need to go out there for themselves and taste some tough reality of their stupid policies. That US Ambassador who got butchered to death by a mob in Libya was killed by the same insurgents who he backed. Ironic, but what do you expect when you trumpet Al-Qaeda sympathisers.

    I mean you saw those Libyan rebels and tell me the difference to The Taliban? Apart from dress sense? :)

    Do some of our politicians like William Hague in the UK forget what the war on terror was about or against whom. Morons who need their sorry butts sent over and taste bitter reality without their priviledge of protection. Then you would see a change in policy and better solutions.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Politicians today with very few exceptions are clueless, hence the mess the world finds itself.
    A more frighting thought to me is that they aren't all clueless, and that many scenarios are playing just as they were designed to, to keep conflict & fear alive globally, to be able to retain as much power & control as possible. Face it, if world peace were to be coming about, what the Hell would the leaders of the planet do? That's right, they be doing mundane stuff like arranging better communications at the UN, seeking trade agreements & so on. And how do the richest 1% at the top STAY at the top if not for war? That's right, they really couldn't. War profits are essential to the insanely wealthy. And how do you distract the populace without fear of 'the enemy'? That's right, you are hard pressed to do so any other way.
    And a united & educated populace is THE LAST thing any ruling class wants.
  • If you want the ultimate irony, Bin Laden was trained by the CIA to fight the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the US deny this saying there's no evidence, no, because it was burnt the minute 9/11 happened, so when he flipped it & used their 101 playbook against the USA.
    "My-O-My" to quote M, I miss the bloody cold war, you always new where you were with the USSR.
    chrisisall wrote:
    Politicians today with very few exceptions are clueless, hence the mess the world finds itself.
    A more frighting thought to me is that they aren't all clueless, and that many scenarios are playing just as they were designed to, to keep conflict & fear alive globally, to be able to retain as much power & control as possible. Face it, if world peace were to be coming about, what the Hell would the leaders of the planet do? That's right, they be doing mundane stuff like arranging better communications at the UN, seeking trade agreements & so on. And how do the richest 1% at the top STAY at the top if not for war? That's right, they really couldn't. War profits are essential to the insanely wealthy. And how do you distract the populace without fear of 'the enemy'? That's right, you are hard pressed to do so any other way.
    And a united & educated populace is THE LAST thing any ruling class wants.

    Interesting Point, your talking about the politics of fear, I do subscribe that concept exists, I believe it is standard practice for most current ruling democratic societies. The world leadership manipulates the media through policy & makes the people live in fear, look at the Daily Mail in the UK, if you believe them, many do, theirs a terrorist or Pedophile on every corner. The only way to fight back is through education & learning, never stop questioning, have an opinion, never accept anything at face value.

    "The highest patriotism is not a blind acceptance of official policy, but a love of one's country deep enough to call her to a higher plain"
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Bin Laden was trained by the CIA to fight the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the US deny this
    LOL, I wasn't aware my government was denying this, it's pretty much common knowledge here so I just assumed no official denial existed as it would seem rather silly.
    Oh well, it figures though.
  • Yes it's so comical, the official version goes "We (CIA) trained the Mujahideen fighters but did not have to our knowledge any contact with Osama bin Laden or any other insurgents during the campaign" BS or what, it's slightly reminiscent of Oliver North during the Iran/Contra hearings "To the best of my recollection Sir I don't remember".
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    "To the best of my recollection Sir I don't remember".
    Men In Black memory wipes are a handy tool.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Meant to post this here - what MI6 really gets up to:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/dec/13/libyan-dissident-mi6-aided-rendition
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 129
    Yes the pesky Men in Black!
  • Getafix wrote:
    Meant to post this here - what MI6 really gets up to:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/dec/13/libyan-dissident-mi6-aided-rendition

    This is what gets reported, imagine what doesn't!
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,962
    "We believe we can use them" is a bit of a lawyerly dodge.

    Takes one to know one. ;)
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited December 2012 Posts: 9,117
    This is a priceless line:

    'The government paid the sum by way of compensation and without admitting any liability.'

    Yeah just drop the bloke 2 mil out of the goodness of our hearts not that we did anything wrong of course. I would've said a 2 mil payout rather than going to trial is called 'an admission of guilt' but apparently not.
  • We like to feel we are modern & civilised in the west, but I think just because we've advanced technically we've not moved on much from the back stabbing era of the Roman Empire as far as our political system.
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 4,622
    I think it's quite clear from Fleming's brilliant novels, that Bond was fighting evil. Again to quote Schell, there is a certain ethos in Fleming, which is that evil will not stand.
    Bond of course was not popular with marxists, so they necessarily must try and twist and distort him into a "crypto-fascist."
    In the meantime Bond engaged and destroyed the fascists and tyrants of his day, the good folks at Soviet Smersh, along with numerous villains with Nazi pasts such as Drax, von Hammerstein (FYEO), Horst Uhlmann (TSWLM), ranking Spectre members (TB)
    Fleming's Bond was a blunt instrument in the war against fascism, marxism and other instruments of evil (gangsters, drug runners etc).
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    timmer wrote:
    Bond of course was not popular with marxists, so they necessarily must try and twist and distort him into a "crypto-fascist."
    Abuse of power of authority is inherently fascist, and those tendencies exist in every social system. To an extent, fascism is and always has been everywhere.
  • timmer wrote:
    I think it's quite clear from Fleming's brilliant novels, that Bond was fighting evil. Again to quote Schell, there is a certain ethos in Fleming, which is that evil will not stand.
    Bond of course was not popular with marxists, so they necessarily must try and twist and distort him into a "crypto-fascist."
    In the meantime Bond engaged and destroyed the fascists and tyrants of his day, the good folks at Soviet Smersh, along with numerous villains with Nazi pasts such as Drax, von Hammerstein (FYEO), Horst Uhlmann (TSWLM), ranking Spectre members (TB)
    Fleming's Bond was a blunt instrument in the war against fascism, marxism and other instruments of evil (gangsters, drug runners etc).

    I have always empathised with the quote that is at the end of the Holocaust exhibition at the War Museum in London.

    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men should do nothing.”
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 4,622
    I have always empathised with the quote that is at the end of the Holocaust exhibition at the War Museum in London.

    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men should do nothing.”
    Yes. Bond acts, and thank God for him and others like him. The rest of us sleep easier.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited December 2012 Posts: 17,687
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men should do nothing.”
    In this new hi-tech age of the 21st Century (and actually any age past or future), I'd change it a bit:
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men should be fooled into doing nothing.”

  • Posts: 5,745
    Right, because government only became corrupt this century. 8-|
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    Right, because government only became corrupt this century. 8-|
    Yes, I changed it before your post for more accuracy. :)>-
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 5,745
    chrisisall wrote:
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    Right, because government only became corrupt this century. 8-|
    Yes, I changed it before your post for more accuracy. :)>-

    Indeed you did. Really showed me for a fool.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    Really showed me for a fool.
    Not a bit of it; incomplete intel makes for misunderstanding. More my mistake than yours!
  • Posts: 533



    It certainly feels a long way from the cosy old naval officers' club that Bernard Lee oversaw. I guess the irony is that the end of SF suggests we're about to return to the good old days. What I still can't fathom is how intentional it was that MI6 should come across the way it did in SF - a little bit sinister and repressive.


    It's possible that MI6 was always a sinister surveillance organization . . . even in the so-called "good old days" of Bernard Lee. And what? Because M is now a former military officer and a man, the "good old days" have returned? Thank you for giving me another reason to dislike "Skyfall".
  • acoppolaacoppola London Ealing not far from where Bob Simmons lived
    edited December 2012 Posts: 1,243
    Talking of Dalton he said that Bond was not a paragon of virtue and only perceived as good because of the side he works for. But he is just as bad as the enemies he fights.

    Interesting, because that holds true now as much as ever. Some of us have learned how to read between the lines of what our media says and cannot really trust them for the full picture. Take the Murdoch organisation that owns Fox News. They follow the media networks agenda first and the truth if it fits that agenda.

    You people should watch Russia Today which is broadcast free and their take on Syria as well as Libya will shock you. No question, the western media has down played the reality and have been to put it mildly, been economical with the truth.

    The new Bond has been redesigned to take into account the contradictory nature of intelligence. They will get into bed with any unsavoury organisation if it suits our political objectives. Morality does not come into play.

    In fact when the CIA set up Al-Qaeda in the late seventies, they asked the Saudis for help in radicalising the Mujahadeen and make them believe it is a holy war. Why? Because they would fight the Russians better.

    The radical religiousness you see now has it's origins in that era. But our governments who depend on Saudi and Qatari investment like to keep that out of the headlines. Well, that is another reason why ratings for the mainstream media is on a down slide.
  • Posts: 140
    Good question Getafix.

    What is fascism? Or another way of putting it, how would you describe a fascist?

    Take the far-right 'Skinhead'. A skinhead is usually considered, intolerant, uncultured, a person who sees things in black and white both figuratively and literally. Someone who believes in a strong state, a state that controls its people through laws and the 'norm' (peer pressure) so to speak.

    New Bond is certainly less fun (as stated before) and a bit uncultured (I see a boat).

    Has Bond become a blunt, bland and slightly retarded (I see a boat) agent of state.

    Put it another way, would you invite New Bond to a dinner party?

    I would say no.
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 11,189
    I remember reading an interview with Fleming in which he said that "Bond was a man of little culture". However, while Bond did have a nasty streak, I never got the impression James was a full on thug. If there's any criticism of Craig it's that he's too "rough" and "working class".

    Personally I dont think Craig's Bond is any more or any less fascist than Fleming's character. Perhaps the people AROUND Bond are but not Bond himself.

    Bond himself should be cynical but fairly neutral on the political spectrum.

    Id actually say the terms "blunt" and "bland" fit Bond very well. One thing that struck me after listening to the audiobook of FRWL recently was how BORING the literary Bond was compared to other characters around him.
  • Posts: 5,802
    Bond has always been a bit uncultured. Not that he wasn't well-read, but mistake Maeterlinck for Metternich, as he did in YOLT...

    Plus, many times during the novels, Fleming himself noted that Bond was as bad as the ones he fought. It was pointed out by the police officer at the end of TSWLM? for example.
  • edited December 2012 Posts: 11,189
    TSWLM is the only novel I haven't read but tbh I never got that sense Bond was as bad as the people he fought. Was he REALLY as bad as Drax, Klebb, Grant, Le Chiffe, Mr Big and Scaramanga? I don't think so. Bond had some redeeming qualities, he could be gentle when he wanted to be (looking at Tanya in the train in FRWL) but had a darker side. The people I mention above had NO redeeming qualities.

    FRWL actually says at one point that "Bond had never killed in cold blood and didn't like watching" (just after Kerim has shot Krilencu).

    Pretty much all of Bonds enemies had great satisfaction in killing

    Fleming described Bond as "neither a good guy or a bad guy". His enemies were unquestionably bad in my view.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Yes old Bond was clearly on the side of the goodies, but Craig is much more ambiguous I reckon.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited February 2013 Posts: 28,694
    Getafix wrote:
    Yes old Bond was clearly on the side of the goodies, but Craig is much more ambiguous I reckon.

    Craig's Bond is about as loyal to England's cause as you can get. We see this most prominently in the last bit of QoS and in the entirety of Skyfall.
  • Posts: 2,081
    Getafix wrote:
    Yes old Bond was clearly on the side of the goodies, but Craig is much more ambiguous I reckon.

    Craig's Bond is about as loyal to England's cause as you can get. We see this most prominently in the last bit of QoS and in the entirety of Skyfall.

    Yes, Brady, absolutely.

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