The theories of Bond films! Grant's speech to Bond, Bravado OR intended sadism?

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  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 6,104
    Connery was less over the top with his emotions. Like the look on his face when he knows Mr. Jones is an enemy. Or his sunglasses and shaking hand when sharing the bad news with Domino. When you think of a secret agent, they often would need to have a poker face. I think the lines between Bond and Vesper about armor are somewhat cliched but it is true that an emotional agent would not be very good at his job.

    I do wonder how the writers might have handled the hunt scene differently with another Bond. All the gags would be gone. I even think the wading out to the tourist boat would go. Only Moore and maybe Brosnan could get away with that. I do think the idea of a hunt for Bond could be done again with a more serious tone and a sense of danger. Danger from the villains and the wild animals roaming around.
  • Posts: 2,369
    mtm wrote: »
    Was anyone sucking in the stomach in that film more than Robert Shaw though? :)

    robert_1.jpg

    The oldest trick in the business.

    007HallY wrote: »
    Yes, I like the the DAF toupee. It's a controversial opinion, but I think Connery looks good in DAF. The problem is his weight.

    I don't disagree. Honestly, for a 40+ year old man (especially in the late 60s/early 70s) he looks fine. Not his fighting weight as it were, and probably with better days ahead of him, but I think he was so tall and burly any weight through indulgence just kind of went into his frame. I know even Young told him to suck in his stomach by his second film (with the adage that 'Sean likes to eat') and he was 31 then! Like, for a 6'2 guy and an ex body builder anything below 90 kilos is unnoticeable anyway. Under 95 kilos it's a minor weight gain optically which is where I suspect Connery was at.

    Even with the extra weight, Connery still looks strong. It's not the end of the world.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 9 Posts: 19,046
    thedove wrote: »
    Connery was less over the top with his emotions.

    Over the top is a curious way of putting it; do you think Roger was being OTT because he showed a hint of panic? Like in the clown/bomb climax? He’s hardly bursting into tears. I don’t think that was OTT at all; I think that’s just acting, and compared to most other characters Bond is keeping quite cool. I think if we see Bond reacting like he knows he’s in trouble then it heightens the tension. For me Sean’s Bond could have done with a bit of that, he tends to veer towards being an invulnerable superman who knows he can get out of anything with a gadget and a quip.
  • Posts: 5,913
    There's a theatricality to Moore I guess you could say. But I'd say it's less him being OTT or unnatural in terms of his emotional range, and more just his individual acting style (ie. the eyebrow raises, the savouring of certain lines etc.) I'd argue in terms of showing Bond on edge/in legitimate danger he was the most convincing.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 6,104
    Moore was less subtle about his emotions. The scripts threw in jokes to diffuse tension but not the same as the humour in DN, FRWL or TB. This humour was rather intrusive and took away any sense of danger. The jungle sequence is a perfect example. "Hiss Off" "Sit" and the Tarzan yell all undermine the action and give you a feeling that Bond isn't really not in any risk.

    Aside from the bomb sequence in this movie and the bomb sequence in Spy, I am struggling to recall a time where i felt Moore's Bond was in any real danger. That made the transition to Tim all the more jarring. We had over a decade of a lighter Bond.

    People seem to claim that Connery's Bond just walked through things and never emoted. I don't think that is true. While it was subtle and below the surface often coming out in actions rather than words.

    I am not saying one is better than the other. They are different portrayals of the same character. Sometimes I am in the mood for a light breezy Moore film over a more dark and dangerous Connery, Dalton or Craig film.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 9 Posts: 19,046
    I just don't see much emotion or vulnerability in Connery's Bond, especially after FRWL (he gets to show a bit of anger at Kerim's death). Bond is more of a supercool cypher in the films after that, existing mostly to say quips and look clever. That doesn't change a huge amount with the change of actors but there are elements of humanity which start to drift in, and it isn't due to a lack of acting subtlety, it's a direction and writing choice. As someone put it:
    thedove wrote: »
    It seems some don't realize that scripts are tailored for the actor playing the character.
    ;)

    The closest ConneryBond comes to this sequence is maybe the junkanoo? And to be honest I'm not really feeling much desperation from Bond. He even suffers from a gunshot wound which has handily cleared itself up by the next scene. The jungle hunt did have too many gags which puncture its potential, but Bond still gets to show a little fear and panic, especially towards the end. Lazenby then had the icerink sequence, which lots of folks cite as him playing the vulnerability and fear of his predicament fairly well. It's a mild development of Bond's portrayal over the years, drifting in slightly more human elements as time goes along. NSNA shows the contrast, as Connery's Bond has been pickled in time in 1971 and revived in '83 without those additions.
  • edited September 9 Posts: 2,369
    mtm wrote: »
    . NSNA shows the contrast, as Connery's Bond has been pickled in time in 1971 and revived in '83 without those additions.

    Yeah, that's the point.

    In any case, the Bond films had become more stunt-oriented than the earlier movies in the series. They had to give Moore something to do.
  • Posts: 5,913
    I genuinely felt Connery's Bond was in danger during the laser scene in GF (he actually plays it really well and you can tell exactly what Bond's thinking). The tarantula scene in DN too. I also like him running through the exploding lair frantically trying to find Honey (he's quite stoic and even cold for a lot of the film so it's a very nice contrast to see him like that in the climax. I wish they'd played it up a bit).

    But I think Moore got more opportunity to play Bond in more vulnerable situations, and I think the way he played a lot of those scenes gave them the best results. Stuff like the mountain climb in FYEO, the alligator scene in LALD, the bomb scenes in TSWLM and OP, or even something like the python scene in MR.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,046
    Yes, very good point about the laser scene, I should have thought of that.
  • edited September 9 Posts: 5,913
    Personally, out of all of Connery's Bond films, I think YOLT is the one where it feels like he could have given Bond more vulnerability and even misplays many scenes. Moments like the crashing plane, him being held at gunpoint by Blofeld, and his final fight with Hans/blowing up the SPECTRE shuttle. For whatever reason Connery doesn't really give it his all during those moments, and comes off as quite stone-faced, even a bit awkward. They're scenes I can see Moore playing really well.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 6,104
    It is interesting that I don't see this emotion that has been mentioned by Moore's Bond. To me it's all about how he just lightly moves through the movie. To me Moore having hesitancy to kick the car off the cliff in FYEO tells me all about how he approached the character and how the scriptwriters wrote the part for him. I still think FYEO would have worked better as an introduction to a new Bond rather than bringing Moore back.

    Speaking of back or at least back on track lets move to another film and dive into the theories behind this.

    What is your theory on on Grant's speech to Bond. Bravado or intended?

    Our man on his knees, unarmed with a silenced PPK pointed at him. A SPECTRE assassin standing over him and lauding how much more intelligent SPECTRE has been. Bond nervously looking at the gun and watching Grant put on the gloves.

    Grant delivers the main thrust of his speech to Bond.

    "The first one won't kill you, not the second, not even the third...not until you come over here and you kiss my foot."

    If Grant was to make it look like a murder-suicide how would it look if the suicide had at least three bullets in him? Or was this mere bravado from Grant who was getting off on how defeated and fearful Bond looked in that moment? Earlier Grant says that he has freedom to dispose of Bond and the girl in any way he sees fit, so maybe SPECTRE thinks British Intelligence will explain away the situation as a murder-suicide? Mind you they have a note and the film to lend credence to murder-suicide.

    Lets hear your theories on this potent line of dialogue and the real intentions of Grant.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,880
    thedove wrote: »
    It is interesting that I don't see this emotion that has been mentioned by Moore's Bond. To me it's all about how he just lightly moves through the movie. To me Moore having hesitancy to kick the car off the cliff in FYEO tells me all about how he approached the character and how the scriptwriters wrote the part for him. I still think FYEO would have worked better as an introduction to a new Bond rather than bringing Moore back.

    Speaking of back or at least back on track lets move to another film and dive into the theories behind this.

    What is your theory on on Grant's speech to Bond. Bravado or intended?

    Our man on his knees, unarmed with a silenced PPK pointed at him. A SPECTRE assassin standing over him and lauding how much more intelligent SPECTRE has been. Bond nervously looking at the gun and watching Grant put on the gloves.

    Grant delivers the main thrust of his speech to Bond.

    "The first one won't kill you, not the second, not even the third...not until you come over here and you kiss my foot."

    If Grant was to make it look like a murder-suicide how would it look if the suicide had at least three bullets in him? Or was this mere bravado from Grant who was getting off on how defeated and fearful Bond looked in that moment? Earlier Grant says that he has freedom to dispose of Bond and the girl in any way he sees fit, so maybe SPECTRE thinks British Intelligence will explain away the situation as a murder-suicide? Mind you they have a note and the film to lend credence to murder-suicide.

    Lets hear your theories on this potent line of dialogue and the real intentions of Grant.

    Grant has a strong disdain for Bond. He feels Bond is falsely having a great reputation, and he relishes himself in the fact that he has total control. The film and letter are enough for the press, the bodies aren't really necessary, so he can do anything he wants really. As long as Bond doesn't survive...
  • In the novel Grant doesn't particularly care about the veracity of the suicide.
    One bullet for you. As we go into the tunnel. Just one in the heart. The noise of the tunnel will help in case you're a noisy dier--rattle and so forth. Then one in the back of the neck for her--with your gun--and out of the window she goes. Then one more for you with your gun. With your fingers wrapped round it, of course. Plenty of powder on your shirt. Suicide. That's what it'll look like at first. But there'll be two bullets in your heart. That'll come out later. More mystery! Search the Simplon again. Who was the man with the fair hair?

    I suppose it'd just add to the mystery and cause the story to spread even further.
  • Posts: 16,092
    Grant is psychotic. He's got sadistic kinks, probably borderline homoerotic. He's just letting his fantasies go wild. I'm not sure at this point if he cares at all about the suicide charade.
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