James Bond books edited to remove racist references

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  • Posts: 6,248
    Revelator wrote: »
    There are annotated editions of authors like Hemingway, Faulkner, and Fitzgerald, and those authors are generally considered classics rather than museum pieces. I also think that someone reading Fleming for the first time will very quickly sense that the books are over 60 years old and contain references to people, concepts, and objects unfamiliar to many modern readers. So I agree that IFP is fighting a losing battle, and should emphasize the "classic" angle rather than the "relevant" one (especially since there's still plenty left in the books to complain about). After all, editions like the Annotated Sherlock Holmes have done very well. Broadview Press has already issued a fine annotated edition of Casino Royale, and I look forward to more after the books enter public domain. Griswold's book of Annotations and Chronologies has already done a lot of the work for future editors of Fleming, but I look forward to seeing what they'll do.

    100% agreed. Annotated is probably a better description than what I put, but that's the idea. There are 'classic' books I fell in love with through reading the annotated versions of them, and I'm sure future readers wanting to dive into Fleming would get something out of it too. I actually didn't know CR already had an annotated version!
  • DaltonforyouDaltonforyou The Daltonator
    Posts: 933
    Just leave the novels as Fleming wrote them. I don't need extra bells and whistles tacked on to it to please Mary Sue.
  • edited October 30 Posts: 2,997
    007HallY wrote: »
    100% agreed. Annotated is probably a better description than what I put, but that's the idea. There are 'classic' books I fell in love with through reading the annotated versions of them, and I'm sure future readers wanting to dive into Fleming would get something out of it too. I actually didn't know CR already had an annotated version!

    Only available in Canada, sadly. A very kind member of this board sent me a copy and I will (someday, inshallah!) post a review here. In the meantime, I recommend Griswold's book to anyone who doesn't have it. I don't find the chronologies useful, but the annotations are very valuable. The website Fleming's Bond also has some useful annotations with images. Fleming wrote about a now-vanished world, and even many of his consumer good references could use annotation, let alone his geopolitical ones (POUM anyone?).

  • edited October 30 Posts: 6,248
    I think it plays into a bigger issue of how we treat these books. They're so culturally significant (as much, if not more so than Hemingway and Faulkner I'd argue). There's so much imagination, wonderful writing, and even pieces of history in them that anyone can see in them today. They deserve to be read and remembered, especially by Bond fans who love the films, video games, and even the works such as Young Bond IFP have brought out. It's simply the case they'll never be viewed as what they were when they were released. They're from a different time, and it not only becomes apparent but ever so slightly alienating when a reader quickly realises this, and I as a reader of these books from age 15 can attest to that (not in a bad way - they're just from a different era and require some context). The most we can do is to try to contextualise it for those readers interested, not change it in minor ways to make it 'palatable' for some non-existent audience. Anyway, what's the harm in releasing an annotated series? Any reader can decide to read from an older edition if they dislike it, and for those interested it's something of a gift.

    That's what we do when we see books or authors as significant based on their work. We preserve their work and comment on it. I don't see why it should be different for Fleming.
    Revelator wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    100% agreed. Annotated is probably a better description than what I put, but that's the idea. There are 'classic' books I fell in love with through reading the annotated versions of them, and I'm sure future readers wanting to dive into Fleming would get something out of it too. I actually didn't know CR already had an annotated version!

    Only available in Canada, sadly. A very kind member of this board sent me a copy and I will (someday, inshallah!) post a review here. In the meantime, I recommend Griswold's book to anyone who doesn't have it. I don't find the chronologies useful, but the annotations are very valuable. The website Fleming's Bond also has some useful annotations with images. Fleming wrote about a now-vanished world, and even many of his consumer good references could use annotation, let alone his geopolitical ones (POUM anyone?).

    Nice! I'll definitely be interested in reading what you think of it (God willing/whenever that'll be of course ;) ) Thank you! It's an older website but I like what's in there.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 30 Posts: 19,505
    I kind of feel like annotated versions are a bit of an easy win in a way: it's a way of bringing out another edition of the books they already have and legitimately charging a bit more for them.
    Although perhaps new novels might be easier: you just have to contract one writer and bigger sales are maybe more likely- new Bond books appeal to more people than slightly more insular, fan-pleasing academic works (I still remember how massive Devil May Care was, and even that new Q book has been featured in the papers).

    I also think a new short story collection feels like something which makes sense for Bond, getting some name authors in to do a short 007 story, like the Agatha Christie people have done with Marple etc., but maybe it won't appeal, I don't know.
  • Posts: 6,248
    mtm wrote: »
    I kind of feel like annotated versions are a bit of an easy win in a way: it's a way of bringing out another edition of the books they already have and legitimately charging a bit more for them.
    Although perhaps new novels might be easier: you just have to contract one writer and bigger sales are maybe more likely- new Bond books appeal to more people than slightly more insular, fan-pleasing academic works (I still remember how massive Devil May Care was, and even that new Q book has been featured in the papers).

    I also think a new short story collection feels like something which makes sense for Bond, getting some name authors in to do a short 007 story, like the Agatha Christie people have done with Marple etc., but maybe it won't appeal, I don't know.

    Surely they can do all this though? Give us a full annotated Fleming release and give us those new books/short stories. Incidentally I'd read a new short story collection about Bond!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,505
    Yeah, I guess it depends what their budget is. Like any business they want maximum return for minimum investment, I don't know how rude their health is.
    I mean I guess the most bankable thing is just to do a new Bond novel; unless there's been some sort of block coming in from the rights holders of JB, you'd imagine there's plans for another at soonest opportunity.
  • edited October 30 Posts: 6,248
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah, I guess it depends what their budget is. Like any business they want maximum return for minimum investment, I don't know how rude their health is.
    I mean I guess the most bankable thing is just to do a new Bond novel; unless there's been some sort of block coming in from the rights holders of JB, you'd imagine there's plans for another at soonest opportunity.

    Yes, I can imagine there are those problems. I do think it's a conscious decision not to do annotated Fleming releases though. And it's a shame. In the right hands I think that's the best way to go and could bring some good stuff. Maybe the audience isn't as apparent, but I can also understand a business (especially a literary one) not quite seeing where their audiences are nowadays.
  • DaltonforyouDaltonforyou The Daltonator
    edited October 30 Posts: 933
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I kind of feel like annotated versions are a bit of an easy win in a way: it's a way of bringing out another edition of the books they already have and legitimately charging a bit more for them.
    Although perhaps new novels might be easier: you just have to contract one writer and bigger sales are maybe more likely- new Bond books appeal to more people than slightly more insular, fan-pleasing academic works (I still remember how massive Devil May Care was, and even that new Q book has been featured in the papers).

    I also think a new short story collection feels like something which makes sense for Bond, getting some name authors in to do a short 007 story, like the Agatha Christie people have done with Marple etc., but maybe it won't appeal, I don't know.

    Surely they can do all this though? Give us a full annotated Fleming release and give us those new books/short stories. Incidentally I'd read a new short story collection about Bond!

    What's an example of something you want to annotated in any of the Bond books? I fear this is just another angle for the thought police to say Fleming is bad for observing things which are obviously true.
  • edited October 31 Posts: 6,248
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I kind of feel like annotated versions are a bit of an easy win in a way: it's a way of bringing out another edition of the books they already have and legitimately charging a bit more for them.
    Although perhaps new novels might be easier: you just have to contract one writer and bigger sales are maybe more likely- new Bond books appeal to more people than slightly more insular, fan-pleasing academic works (I still remember how massive Devil May Care was, and even that new Q book has been featured in the papers).

    I also think a new short story collection feels like something which makes sense for Bond, getting some name authors in to do a short 007 story, like the Agatha Christie people have done with Marple etc., but maybe it won't appeal, I don't know.

    Surely they can do all this though? Give us a full annotated Fleming release and give us those new books/short stories. Incidentally I'd read a new short story collection about Bond!

    What's an example of something you want to annotated in any of the Bond books? I fear this is just another angle for the thought police to say Fleming is bad for observing things which are obviously true.

    Have you ever actually read a classic book that’s been annotated? Or is this just another attempt at a ‘shock’ post you tend to do? 😉

    If anyone wants a specific example of what it would look like in regards to some of these topics, here’s a hypothetical. From LALD:
    This was Quarrel, the Cayman Islander, and Bond liked him immediately. There was the blood of Cromwellian soldiers and buccaneers in him

    There’d be a footnote, and if you wanted you could go to the back of the book and read something like: “The Western Design was an English expedition against the Spanish West Indies during the 1654 to 1660 Anglo-Spanish War, led by Oliver Cromwell. It resulted in the English capture of Jamaica in 1655.” Which would give some context to what Fleming is on about and I don’t think is immediately apparent. That’s what annotations tend to look like in these instances.
  • DaltonforyouDaltonforyou The Daltonator
    edited October 31 Posts: 933
    As long as its kept to that, it would be fine. Considering the books have already been edited, my hesitance is they will want to explain away in apologetic terms, anything Fleming wrote that might be too colorful.

    For instance, there's a line in Doctor No about the Chinamen in Jamaica wanting to keep their strain pure.

    I don't need an annotation about how Fleming is a simple 1950s Englishman with outdated thoughts about how the Chinese are.
  • edited October 31 Posts: 6,248
    That would be unusual for an annotation in these instances. There might be the odd footnote briefly talking about the history of Chinese migration into Jamaica (again, just for context/if needed).

    A forward/essay at the beginning would most likely acknowledge Fleming’s depiction of them and comment on it, but in tandem with an overview of the novel (ie. How it marked a shift in Fleming’s writing into more fantastical adventures, the story, characters etc.)
  • edited October 31 Posts: 2,502
    "This book may offend some readers" is warning enough; there is no need to get involved in a culture war.
  • edited October 31 Posts: 6,248
    I’m generally not in favour of those kinds of warnings on books, at least in most circumstances. With Bond I think the message would inadvertently be, ‘sorry, this book isn’t for you’ to some readers who might otherwise get something out of them. At worst it’d imply ‘this is a racist book’ or whatever rather than acknowledging and contextualising why these critiques exist.
  • DaltonforyouDaltonforyou The Daltonator
    Posts: 933
    Exactly, it changes the vibe of the physical book when you have warnings plastered all over it like its some kind of biohazard.
  • DragonpolDragonpol The Crazy World of David Dragonpol
    edited October 31 Posts: 18,941
    There's no need for any government-style health warnings to be put on the covers as if it were a packet of cigarettes or a high fat food. It should be more than sufficient to have a line or two on the copyright page about how this is a vintage book and how the language and attitudes presented may not reflect those of today. There's no need to go overboard. I imagine that most people interested in reading these books will have enough common sense to know that they were written in a different time and know roughly what to expect from the contents. Anybody that doesn't want to read the Bond books is under no obligation to do so and they can leave them sitting on the bookshop shelf.
  • DaltonforyouDaltonforyou The Daltonator
    edited October 31 Posts: 933
    I can see them doing that, but that still gives it an apologetic tone which I abhor. Who reads a James Bond book thinking its going to be squeaky clean?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 31 Posts: 19,505
    I can see them doing that, but that still gives it an apologetic tone which I abhor. Who reads a James Bond book thinking its going to be squeaky clean?

    Who has actually suggested that? You're trying to create something to rail against which hasn't actually happened, or even been posited. The conversation above was about potentially doing annotations and footnotes to add a bit of academic interest to a book, nothing to do with flagging up warnings about content as has been explained to you several times; you seem a desperate to try and turn it into a culture war thing for some reason. Have a proper read of 007HallY's posts above.
    As Revelator mentioned, the annotated Sherlock Holmes is a good example: the annotations include 'notes, maps, diagrams, coats-of-arms, photographs, and drawings' - nothing to do with apologising for outdated attitudes.
  • edited October 31 Posts: 546
    An annotated set of Fleming's work would be incredible: there are quite a few things that Bond fans or hear often without an exact source (the Vesper Lynd/West Berlin connection for instance, the assumptions about Bond's watch* and Beretta another, the idea that Bond was supposed to die in FRWL etc.)

    Presuming that IFP have access to all the letters and such they could clear up quite a bit of mess. I don't think anybody would mind a "This novel contains some common attitudes of the time" at all, and they certainly wouldn't of the new editions provided some great extra value

    *Perhaps not the thread but I found this quite interesting
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 31 Posts: 19,505
    Ooh that's loads of fun: yeah, that's just the sort of thing would provide a bit of fun context when Bond's watch gets mentioned.
    A little while ago the lads on AJB had a stab as to what Bond's watch could be: in short it's impossible to tell as it's doubtful Fleming had a particular watch in mind, but there's a couple which kind of fit into the criteria he gives and they're pretty cool.

    Considering how Fleming filled his books full of product references, that's actually the sort of thing which could be lots of fun to have filled in. Even just photos of what his car as described looked like etc.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    edited 1:43am Posts: 5,220
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I kind of feel like annotated versions are a bit of an easy win in a way: it's a way of bringing out another edition of the books they already have and legitimately charging a bit more for them.
    Although perhaps new novels might be easier: you just have to contract one writer and bigger sales are maybe more likely- new Bond books appeal to more people than slightly more insular, fan-pleasing academic works (I still remember how massive Devil May Care was, and even that new Q book has been featured in the papers).

    I also think a new short story collection feels like something which makes sense for Bond, getting some name authors in to do a short 007 story, like the Agatha Christie people have done with Marple etc., but maybe it won't appeal, I don't know.

    Surely they can do all this though? Give us a full annotated Fleming release and give us those new books/short stories. Incidentally I'd read a new short story collection about Bond!

    Those are my wishes for IFP and Literary Bond now. That and a modern day Blofeld spinoff. Also, @007HallY if there is a new James Bond product (book, video game, or especially movie), it will truly be noted by the entertainment media of those fields.
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