Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 7,046
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It's either DAF or TMWTGG, yeah. Goodnight is maybe the worst, as the whole climax is kind of brought about and driven by her being inept (being pushed into the boot of Scaramanga's car so easily; she knocks the henchman into the reactor, unwittingly starting the destruction of the island) and the whole final tension set piece of Bond trying to remove the Solex before he's hit by a laser beam is created by her being stupid and bumping a button with her bum. For some reason both her and Tiffany end up in bikinis for the climaxes of their movies..?
    Bond is also incredibly sleazy towards Goodnight earlier in the film, trying to bed her to fill some time as she points out, and then putting her in a cupboard and making her listen to him shagging Andrea. Andrea herself doesn't get much better treatment, basically Scaramanga's sex slave, half-beaten up by Bond and then murdered. Bond even exclaims "Women!!" when he hears Goodnight has been kidnapped. The early 70s weren't good for Bond girls.
    Umm... I'm already dreading my soon rewatch of TMWTGG.

    As to your point @Daltonforyou for me beyond the feminism debate it's just that type of character isn't fun to watch, at least if you're gonna make the character an airhead try to give them *some* redeemable qualities, like that ending scene at the boat it just makes you groan how useless they make Tiffany look. It feels especially pointed in DAF because there seems to be no counterpoint of female competence in this movie. I guess the old lady who was helping smuggle diamonds?

    Like for example Paloma in NTTD was kinda giving Marilyn Monroe character vibes but as a brunette and she still kicked some ass, and stole the show for a lot of people.

    The weird thing is Tiffany starts out in Amsterdam as being shown as quite tough and capable, taking Bond’s fingerprint and all that. She gets dumber as the film goes on which feels really uneven and a bit cheap.

    I was just about to post this! Tiffany is great in Amsterdam, tough, and a bit in Vegas as well, but then the writing just goes off the cliff. Poorly acted and directed.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 7,046
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    The best action set pieces in all of the John Glen era isn’t found in LTK - but in Octopussy. From the pre title sequence - to the palace fight - to the train jumping - and finally the climax on Kamal Kahn’s getaway plane.

    Well I really like those scenes but nothing beats the tanker truck chase in LTK, best action scene of the franchise if you ask me.

    And who was in charge of that? Barbara Broccoli.
  • DaltonforyouDaltonforyou The Daltonator
    Posts: 984
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    The best action set pieces in all of the John Glen era isn’t found in LTK - but in Octopussy. From the pre title sequence - to the palace fight - to the train jumping - and finally the climax on Kamal Kahn’s getaway plane.

    Well I really like those scenes but nothing beats the tanker truck chase in LTK, best action scene of the franchise if you ask me.

    Why?
  • I must say I agree: the tanker chase in Licence to Kill is the biggest action finale. I think it's so satisfying because step by step the villains are eliminated until it is just Bond and Sanchez fighting mano a mano. You can really feel Sanchez start to unravel as he goes more and more mad; and as his life's work (his drugs) goes up in flames

    Add incredible explosions, a great score, some nice stunt driving and an always kinetic sequence and for me LTK has the greatest climax out of all of the Bond films.
  • Posts: 16,817
    The climax of LTK is probably my favorite as well. I really don't think any ending that came afterwards had as much adrenaline.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,935
    I must say I agree: the tanker chase in Licence to Kill is the biggest action finale. I think it's so satisfying because step by step the villains are eliminated until it is just Bond and Sanchez fighting mano a mano. You can really feel Sanchez start to unravel as he goes more and more mad; and as his life's work (his drugs) goes up in flames

    Add incredible explosions, a great score, some nice stunt driving and an always kinetic sequence and for me LTK has the greatest climax out of all of the Bond films.

    Very well put. I'd also add that it ends perfectly with Sanchez' fitting demise by Leiter's lighter, and Bond sitting against that rock looking at the field of battle sighing to himself as he reflects over what has been done.
  • edited November 21 Posts: 2,570
    Yes, LTK has a great climax. And the movie ends when it needs to end, unlike Octopussy or TLD.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,650
    Yeah TLD is a funny one in that regard: the Hercules stuff feels like it's the big third act action sequence, but is actually kind of the climax, but not quite. Then you have the Goldfinger-on-the-plane-style epilogue with Whittaker instead of a climax proper. I mean, it works, but it's hard to argue that LTK doesn't build to a more effective climax I think.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,935
    I like to draw a sports comparison between the two Dalton films.

    TLD is tennis: stylish and elegant, it oozes class in a traditional way. A beautiful thing to look at and it invites you to emerge in its atmosphere.
    LTK is football: rough around the edges but spectacular and an emotional rollercoaster. You'll be at the edge-of-your-seat and feel emotionally attached to the outcome.

    TLD is classy, LTK is passionate.

    I love them both, for different reasons.
  • edited November 21 Posts: 2,570
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah TLD is a funny one in that regard: the Hercules stuff feels like it's the big third act action sequence, but is actually kind of the climax, but not quite. Then you have the Goldfinger-on-the-plane-style epilogue with Whittaker instead of a climax proper. I mean, it works, but it's hard to argue that LTK doesn't build to a more effective climax I think.

    This kind of epilogue works well in some films (DAF) but not so well in others.
    If they had done it in LTK, they would have ruined the climax. I guess not having money is a good thing sometimes.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 25,082
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I like to draw a sports comparison between the two Dalton films.

    TLD is tennis: stylish and elegant, it oozes class in a traditional way. A beautiful thing to look at and it invites you to emerge in its atmosphere.
    LTK is football: rough around the edges but spectacular and an emotional rollercoaster. You'll be at the edge-of-your-seat and feel emotionally attached to the outcome.

    TLD is classy, LTK is passionate.

    I love them both, for different reasons.

    That's a great analogy, @GoldenGun. And I agree with your concluding remark.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,650
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah TLD is a funny one in that regard: the Hercules stuff feels like it's the big third act action sequence, but is actually kind of the climax, but not quite. Then you have the Goldfinger-on-the-plane-style epilogue with Whittaker instead of a climax proper. I mean, it works, but it's hard to argue that LTK doesn't build to a more effective climax I think.

    This kind of epilogue works well in some films (DAF) but not so well in others.
    If they had done it in LTK, they would have ruined the climax. I guess not having money is a good thing sometimes.

    Yes the action epilogue pops up a few times doesn't it; I guess it's kind of from Fleming, where the villain or henchman suddenly pops up on Bond on a train or his hotel room to get some sort of revenge for the scheme being ruined. I guess it's often a nice little extra treat for the audience just when they thought it was all over.
  • Posts: 16,251
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah TLD is a funny one in that regard: the Hercules stuff feels like it's the big third act action sequence, but is actually kind of the climax, but not quite. Then you have the Goldfinger-on-the-plane-style epilogue with Whittaker instead of a climax proper. I mean, it works, but it's hard to argue that LTK doesn't build to a more effective climax I think.

    This kind of epilogue works well in some films (DAF) but not so well in others.
    If they had done it in LTK, they would have ruined the climax. I guess not having money is a good thing sometimes.

    Yes the action epilogue pops up a few times doesn't it; I guess it's kind of from Fleming, where the villain or henchman suddenly pops up on Bond on a train or his hotel room to get some sort of revenge for the scheme being ruined. I guess it's often a nice little extra treat for the audience just when they thought it was all over.

    TLD had elements of this sort of epilogue, but it hasn't properly been used since TMWTGG, I believe. Which might explain why it hasn't been used in decades.
  • Posts: 2,570
    I think I've said this before, but Octopussy has more endings than The Lord of the Rings. Bond, let Kamal Khan escape, I want to go home.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 25,082
    AVTAK has two climaxes, in a sense, but I actually like them both. The Silicon Valley section is impressive, albeit brutal, and the Golden Gate section rocks. I have many negative things to say about the film, but the action in its second half is very well done.
  • Posts: 6,404
    LTK’s climax is pretty great, but as said it has a narrative which just naturally leads to that point.

    I suppose this is a controversial opinion in itself, but in that same way I’ve never understood some of the dislike for SF’s climax. I’d argue it’s foreshadowed effectively and gives us the showdown needed from the film. I think it might be due to the fact that a Bond film has this Straw Dogs type finale and gives us M’s death (the Quentin Tarantino critique I suppose!)
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 25,082
    007HallY wrote: »
    LTK’s climax is pretty great, but as said it has a narrative which just naturally leads to that point.

    I suppose this is a controversial opinion in itself, but in that same way I’ve never understood some of the dislike for SF’s climax. I’d argue it’s foreshadowed effectively and gives us the showdown needed from the film. I think it might be due to the fact that a Bond film has this Straw Dogs type finale and gives us M’s death (the Quentin Tarantino critique I suppose!)

    I think the SF climax is great. It's different from anything else we've seen in the series, and its "Home Alone" vibe isn't a problem for me at all. I rather like that Bond, M and Kincaid use their wits to defeat many of Silva's goons, against all odds no less. The death of M is a dramatic punch that hits hard but is dealt with beautifully.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 21 Posts: 19,650
    Oh I think SF's climax is pretty perfect, yeah. It works so well dramatically and tension-wise that we kind of don't even notice that Bond fails his primary mission, and still comes out of it like he's the victor! The whole film builds to that showdown at the house and it delivers.

    I wonder if Spectre could have worked with Hinx's train attack coming after the London finale, in a retro style. You need that dinner conversation between Bond and Madeline to plant the idea of him leaving the service, but other than that maybe it would work. As has been noted, Hinx attacking Bond at that point doesn't really make sense.
  • edited November 21 Posts: 2,570
    007HallY wrote: »
    LTK’s climax is pretty great, but as said it has a narrative which just naturally leads to that point.

    I suppose this is a controversial opinion in itself, but in that same way I’ve never understood some of the dislike for SF’s climax. I’d argue it’s foreshadowed effectively and gives us the showdown needed from the film. I think it might be due to the fact that a Bond film has this Straw Dogs type finale and gives us M’s death (the Quentin Tarantino critique I suppose!)

    I think it looks like it's from a completely different movie.

    In any case, endings with lots of gunfire are usually pretty boring, and this one is no different. Only M's death makes it memorable.

    Plus, Bond in the UK is not a good idea. It's not exotic.
  • edited November 21 Posts: 6,404
    007HallY wrote: »
    LTK’s climax is pretty great, but as said it has a narrative which just naturally leads to that point.

    I suppose this is a controversial opinion in itself, but in that same way I’ve never understood some of the dislike for SF’s climax. I’d argue it’s foreshadowed effectively and gives us the showdown needed from the film. I think it might be due to the fact that a Bond film has this Straw Dogs type finale and gives us M’s death (the Quentin Tarantino critique I suppose!)

    I think it looks like it's from a completely different movie.

    In any case, endings with lots of gunfire are usually pretty boring, and this one is no different. Only M's death makes it memorable.

    Plus, Bond in the UK is not a good idea. It's not exotic.

    Never gotten the impression it's from a different movie personally, but to each their own. A lot of good climaxes have lots of gunfire so I wouldn't say that's a rule of thumb (I suppose you can get climaxes that get a bit samey/don't have much tension to them, but I like how SF's climax movies through the space). I'd also say I love how Gothic looking and atmospheric Scotland looks in that final act, so I'm fine with it being the location.

    Anyway, I think it's a lot more satisfying than many Bond film climaxes. I'd take it over TB or SP any day.
    mtm wrote: »
    Oh I think SF's climax is pretty perfect, yeah. It works so well dramatically and tension-wise that we kind of don't even notice that Bond fails his primary mission, and still comes out of it like he's the victor! The whole film builds to that showdown at the house and it delivers.

    I wonder if Spectre could have worked with Hinx's train attack coming after the London finale, in a retro style. You need that dinner conversation between Bond and Madeline to plant the idea of him leaving the service, but other than that maybe it would work. As has been noted, Hinx attacking Bond at that point doesn't really make sense.

    I suppose the way I see it is Bond is one of the only characters in SF to be fully redeemed by the end. I guess Mallory ends up on top too (although he's not one of the main players, and you can argue he doesn't actually do anything wrong in the story, despite how distrustfully Bond and the audience view him for a chunk of the film). M and Silva both die as a consequence of their actions and personal failings, whereas Bond has spent the entire film effectively building himself up again after his self imposed, drunken exile. I don't see it as a failure per se for Bond. It's a bit of a last ditch, off the books effort all round by the time they go to Skyfall, and the priority was taking out Silva, with M being a lame duck. It'd actually be easier for everyone if she'd died earlier, awful as that sounds. There's a tinge of fatalism to it in that way, but it's quite an optimistic ending too in many ways.

    I think they'd have to do something different with the 'henchman coming back for a one off fight' ending to make it work, but I think it could have been, and would be cool to see again.
  • Posts: 16,251
    If Silva had killed her in London, then he and his crew might have had survived to create more havoc. And he only tries to commit suicide as a last attempt, when everything else failed. Therefore I always thought he would have lived longer, working for Spectre (or whoever was ready to pay him), wrecking revenge on the UK and MI6. Anyway, long story short, that's why I don't think Bond failed in SF: he got rid of the threat, he slew the dragon.

    Oh and I know I said it before, but I'll repeat it here: I think SF makes more sense with the SP retcons.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,650
    Yes you’re right, I’m being a bit simplistic: Bond is victorious over him.
    Ludovico wrote: »

    Oh and I know I said it before, but I'll repeat it here: I think SF makes more sense with the SP retcons.

    That’s interesting, I don’t think I have seen you say that. In what way are you thinking?
  • edited November 22 Posts: 16,251
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes you’re right, I’m being a bit simplistic: Bond is victorious over him.
    Ludovico wrote: »

    Oh and I know I said it before, but I'll repeat it here: I think SF makes more sense with the SP retcons.

    That’s interesting, I don’t think I have seen you say that. In what way are you thinking?

    Well, first it would make sense that such elite professional hacker as Silva would have clients or employers that are among the most powerful and wealthy criminals. So the retcon of him working for Spectre (in whatever capacity, employee or consultant) was perfectly justifiable and didn't really contradict anything in SF. Secondly, it makes more sense for the henchmen of Silva to be motivated to work for him by something else than a revenge that isn't their own to begin with, especially given how risky and uncertain the whole plot was. If Silva is merely their line manager, so to speak, or the operation is bankrolled by Spectre, then they are mercenaries for a bigger cause. Without SP, you have a bunch of mooks ready to serve a boss with a death wish with little to no incentives.
  • Posts: 6,404
    That makes sense to be fair. I actually don't think it's that big a deal that Silva's working (or indeed consulting or whatever) for SPECTRE. As you said it doesn't clash with anything in SF.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 22 Posts: 19,650
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes you’re right, I’m being a bit simplistic: Bond is victorious over him.
    Ludovico wrote: »

    Oh and I know I said it before, but I'll repeat it here: I think SF makes more sense with the SP retcons.

    That’s interesting, I don’t think I have seen you say that. In what way are you thinking?

    Well, first it would make sense that such elite professional hacker as Silva would have clients or employers that are among the most powerful and wealthy criminals. So the retcon of him working for Spectre (in whatever capacity, employee or consultant) was perfectly justifiable and didn't really contradict anything in SF. Secondly, it makes more sense for the henchmen of Silva to be motivated to work for him by something else than a revenge that isn't their own to begin with, especially given how risky and uncertain the whole plot was. If Silva is merely their line manager, so to speak, or the operation is bankrolled by Spectre, then they are mercenaries for a bigger cause. Without SP, you have a bunch of mooks ready to serve a boss with a death wish with little to no incentives.

    Yeah that’s pretty good.
    I actually wish they’d drawn a bigger line between the two than they did: Silva’s plan to humiliate MI6 and M actually makes more sense as the first stage of Blofeld & C’s destabilisation plan to take over the security services- MI6 is arguably weakened by Silva’s attacks which gives C the chance to step in.

    I don’t think it removes Silva’s ‘agency’ or whatever if he’s been bankrolled by Spectre: he has a genuine beef with M and both he and Spectre get something out of the plan. Plus I feel like he makes it clear he works for outside clients I think.
    You could have Lucia reveal some bit of evidence that Sciarra was meeting with Silva perhaps to make Bond draw the connection; and somehow that’s what DenchM knew about and why she put Bond onto Sciarra. That’s probably all extraneous plotting you don’t need, but it would tie it all together a bit more convincingly than some rings I think.
    Considering the plot of both films concerns MI6 itself being threatened, I think it’s kind of bonkers they didn’t tie them together more, it’s right there.
  • Posts: 6,404
    The irony is I can imagine they held off of those more direct story connections to make SP its own thing!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,650
    Yes I’m sure you’re right; if they had tied them in closer then it becomes a sequel rather than standalone popcorn thing, and plus Bond would be avenging M (as they were basically behind her death) which adds yet more complexity it perhaps doesn’t need. Also it’s a bit Spider Man 3, in the way that reveals that sandman was really to blame for Uncle Ben’s death, which feels a bit false.
    But then equally Bond doesn’t seem to care that Blofeld killed his foster dad, so maybe some anger over M’s death could have replaced that, and even the foster brother thing altogether.
  • edited November 22 Posts: 6,404
    I suppose at that point you may as well just adapt the Blofeld portion of the story. But yes, it's just one of the many quirks/odd aspects of SP's story! It's interesting thinking about how they got to where they did.
  • Posts: 16,251
    I always thought they could have made Blofeld kill Oberhauser and yet ditch the foster brother thing conpletely. It would have been far fetched, but less so.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,650
    I guess the issue was to make the ages work: Blofeld has to be roughly the same generation as Bond, so why would he kill an old guy? The foster brother thing does work for that and adds a level of nuttiness, I can see why they went for it in a way.
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