Was SPECTRE a disappointment?

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  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 25,027
    My issue with the color grading isn’t how it looks on an individual scene basis, it’s that the gold filtering is applied to every scene making the mood and feel of every location feel the same. Also the gold filtering feels a little less purposeful to me knowing that that’s kinda van Hoytema’s personal stamp on everything he was shooting then (I think he’s gotten better in recent years).

    The colour grading doesn't bother me. The 'script' however...

    Neither bothers me. The look of the film perfectly reflects the themes of death and loneliness that permeate the film. The script, while not without its flaws, is not a big problem for me either. I truly enjoy SP.
  • Posts: 8,625
    Watched it again yesterday, in 4k!
    Still enjoy it a lot! The pts is simply awesome!
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,926
    Spectre has one of the best pts in the series in my mind, Craig's swagger as Bond is only matched by early Connery. The pts score is superb too
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 14 Posts: 19,540
    I guess I wanted something a bit more from the helicopter action, although it's very good really; I suppose I was just expecting Bond to give us that little bit extra. Up until then, yeah, it's absolutely great. To think that Craig was doing all of that with effectively a broken leg is kind of mind-boggling.
  • Posts: 6,284
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Spectre has one of the best pts in the series in my mind, Craig's swagger as Bond is only matched by early Connery. The pts score is superb too

    The walk and long take is pretty great. I've had criticisms about it in the past. You can argue, for example, that it's all style and not much substance, or that they could have started at a later point just as easily, probably with Bond already on the roof.

    Honestly though, f*ck that. It looks cool, the music's great, Craig's swagger is wonderful to watch, and it's such a classic Bond scenario. It's a great way of communicating Bond's back and on top form after SF.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,540
    Yeah I don't get anyone saying it's style over substance: that's the whole point of Bond. Goldfinger isn't a deep film, but it's damned cool and looks and sounds great.
  • edited July 14 Posts: 6,284
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah I don't get anyone saying it's style over substance: that's the whole point of Bond. Goldfinger isn't a deep film, but it's damned cool and looks and sounds great.

    It's something I would have said not long ago. But it looks great, tells you what you need to know about Bond at this point (and to some extent what type of bond film we're going to see), and it gets the film going with style. And if it gets that invested, emotional reaction from the audience the creative choice has done its job.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 14 Posts: 19,540
    I was reading the earlier script draft of it a little while ago, and I had a very different reaction to the people on James Bond and Friends podcast when they talked about the same thing. The early draft has Bond blow up the building then chase Sciarra into an old school or something, where he sneaks around and meets a load of blokes playing cards, kills them, does a naff joke about smoking, some weird MI6 comedy character turns up in a Heineken truck, which Bond then drives through a wall, chases Sciarra some more... they all thought it was a shame it didn't get filmed because more stuff went on in it, but I thought it was a really lumpy sequence full of starts and stops. The PTS we have builds up rather gracefully and is a proper sweep of action and tension leading up to the helicopter stunts: it's a really nicely-handled sequence.

    And yeah, like you say, it's full of style- the parade was such a good idea. I know it cost megabucks but it makes the whole sequence. Bond stalking Sciarra through it is really nice and tense. I think Bond was going to chase him more at full speed, but Craig couldn't really run because of his leg injury, so it became more cat and mouse and I think it really works. There are shots where Bond is sprinting at full pelt, and if you look closely you can see it's a double in a Craig mask, obscured by various market stalls etc.
  • The only flaw in the pre-title sequence is that Bond has his jacket buttoned for the whole time!
  • MalloryMallory Rules Reastaurant
    edited July 15 Posts: 2,414
    I just wish the whole PTS looked as vibrant and colourful as the BTS footage of them shooting it is.

    Hoyte is a fantastic cinematographer but imo Spectre is not his best work.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,926
    Mallory wrote: »
    I just wish the whole PTS looked as vibrant and colourful as the BTS footage of them shooting it is.

    Hoyte is a fantastic cinematographer but imo Spectre is not his best work.

    I completely agree on this mate. I remember seeing pictures in the newspaper of them filming in Mexico and it looked so bright and colourful, it never really had that same spark on screen

    Have we ever found out why the filter was used in Spectre?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 21 Posts: 19,540
    I've just been thinking about fixing Spectre again as it came up in another thread: here's another thought- as the Oberhauser story comes from Octopussy, how about if the PTS hadn't been Bond pursuing Sciarra, but was based more around Hannes Oberhauser, as in the book? i.e Oberhauser's body is discovered, or a new bit of info about his death is discovered (or perhaps DenchM still leaves him a video message regarding it), and that's what sends Bond to go off on his own to investigate to Mexico? That way he's got a personal driving reason to go and it ties in more directly with the rest of the film. Given the film is adapting Octopussy to some extent I'd almost be surprised if there wasn't a draft which had it working this way as it would be as per Fleming.

    And instead of Blofeld being Bond's foster brother, he's actually just laying the trail about Hannes because he's aware of Bond and has found out this information about his childhood thanks to all of his surveillance techniques, and is trying to lure him into some sort of situation which will help his grand plan; so the slightly awkward brother stuff can go.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,926
    I do believe Spectre would have been a much better film had Daniel not torn his ACL during production. It seemed like a lot of things were rewritten around his injury, credit to him for continuing to film
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited October 27 Posts: 3,393
    Absolutely. All that sniping that we used to hear from some quarters about how 'Daniel Craig hates James Bond' wilfully ignores the way that Dan showed his commitment by going over and above for Bond, time after time.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 25,027
    Venutius wrote: »
    Absolutely. All that sniping that we used to hear from some quarters about how 'Daniel Craig hates James Bond' wilfully ignores the way that Dan showed his commitment by going over and above for Bond, time after time.

    Agreed. I recall some folks screaming that Craig wasn't "fit" enough for Bond because he got injured during the filming of some amazing stunts. That comes from people who most likely wouldn't dare to jump over a fence.
  • Posts: 1,992
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    Absolutely. All that sniping that we used to hear from some quarters about how 'Daniel Craig hates James Bond' wilfully ignores the way that Dan showed his commitment by going over and above for Bond, time after time.

    Agreed. I recall some folks screaming that Craig wasn't "fit" enough for Bond because he got injured during the filming of some amazing stunts. That comes from people who most likely wouldn't dare to jump over a fence.

    Brosnan also was injured several times on his pictures, hurting his leg, knee or ankle and he blamed himself for not stretching properly beforehand. Doesn't these actors' commitments make it a nice change from back in the days when the critics complained Moore was an occasional stand-in for the stuntmen?
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,859
    I apologize if this was ever posted. However all of these would have drastically changed SPECTRE

    https://notperfectedyet.wordpress.com/2020/07/23/five-changes-to-the-spectre-script-that-could-have-improved-the-film/
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,540
    Interesting, thanks for that, I certainly hadn't seen it before. As you say, those changes are pretty drastic, to the extent I'm not really sure what's left in the film if all of those changes are made as none of the sequences currently in it would fit in that version as far as I can make out.
    Having Mr White in the opening is an interesting idea, I guess that could work.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 6 Posts: 19,540
    mtm wrote: »
    I've just been thinking about fixing Spectre again as it came up in another thread: here's another thought- as the Oberhauser story comes from Octopussy, how about if the PTS hadn't been Bond pursuing Sciarra, but was based more around Hannes Oberhauser, as in the book? i.e Oberhauser's body is discovered, or a new bit of info about his death is discovered (or perhaps DenchM still leaves him a video message regarding it), and that's what sends Bond to go off on his own to investigate to Mexico? That way he's got a personal driving reason to go and it ties in more directly with the rest of the film. Given the film is adapting Octopussy to some extent I'd almost be surprised if there wasn't a draft which had it working this way as it would be as per Fleming.

    And instead of Blofeld being Bond's foster brother, he's actually just laying the trail about Hannes because he's aware of Bond and has found out this information about his childhood thanks to all of his surveillance techniques, and is trying to lure him into some sort of situation which will help his grand plan; so the slightly awkward brother stuff can go.

    Okay, here's an expansion of that Octopussy idea: how about if Blofeld lays a trail of breadcrumbs for Bond to follow. Hannes Oberhauser's body has been found, Bond goes to Mexico or wherever off the books to deal with Smythe (let's say is his name) who the trail leads to. Bond is disposed to kill the guy out of revenge but at the last minute decides not to (maybe the message from DenchM tells him not to take everything at face value?). What he doesn't know is that Smythe is some vitally important diplomat or something, and an MI6 agent killing him would start international destabilisation. Blofeld is basically exploiting the Oberhauser situation as part of his plan to ensure that he can take control of MI6 and make Nine Eyes go live.
  • Posts: 6,284
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I've just been thinking about fixing Spectre again as it came up in another thread: here's another thought- as the Oberhauser story comes from Octopussy, how about if the PTS hadn't been Bond pursuing Sciarra, but was based more around Hannes Oberhauser, as in the book? i.e Oberhauser's body is discovered, or a new bit of info about his death is discovered (or perhaps DenchM still leaves him a video message regarding it), and that's what sends Bond to go off on his own to investigate to Mexico? That way he's got a personal driving reason to go and it ties in more directly with the rest of the film. Given the film is adapting Octopussy to some extent I'd almost be surprised if there wasn't a draft which had it working this way as it would be as per Fleming.

    And instead of Blofeld being Bond's foster brother, he's actually just laying the trail about Hannes because he's aware of Bond and has found out this information about his childhood thanks to all of his surveillance techniques, and is trying to lure him into some sort of situation which will help his grand plan; so the slightly awkward brother stuff can go.

    Okay, here's an expansion of that Octopussy idea: how about if Blofeld lays a trail of breadcrumbs for Bond to follow. Hannes Oberhauser's body has been found, Bond goes to Mexico or wherever off the books to deal with Smythe (let's say is his name) who the trail leads to. Bond is disposed to kill the guy out of revenge but at the last minute decides not to. What he doesn't know is that Smythe is some vitally important diplomat or something, and an MI6 agent killing him would start international destabilisation. Blofeld is basically exploiting the Oberhauser situation as part of his plan to ensure that he can take control of MI6 and make Nine Eyes go live.

    Ooh, I like that! It gives Blofeld (and actually Bond) a bit more agency in the story.

    I'm sure it could even be ironed into a future Bond film.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,540
    Thanks! Yeah I'm not sure how it fully works; you could even have Moneypenny asking Bond why he didn't kill Smythe and he could play the message from DenchM, but in this one she tells him to tread carefully or something and that made him think twice. Or: maybe she told him to kill this Sciarra guy as in the film, and Bond happens to see him with Smythe; which he wasn't expecting, so that makes him suspect something is going on. He kills Sciarra, goes to the funeral etc.

    But yeah, I did think that someone exploiting Bond's history to try and make him kill someone is an idea you could potentially still use in a future story.

    I do like the way, incidentally, Mr White's death in Spectre is basically an adaptation of Bond going to see Smythe in Fleming's Octopussy.
  • edited November 6 Posts: 6,284
    mtm wrote: »
    Thanks! Yeah I'm not sure how it fully works; you could even have Moneypenny asking Bond why he didn't kill Smythe and he could play the message from DenchM, but in this one she tells him to tread carefully or something and that made him think twice. Or: maybe she told him to kill this Sciarra guy as in the film, and Bond happens to see him with Smythe; which he wasn't expecting, so that makes him suspect something is going on. He kills Sciarra, goes to the funeral etc.

    But yeah, I did think that someone exploiting Bond's history to try and make him kill someone is an idea you could potentially still use in a future story.

    I do like the way, incidentally, Mr White's death in Spectre is basically an adaptation of Bond going to see Smythe in Fleming's Octopussy.

    You'd have to have SPECTRE coming up with a contingency plan after Bond doesn't kill 'Smythe' or whoever, although that may well give us the SPECTRE meeting we needed in that film (Bond eavesdropping isn't quite as compelling as SPECTRE plotting some intricate plan independently and showing the audience how dangerous they are in isolation). Or perhaps 'Smythe' could have been killed by a SPECTRE operative during the Mexico sequence when Bond doesn't follow through and have framed him subsequently/have set the whole story in motion. Bond would have been framed/suspended and investigated for the this personal killing and have gone on his own to figure out what has happened, obviously running into White and Swan along the way.
  • NoTimeToLiveNoTimeToLive Jamaica
    Posts: 182
    Some pretty good ideas there.

    Recently I realized what probably irks me the most about Oberhauser: he never, ever cares about SPECTRE's schemes.

    The first time we see him, SPECTRE’s leaders report their deeds and update him on recent events. Blofeld completely ignores them, and his only dialogue focuses on Bond.

    Then Bond shows up at his lair and all dialogue focuses on Blofeld's relationship with Bond and Madeleine. He babbles a couple of things about "information being everything", but then his speech shifts to him being the author of all his pain. He doesn't seem to care in the slightest about Nine Eyes, and even at the end it's only C who tries to move their plan forward, with Blofeld only being interested in taunting Bond (and Madeleine).

    Even NTTD follows this pattern, as Blofeld's only plan revolves around killing Bond (first in Matera, then at his birthday), and then taunting Bond again, though I guess this is a consequence of Safin hijacking his plans. This is partly why, as much as I loved Rami Malek's performance in NTTD, I kind of wish Blofeld had escaped Belmarsh and been the main villain in NTTD.

    Granted, Silva also did this, but in his case his only goal was to get his revenge on M. Blofeld, as the leader of SPECTRE, supposedly has different goals, but the moment Bond shows up at the meeting in Rome he only seems to care about taunting Bond, which makes it feel as if Blofeld's only goal in life was being "the author of all his pain". Him having some evil monologues (like he does in Fleming's novels) about what he could achieve with Nine Eyes would have made him more appealing as a villain.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited November 6 Posts: 19,540
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Thanks! Yeah I'm not sure how it fully works; you could even have Moneypenny asking Bond why he didn't kill Smythe and he could play the message from DenchM, but in this one she tells him to tread carefully or something and that made him think twice. Or: maybe she told him to kill this Sciarra guy as in the film, and Bond happens to see him with Smythe; which he wasn't expecting, so that makes him suspect something is going on. He kills Sciarra, goes to the funeral etc.

    But yeah, I did think that someone exploiting Bond's history to try and make him kill someone is an idea you could potentially still use in a future story.

    I do like the way, incidentally, Mr White's death in Spectre is basically an adaptation of Bond going to see Smythe in Fleming's Octopussy.

    You'd have to have SPECTRE coming up with a contingency plan after Bond doesn't kill 'Smythe' or whoever, although that may well give us the SPECTRE meeting we needed in that film (Bond eavesdropping isn't quite as compelling as SPECTRE plotting some intricate plan independently and showing the audience how dangerous they are in isolation). Or perhaps 'Smythe' could have been killed by a SPECTRE operative during the Mexico sequence when Bond doesn't follow through and have framed him subsequently/have set the whole story in motion. Bond would have been framed/suspended and investigated for the this personal killing and have gone on his own to figure out what has happened, obviously running into White and Swan along the way.

    That’s nice, yeah, I like that a lot with the Spectre operative doing it anyway. You could have Moneypenny investigating what Bond is up to, and uncovering the Oberhauser thing and confronting him with it, thereby informing the audience and letting us in on it. And of course when she hears his side of things she trusts him on it.
    Granted, Silva also did this, but in his case his only goal was to get his revenge on M. Blofeld, as the leader of SPECTRE, supposedly has different goals, but the moment Bond shows up at the meeting in Rome he only seems to care about taunting Bond, which makes it feel as if Blofeld's only goal in life was being "the author of all his pain". Him having some evil monologues (like he does in Fleming's novels) about what he could achieve with Nine Eyes would have made him more appealing as a villain.

    Yeah, you’re right. There’s good stuff in Spectre, but the elements aren’t tied together enough. Blofeld shows no interest in his scheme to take over the world, as you say; Blofeld and C are working together but we never see them share a room or speak to each other (and Bond only meets C once); Blofeld killed Bond’s foster father and was his adoptive brother but Bond never shows any emotion or interest in either of those aspects etc. Without joining all these bits up, the motivations and drives behind everything don’t really register. For example there’s no doubt that Blofeld and C are working together, it is spelt out, and yet I never really feel it.
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