Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,872
    Ludovico wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Films in which I favour the second half more than the first (I'm not saying the second half is better, mind):
    • DN
    • FRWL
    • YOLT
    • OHMSS
    • LALD
    • TSWLM
    • MR
    • AVTAK
    • LTK
    • QOS

    For me, AVTAK as a much better first half than second. I'm not a fan of the movie, mind you, but at least in the first half there's Patrick Macnee and posh horseriding.

    Agreed. Once we arrive at Stacey's house I completely lose interest until the mine. AVTAK is odd because it definitely feels like two completely different films in one
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 7,038
    Ludovico wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Films in which I favour the second half more than the first (I'm not saying the second half is better, mind):
    • DN
    • FRWL
    • YOLT
    • OHMSS
    • LALD
    • TSWLM
    • MR
    • AVTAK
    • LTK
    • QOS

    For me, AVTAK as a much better first half than second. I'm not a fan of the movie, mind you, but at least in the first half there's Patrick Macnee and posh horseriding.

    Oh, completely agreed. The second half almost redeems itself with the Golden Gate finale. Almost. The rest of the stuff in SF is abysmal.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 25,052
    Both halfs of AVTAK are almost two different films. The first is about cheating at a game, the second about a plot to destroy Silicon Valley. Unlike with GF and the novel MR, it's hard for me to connect both sections as parts of the same story. At least the second part has more of lovely Tanya Roberts, solid action, more spectacle, and a pretty decent finale. Nothing about cheating at horseracing, which is a pretty thin issue for Bond to worry about. Overall, however, AVTAK is a very flawed film IMO, so the second half isn't exactly "perfect" either.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,613
    echo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Films in which I favour the second half more than the first (I'm not saying the second half is better, mind):
    • DN
    • FRWL
    • YOLT
    • OHMSS
    • LALD
    • TSWLM
    • MR
    • AVTAK
    • LTK
    • QOS

    For me, AVTAK as a much better first half than second. I'm not a fan of the movie, mind you, but at least in the first half there's Patrick Macnee and posh horseriding.

    Oh, completely agreed. The second half almost redeems itself with the Golden Gate finale. Almost. The rest of the stuff in SF is abysmal.

    Yes, I love AVTAK, but I find the San Fran stuff much flatter. The France section has real charm with Pat Mac, a bit of intrigue and tension, much nicer-looking locations, the Paris car chase is good fun etc. The tail end of the mine stuff and the Golden Gate is good, but I generally take the first half over the second.
  • Posts: 2,251
    Zorin would have been a lot more fun had Walker been 10 to 20 year older. Say, during his "More cowbell era."
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe Edward Berger for Bond 27
    Posts: 9,430
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Zorin would have been a lot more fun had Walker been 10 to 20 year older. Say, during his "More cowbell era."

    For some reason Walken was typecast for a while as an out of touch mogel. Maybe you mean like his Batman Returns character.
  • Posts: 2,251
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Zorin would have been a lot more fun had Walker been 10 to 20 year older. Say, during his "More cowbell era."

    For some reason Walken was typecast for a while as an out of touch mogel. Maybe you mean like his Batman Returns character.

    No memory of seeing that film. He became more interesting in hs later years.
  • edited November 17 Posts: 763
    Probably not a controversial one but is DAF the worst portrayal of Bond girls? Was Bond purposely written to be at his most mysogynistic in this one? He calls Tiffany to her face stupid and a bitch, I'm not even convinced he actually likes her so I'm surprised he's with her at the end, I guess she had to be to fulfill the typical romantic Bond ending. I know usually its the CGI paragliding or the double take pidgeon that take the cake as worst Bond scenes, but Tiffany falling off the ship by trying to shoot the gun has to be up there.
  • Posts: 16,233
    Probably not a controversial one but is DAF the worst portrayal of Bond girls? Was Bond purposely written to be at his most mysogynistic in this one? He calls Tiffany to her face stupid and a bitch, I'm not even convinced he actually likes her so I'm surprised he's with her at the end, I guess she had to be to fulfill the typical romantic Bond ending. I know usually its the CGI paragliding or the double take pidgeon that take the cake as worst Bond scenes, but Tiffany falling off the ship by trying to shoot the gun has to be up there.

    Yeah I don't think it's so controversial. In any case, I agree.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 17 Posts: 19,613
    It's either DAF or TMWTGG, yeah. Goodnight is maybe the worst, as the whole climax is kind of brought about and driven by her being inept (being pushed into the boot of Scaramanga's car so easily; she knocks the henchman into the reactor, unwittingly starting the destruction of the island) and the whole final tension set piece of Bond trying to remove the Solex before he's hit by a laser beam is created by her being stupid and bumping a button with her bum. For some reason both her and Tiffany end up in bikinis for the climaxes of their movies..?
    Bond is also incredibly sleazy towards Goodnight earlier in the film, trying to bed her to fill some time as she points out, and then putting her in a cupboard and making her listen to him shagging Andrea. Andrea herself doesn't get much better treatment, basically Scaramanga's sex slave, half-beaten up by Bond and then murdered. Bond even exclaims "Women!!" when he hears Goodnight has been kidnapped. The early 70s weren't good for Bond girls.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe Edward Berger for Bond 27
    edited November 17 Posts: 9,430
    I guess you could say that Skyfall comes high on that list too through a feminist lense, Severine is a trapped bird in a cage with no agency of her own, and her death is played off with a joke. The opening of the film comes down to M's shoddy decision-making and Moneypenny's poor rifle skills. Bond is making up for female incompetence throughout, including the busybody minister at the hearing, and the message at the end is all is well now the men are back in charge.
  • DaltonforyouDaltonforyou The Daltonator
    edited November 17 Posts: 971
    Probably not a controversial one but is DAF the worst portrayal of Bond girls? Was Bond purposely written to be at his most mysogynistic in this one? He calls Tiffany to her face stupid and a bitch, I'm not even convinced he actually likes her so I'm surprised he's with her at the end, I guess she had to be to fulfill the typical romantic Bond ending. I know usually its the CGI paragliding or the double take pidgeon that take the cake as worst Bond scenes, but Tiffany falling off the ship by trying to shoot the gun has to be up there.

    That's because she is stupid. But I agree, I prefer the Bond girls who aren't dunces. Although we should still be allowed to have some stupid Bond girls every once in a while. If we're not going to have any stupid female characters than we shouldn't have any stupid male characters either.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,613
    I guess you could say that Skyfall comes high on that list too through a feminist lense, Severine is a trapped bird in a cage with no agency of her own, and her death is played off with a joke. The opening of the film comes down to M's shoddy decision-making and Moneypenny's poor rifle skills. Bond is making up for female incompetence throughout, including the busybody minister at the hearing, and the message at the end is all is well now the men are back in charge.

    Yeah, I like SF and I don’t think any of that was intended, but it’s hard to argue that it can be phrased that way!
  • edited 12:46am Posts: 763
    mtm wrote: »
    It's either DAF or TMWTGG, yeah. Goodnight is maybe the worst, as the whole climax is kind of brought about and driven by her being inept (being pushed into the boot of Scaramanga's car so easily; she knocks the henchman into the reactor, unwittingly starting the destruction of the island) and the whole final tension set piece of Bond trying to remove the Solex before he's hit by a laser beam is created by her being stupid and bumping a button with her bum. For some reason both her and Tiffany end up in bikinis for the climaxes of their movies..?
    Bond is also incredibly sleazy towards Goodnight earlier in the film, trying to bed her to fill some time as she points out, and then putting her in a cupboard and making her listen to him shagging Andrea. Andrea herself doesn't get much better treatment, basically Scaramanga's sex slave, half-beaten up by Bond and then murdered. Bond even exclaims "Women!!" when he hears Goodnight has been kidnapped. The early 70s weren't good for Bond girls.
    Umm... I'm already dreading my soon rewatch of TMWTGG.

    As to your point @Daltonforyou for me beyond the feminism debate it's just that type of character isn't fun to watch, at least if you're gonna make the character an airhead try to give them *some* redeemable qualities, like that ending scene at the boat it just makes you groan how useless they make Tiffany look. It feels especially pointed in DAF because there seems to be no counterpoint of female competence in this movie. I guess the old lady who was helping smuggle diamonds?

    Like for example Paloma in NTTD was kinda giving Marilyn Monroe character vibes but as a brunette and she still kicked some ass, and stole the show for a lot of people.
  • DaltonforyouDaltonforyou The Daltonator
    edited 4:57am Posts: 971
    mtm wrote: »
    It's either DAF or TMWTGG, yeah. Goodnight is maybe the worst, as the whole climax is kind of brought about and driven by her being inept (being pushed into the boot of Scaramanga's car so easily; she knocks the henchman into the reactor, unwittingly starting the destruction of the island) and the whole final tension set piece of Bond trying to remove the Solex before he's hit by a laser beam is created by her being stupid and bumping a button with her bum. For some reason both her and Tiffany end up in bikinis for the climaxes of their movies..?
    Bond is also incredibly sleazy towards Goodnight earlier in the film, trying to bed her to fill some time as she points out, and then putting her in a cupboard and making her listen to him shagging Andrea. Andrea herself doesn't get much better treatment, basically Scaramanga's sex slave, half-beaten up by Bond and then murdered. Bond even exclaims "Women!!" when he hears Goodnight has been kidnapped. The early 70s weren't good for Bond girls.
    Umm... I'm already dreading my soon rewatch of TMWTGG.

    As to your point @Daltonforyou for me beyond the feminism debate it's just that type of character isn't fun to watch, at least if you're gonna make the character an airhead try to give them *some* redeemable qualities, like that ending scene at the boat it just makes you groan how useless they make Tiffany look. It feels especially pointed in DAF because there seems to be no counterpoint of female competence in this movie. I guess the old lady who was helping smuggle diamonds?

    Like for example Paloma in NTTD was kinda giving Marilyn Monroe character vibes but as a brunette and she still kicked some ass, and stole the show for a lot of people.

    They're fun to watch in that they serve as comic relief. Although I don't really see Tiffany Case kicking a whole lot of butt in that scene on the boat. Probably best left to Sean Connery.

    Also I think if you polled a lot of the guys who loved Paloma, it's because she was a fun, sexy character, not because she beat up 50 guys all at once. Not very realistic.


    There should and must be a happy middle between a complete dimwit and a Female Terminator, I agree.

    I think Natayla is a good one, the Mastersons, Vesper, Tatiana, etc. I think more often than not, Eon has made Smart, sexy Bond girls who aren't dummies or capable of beating up men.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,613
    mtm wrote: »
    It's either DAF or TMWTGG, yeah. Goodnight is maybe the worst, as the whole climax is kind of brought about and driven by her being inept (being pushed into the boot of Scaramanga's car so easily; she knocks the henchman into the reactor, unwittingly starting the destruction of the island) and the whole final tension set piece of Bond trying to remove the Solex before he's hit by a laser beam is created by her being stupid and bumping a button with her bum. For some reason both her and Tiffany end up in bikinis for the climaxes of their movies..?
    Bond is also incredibly sleazy towards Goodnight earlier in the film, trying to bed her to fill some time as she points out, and then putting her in a cupboard and making her listen to him shagging Andrea. Andrea herself doesn't get much better treatment, basically Scaramanga's sex slave, half-beaten up by Bond and then murdered. Bond even exclaims "Women!!" when he hears Goodnight has been kidnapped. The early 70s weren't good for Bond girls.
    Umm... I'm already dreading my soon rewatch of TMWTGG.

    As to your point @Daltonforyou for me beyond the feminism debate it's just that type of character isn't fun to watch, at least if you're gonna make the character an airhead try to give them *some* redeemable qualities, like that ending scene at the boat it just makes you groan how useless they make Tiffany look. It feels especially pointed in DAF because there seems to be no counterpoint of female competence in this movie. I guess the old lady who was helping smuggle diamonds?

    Like for example Paloma in NTTD was kinda giving Marilyn Monroe character vibes but as a brunette and she still kicked some ass, and stole the show for a lot of people.

    The weird thing is Tiffany starts out in Amsterdam as being shown as quite tough and capable, taking Bond’s fingerprint and all that. She gets dumber as the film goes on which feels really uneven and a bit cheap.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,570
    I guess you could say that Skyfall comes high on that list too through a feminist lense, Severine is a trapped bird in a cage with no agency of her own, and her death is played off with a joke. The opening of the film comes down to M's shoddy decision-making and Moneypenny's poor rifle skills. Bond is making up for female incompetence throughout, including the busybody minister at the hearing, and the message at the end is all is well now the men are back in charge.

    Some good points. Also, Bond jumping in the shower with Severine just feels grubby. If it was meant to be sexy, it was quite the opposite...
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