Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 16,259
    mtm wrote: »
    I guess the issue was to make the ages work: Blofeld has to be roughly the same generation as Bond, so why would he kill an old guy? The foster brother thing does work for that and adds a level of nuttiness, I can see why they went for it in a way.

    Well, thinking about the original short story, Blofeld in his youth could have needed Oberhauser's help to locate a hidden treasure (say Nazi gold in an Austrian mountain), which he then used to invest in what would become Spectre.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,658
    Yeah, that’s nice, you’re probably right.
  • Bringing back Blofeld and Spectre the way that they did makes me think of the line from Jurassic Park.

    To paraphrase. Eon were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
  • edited November 23 Posts: 6,410
    I don’t mind it in this context. It feels like if they were going to bring Blofeld and SPECTRE back at all, the Craig era was the time to do it. Blofeld without any personal element between him and Bond is just another villain, and at least the connection with Vesper/the initial films gave them the creative opportunity. They just made some very strange decisions along the way.
  • Posts: 2,578
    Perhaps the problem is that they didn't want him to be just another villain. They wanted a Moriarty, but not the real one, the one from the pastiches.
  • Posts: 16,259
    Perhaps the problem is that they didn't want him to be just another villain. They wanted a Moriarty, but not the real one, the one from the pastiches.

    Ironically enough for Doyle, Moriarty was just another villain, initially, only a suitably brilliant one to kill Sherlock Holmes. It's only through adaptations and because of what Moriarty achieved that he became Holmes' nemesis, pretty much posthumously. And became the model for many villains.
    007HallY wrote: »
    I don’t mind it in this context. It feels like if they were going to bring Blofeld and SPECTRE back at all, the Craig era was the time to do it. Blofeld without any personal element between him and Bond is just another villain, and at least the connection with Vesper/the initial films gave them the creative opportunity. They just made some very strange decisions along the way.

    From CR, I always thought either Blofeld would be back, or if not him a crypto-Blofeld.
  • Posts: 133
    Ludovico wrote: »
    From CR, I always thought either Blofeld would be back, or if not him a crypto-Blofeld.
    It seems pretty obvious that was the plan with Quantum.

    But then they suddenly got the rights back and pulled the ol’ switcheroo.
  • Posts: 6,410
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Perhaps the problem is that they didn't want him to be just another villain. They wanted a Moriarty, but not the real one, the one from the pastiches.

    Ironically enough for Doyle, Moriarty was just another villain, initially, only a suitably brilliant one to kill Sherlock Holmes. It's only through adaptations and because of what Moriarty achieved that he became Holmes' nemesis, pretty much posthumously. And became the model for many villains.
    007HallY wrote: »
    I don’t mind it in this context. It feels like if they were going to bring Blofeld and SPECTRE back at all, the Craig era was the time to do it. Blofeld without any personal element between him and Bond is just another villain, and at least the connection with Vesper/the initial films gave them the creative opportunity. They just made some very strange decisions along the way.

    From CR, I always thought either Blofeld would be back, or if not him a crypto-Blofeld.

    True about Morairty. Personally I wouldn’t want Blofeld to become that recurring ‘villain of the week’ for Bond. I’d hope it’d be a long while before they get the opportunity to use him again.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 23 Posts: 19,658
    The Moriarty parallel is more apt than most times that’s invoked, because Doyle had Holmes detect Moriarty’s influence behind a number of the schemes he’d foiled in recent times, and that’s exactly what they attempted to do with Blofeld and Spectre supposedly being the author of all of James’ pain. Not necessarily a bad idea, just fumbled a bit.
    And it’s worth mentioning that Doyle hadn’t seeded Moriarty’s presence in the stories leading up to his first appearance: we just hear that he’s a kingpin of London crime in the first short story he appears in.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,582
    I must say I agree: the tanker chase in Licence to Kill is the biggest action finale. I think it's so satisfying because step by step the villains are eliminated until it is just Bond and Sanchez fighting mano a mano. You can really feel Sanchez start to unravel as he goes more and more mad; and as his life's work (his drugs) goes up in flames

    Add incredible explosions, a great score, some nice stunt driving and an always kinetic sequence and for me LTK has the greatest climax out of all of the Bond films.

    I must be one of the very few that find the Truck chase an unsatisfying climax. I never found it that exciting.

    When i first saw it i wanted something more personal between Bond and Sanchez. The two hanging off the back of a Tanker just seemed a waste of potential for a riveting showdown between them.
  • Posts: 16,259
    I must say I agree: the tanker chase in Licence to Kill is the biggest action finale. I think it's so satisfying because step by step the villains are eliminated until it is just Bond and Sanchez fighting mano a mano. You can really feel Sanchez start to unravel as he goes more and more mad; and as his life's work (his drugs) goes up in flames

    Add incredible explosions, a great score, some nice stunt driving and an always kinetic sequence and for me LTK has the greatest climax out of all of the Bond films.

    I must be one of the very few that find the Truck chase an unsatisfying climax. I never found it that exciting.

    When i first saw it i wanted something more personal between Bond and Sanchez. The two hanging off the back of a Tanker just seemed a waste of potential for a riveting showdown between them.

    You're not the only one: I often find truck and car chases kind of boring. Not sure why. Maybe because the characters get lost in the spectacle?
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,582
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I must say I agree: the tanker chase in Licence to Kill is the biggest action finale. I think it's so satisfying because step by step the villains are eliminated until it is just Bond and Sanchez fighting mano a mano. You can really feel Sanchez start to unravel as he goes more and more mad; and as his life's work (his drugs) goes up in flames

    Add incredible explosions, a great score, some nice stunt driving and an always kinetic sequence and for me LTK has the greatest climax out of all of the Bond films.

    I must be one of the very few that find the Truck chase an unsatisfying climax. I never found it that exciting.

    When i first saw it i wanted something more personal between Bond and Sanchez. The two hanging off the back of a Tanker just seemed a waste of potential for a riveting showdown between them.

    You're not the only one: I often find truck and car chases kind of boring. Not sure why. Maybe because the characters get lost in the spectacle?

    Exactly right. The characters did get lost somewhat in all the mayhem.

    I know Bond is destroying Sanchez's operation, but there's no real showdown between them. A brutal hand to hand combat would have been a more satisfying, with Sanchez aware of why Bond is trying to kill him.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 23 Posts: 19,658
    Yeah good point. Kind of interesting that LTK is maybe the one film where the villain isn’t aware that he’s battling Bond. Even right up to the point that he’s fighting Bond on the lorry: he knows Bond is an informer but he never realises that Bond has been behind the destruction of his entire operation- even when he’s on the conveyor belt, Bond is still tricking him. In a way it’s kind of a missed opportunity for him to be as angry with Bond and hate him as much as he could have done.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,582
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah good point. Kind of interesting that LTK is maybe the one film where the villain isn’t aware that he’s battling Bond. Even right up to the point that he’s fighting Bond on the lorry: he knows Bond is an informer but he never realises that Bond has been behind the destruction of his entire operation- even when he’s on the conveyor belt, Bond is still tricking him. In a way it’s kind of a missed opportunity for him to be as angry with Bond and hate him as much as he could have done.

    Yep. A quick glance at the lighter just doesn't do it for me.

    Sanchez finding out who Bond is would have made the stakes between them much more interesting.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 23 Posts: 19,658
    Yes it’s a shame, considering Sanchez is perhaps the most passionate bad guy, it would have been good to see him be allowed the full fury at Bond that knowledge of his actions would have given him.
    As you say, the lighter, although it’s a neat moment, is too brief as it’s unclear Sanchez even remembered Felix really.
  • Posts: 16,259
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah good point. Kind of interesting that LTK is maybe the one film where the villain isn’t aware that he’s battling Bond. Even right up to the point that he’s fighting Bond on the lorry: he knows Bond is an informer but he never realises that Bond has been behind the destruction of his entire operation- even when he’s on the conveyor belt, Bond is still tricking him. In a way it’s kind of a missed opportunity for him to be as angry with Bond and hate him as much as he could have done.

    I think they were going for a sort of Once Upon a Time in the West confrontation. Sanchez knows Bond is angry with him, but he has no idea why. I think it could have worked and I do like the display of the lighter at the end, it's the right level of bittersweet irony, but the action scene leading to it leaves me conpletely cold.
  • I think it would be hard to get that sort of scene without slowing the film and taking out some of its momentum.

    The payoff would be minimal because I think Sanchez would treat Bond pretty much the same as in the climax if he knew that Bond had stolen his money, tried to kill him, and turned his woman. I mean the lengths he went to deal with some random guy in the PTS and even a complete stranger in Felix Leiter (and also how he kills Truman-Lodge) show that even the smallest misstep gets a dramatic reaction. And from Sanchez's perspective, Bond has already done enough for him to go berserk: he's perhaps the second or third highly trusted lieutenant, and he's conspiring with the one remaining informant Sanchez hasn't killed.

    While I do agree that the lighter isn't good enough as a reveal, I don't a reveal any earlier in the film would have done much. Sanchez has dozens, if not hundreds, of Dellas and Felixes who he has taken out ruthlessly. Bond mentioning Felix anytime but before Sanchez's death and Sanchez would react with a blank face
  • Posts: 6,410
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah good point. Kind of interesting that LTK is maybe the one film where the villain isn’t aware that he’s battling Bond. Even right up to the point that he’s fighting Bond on the lorry: he knows Bond is an informer but he never realises that Bond has been behind the destruction of his entire operation- even when he’s on the conveyor belt, Bond is still tricking him. In a way it’s kind of a missed opportunity for him to be as angry with Bond and hate him as much as he could have done.

    I think they were going for a sort of Once Upon a Time in the West confrontation. Sanchez knows Bond is angry with him, but he has no idea why. I think it could have worked and I do like the display of the lighter at the end, it's the right level of bittersweet irony, but the action scene leading to it leaves me conpletely cold.

    I always feel the tanker chase is very Mad Max 2. Surprised more people don’t compare LTK’s final sequences to that film’s finale.
  • I always feel a tad bit let down at the lack of a physical confrontation between Bond and Sanchez - to really see these two men go at each other's throats beyond a few kicks on the back of a moving Tanker.

    I suppose that was one of the very few thing that 007 Legends did right when retelling the story - actually having Bond and Sanchez in a more intense confrontation.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,582
    I always feel a tad bit let down at the lack of a physical confrontation between Bond and Sanchez - to really see these two men go at each other's throats beyond a few kicks on the back of a moving Tanker.

    I suppose that was one of the very few thing that 007 Legends did right when retelling the story - actually having Bond and Sanchez in a more intense confrontation.

    The entire film is leading to this intense confrontation that never actually happens.

    Could have been one of the most enthralling fights of the series. Especially as Sanchez is physically Bond's equal..
  • I always feel a tad bit let down at the lack of a physical confrontation between Bond and Sanchez - to really see these two men go at each other's throats beyond a few kicks on the back of a moving Tanker.

    I suppose that was one of the very few thing that 007 Legends did right when retelling the story - actually having Bond and Sanchez in a more intense confrontation.

    The entire film is leading to this intense confrontation that never actually happens.

    Could have been one of the most enthralling fights of the series. Especially as Sanchez is physically Bond's equal..

    I have to agree - the film spends so much time emphasizing the similarities and differences between the two that what we get for a showdown between them feels a bit anti-climatic.

    That being said - I still love the tanker chase at the end of the film because of how exciting it gets and how those final explosions make for some of the best imagery in all of Bond imo. But in terms of action sequences and how they’re executed - I think Octopussy really stands out in terms of 80’s Bond.
  • Posts: 16,259
    Okay here's a controversial opinion and I think I might have mentioned it before: LTK is overrated by Bond fans (broadly speaking, as I know it has detractors), but underrated by moviegoers in general.
  • DaltonforyouDaltonforyou The Daltonator
    Posts: 985
    LTK has solid action but just doesn't feel enough like a Bond film for me. A little too chintzy, feels like it was made by the same team who did Roadhouse.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,875
    The bar fight is the most of the unnecessary and un-Bond like scene in the whole franchise
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,946
    DIIIIRRRTY LOVE!!!
  • Posts: 133
    LTK has solid action but just doesn't feel enough like a Bond film for me.

    I’ve always found this viewpoint odd because I find there’s more of a Fleming story in LtK than there is in a lot of Bond movies.
  • Posts: 2,578
    LTK is very Joel Silver but I don't think that's worse than copying Star Wars or Indiana Jones.

    In any case, it still has a lot of the Bond formula in it. LTK is similar enough to Thunderball.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 25,087
    LTK is very Joel Silver but I don't think that's worse than copying Star Wars or Indiana Jones.

    In any case, it still has a lot of the Bond formula in it. LTK is similar enough to Thunderball.

    Apart from the location, I see very few similarities between the films.
  • edited 9:34am Posts: 2,578
    I know LTK is mostly based on the LALD novel and The Hildebrand Rarity, but neither of them was the highest-grossing Bond film. A film we all recognize as Bond.

    The underwater scenes or the relationship between Lupe and Sanchez is very Bondian.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,940
    I never really understood why LTK isn't more broadly appreciated. It has a great story, superb action, one of the best villains, one of the best Bond girls and Tim Dalton. Even lesser liked aspects such as the score and the look & feel I think work very well.
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