Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 8 Posts: 18,761
    Yes I think as it was, even with Connery and Moore's star power, Bond was struggling and could have faded away with TMWTGG but Cubby wisely regrouped and relaunched it with Spy; a Lazenby DAF may well have seen O'Rahilly's prediction come true.
    Ah, yes, I thought you were talking about Young. It would have made sense to bring him back for DAF instead of Hamilton.

    I don't know, TB doesn't feel the strongest directed to me. I think he probably stopped at the right point, and apparently he quit during editing anyway didn't he?
  • edited August 8 Posts: 5,716
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I'm a huge Lazenby defender and I think OHMSS couldn't have had a better lead. Sure he lacks the charisma of Connery, but doesn't everyone? What OHMSS needed was a softer less self-condifent Bond and even though I think George did have enough screen presence to pull of Bond, he didn't look as much 'in control' as Connery did and I think OHMSS benefits from that. Also, that last scene is one of the best acted scenes in the series.

    I agree, no one could do it better than Laz, he fits well in the film.

    And really he looked the part, could handle the essential aspects of the character, and I think he had the Masculine boyish charm like the Bond of the books, and was an actual fighter (he's great in martial arts), as for romance, that's the best I could expect from a Bond film, and Lazenby delivered the romance in the most Bondian way possible.

    The Bond character, probably another controversial opinion of mine, doesn't require much, actually, its not that I have lower standards, heck no, but as far as cinematic Bond goes, and speaking on behalf of the casual audiences, the cinematic Bond is not that much of a demanding role (cinematic Bond is different from the books, hence why I emphasized that word 'Cinematic'), the cinematic Bond doesn't require much, as long as you look the role, can handle the essential aspects of the character, has that masculine charm, believable in fight scenes, and just be Bond, you're in, maybe it's us in fandom (us, fans in general) that we tend to be very nitpicky, this argument could also be applied for the next Bond as well.

    That could be true back then, before the modern films came out, hence, why the people accepted the likes of Barbara Bach, Claudine Auger, Daniela Bianchi, because in their POV, those women carried the roles well.

    But on the other hand, we have misfires from A list actors like Christoph Waltz that couldn't even managed to save that Blofeld character in SPECTRE, Rami Malek (an Oscar winning actor) as Safin in NTTD, or Denise Richards as Dr. Christmas Jones despite that she had acting experience or Halle Berry (another Oscar winner) as Jinx in DAD.

    It's on the character and how a person could carry the role.



    I wouldn’t say it’s an easy role (actually I suspect it’s deceptively tricky to play for an actor, and I reckon even some great actors would struggle a bit with it). There is a good deal of natural charisma and screen presence which comes into it. If you don’t ’have it’ then it’s tricky for an actor to play a believable Bond, which I think is where Lazenby’s problem came in. Acting ability aside I don’t think his real life charisma quite made its way onto the screen.
  • edited August 8 Posts: 2,302
    Lazenby has a rock star's charisma but James Bond is not a rock star ;)
    He makes Connery look like the Prince of Wales
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 8 Posts: 18,761
    I don't see any charisma at all. He's a blank.
    And as Peter said, not really an actor at all: he barely knows where to look. Like the bit where he finds the chips in his drawer after spending the night with Tracy- what's he thinking? I have no idea, there's nothing going on behind his eyes at all.

    Which funnily enough makes him kind of easy to picture as Fleming's Bond when reading one of the novels, because he looks sort of right but brings almost no personality to the part at all, so it's easy to overlay book Bond's personality and imagine him saying the lines in the book. If I try and picture Connery when reading a Fleming it doesn't work for me as his screen persona is too strong and different to Fleming's 007.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 8 Posts: 4,072
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I'm a huge Lazenby defender and I think OHMSS couldn't have had a better lead. Sure he lacks the charisma of Connery, but doesn't everyone? What OHMSS needed was a softer less self-condifent Bond and even though I think George did have enough screen presence to pull of Bond, he didn't look as much 'in control' as Connery did and I think OHMSS benefits from that. Also, that last scene is one of the best acted scenes in the series.

    I agree, no one could do it better than Laz, he fits well in the film.

    And really he looked the part, could handle the essential aspects of the character, and I think he had the Masculine boyish charm like the Bond of the books, and was an actual fighter (he's great in martial arts), as for romance, that's the best I could expect from a Bond film, and Lazenby delivered the romance in the most Bondian way possible.

    The Bond character, probably another controversial opinion of mine, doesn't require much, actually, its not that I have lower standards, heck no, but as far as cinematic Bond goes, and speaking on behalf of the casual audiences, the cinematic Bond is not that much of a demanding role (cinematic Bond is different from the books, hence why I emphasized that word 'Cinematic'), the cinematic Bond doesn't require much, as long as you look the role, can handle the essential aspects of the character, has that masculine charm, believable in fight scenes, and just be Bond, you're in, maybe it's us in fandom (us, fans in general) that we tend to be very nitpicky, this argument could also be applied for the next Bond as well.

    That could be true back then, before the modern films came out, hence, why the people accepted the likes of Barbara Bach, Claudine Auger, Daniela Bianchi, because in their POV, those women carried the roles well.

    But on the other hand, we have misfires from A list actors like Christoph Waltz that couldn't even managed to save that Blofeld character in SPECTRE, Rami Malek (an Oscar winning actor) as Safin in NTTD, or Denise Richards as Dr. Christmas Jones despite that she had acting experience or Halle Berry (another Oscar winner) as Jinx in DAD.

    It's on the character and how a person could carry the role.



    I wouldn’t say it’s an easy role (actually I suspect it’s deceptively tricky to play for an actor, and I reckon even some great actors would struggle a bit with it). There is a good deal of natural charisma and screen presence which comes into it. If you don’t ’have it’ then it’s tricky for an actor to play a believable Bond, which I think is where Lazenby’s problem came in. Acting ability aside I don’t think his real life charisma quite made its way onto the screen.

    I do think Lazenby had the charisma, because if he hadn't, then Cubby wouldn't likely to bat an eye on him in that Barber Shop or in that Chocolate Advert they've seen him in, the Producers thought that he had potential, these are the same people who chose Connery over Fleming's choice, David Niven, and Fleming disliked Connery for looking more like an overgrown stuntman who thankfully was guided and molded into shape with Terrence Young's guidance (hence, why I wished Young had directed Lazenby) and Connery's casting succeeded, these are the same producers who have Dalton and Brosnan on their radar, so they know what they're doing, when they've seen potential in Lazenby, they knew it, if not for Lazenby quitting from the role.

    That's said, for some casual audiences, the 'Cinematic' James Bond, just like Bourne, Hunt, and Wick, is still an action hero, if they looked good in a suit, sophisticated, classy, believable in fight scenes and action, sexy, could handle the essential aspects of the character, then any actor could've gotten the role, there's a criteria already laid on for the Cinematic Bond role through screen tests, if they've passed it, then, they could be Bond, this is not just about Lazenby, it's about choosing the Next Bond, in general, it's just the same as Bond Girls, think of why people prefer the performances of Barbara Bach, Claudine Auger, and Daniela Bianchi over the likes of Halle Berry (an Oscar winning actress) and Denise Richards, for example? It's on how they carry the role, and the quality of the material they're going to be given with, we don't need an A List, Oscar Winning Actors and Actresses in this:
    1.) As long as the material is good
    2.) As long as they could carry the role, then they could be in.

    I mean Halle Berry could've been great as Anya Amasova, but just imagine Barbara Bach as Jinx, for example, but why many people prefer the latter to the former? Because of the material they've been given with.


    And Lazenby, I think carried it well, like what I've said, the romance in OHMSS are the best that I could expect from a Bond film (not that the romance in the book was anything that convincing either), Lazenby carried it in the most Bondian way possible (that montage scene is really great, so them skiing together).

    This is just my Controversial Opinion, but I don't think the role of Cinematic James Bond is really that demanding, if they pass the criteria, they could go for the role.
  • edited August 8 Posts: 5,716
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I'm a huge Lazenby defender and I think OHMSS couldn't have had a better lead. Sure he lacks the charisma of Connery, but doesn't everyone? What OHMSS needed was a softer less self-condifent Bond and even though I think George did have enough screen presence to pull of Bond, he didn't look as much 'in control' as Connery did and I think OHMSS benefits from that. Also, that last scene is one of the best acted scenes in the series.

    I agree, no one could do it better than Laz, he fits well in the film.

    And really he looked the part, could handle the essential aspects of the character, and I think he had the Masculine boyish charm like the Bond of the books, and was an actual fighter (he's great in martial arts), as for romance, that's the best I could expect from a Bond film, and Lazenby delivered the romance in the most Bondian way possible.

    The Bond character, probably another controversial opinion of mine, doesn't require much, actually, its not that I have lower standards, heck no, but as far as cinematic Bond goes, and speaking on behalf of the casual audiences, the cinematic Bond is not that much of a demanding role (cinematic Bond is different from the books, hence why I emphasized that word 'Cinematic'), the cinematic Bond doesn't require much, as long as you look the role, can handle the essential aspects of the character, has that masculine charm, believable in fight scenes, and just be Bond, you're in, maybe it's us in fandom (us, fans in general) that we tend to be very nitpicky, this argument could also be applied for the next Bond as well.

    That could be true back then, before the modern films came out, hence, why the people accepted the likes of Barbara Bach, Claudine Auger, Daniela Bianchi, because in their POV, those women carried the roles well.

    But on the other hand, we have misfires from A list actors like Christoph Waltz that couldn't even managed to save that Blofeld character in SPECTRE, Rami Malek (an Oscar winning actor) as Safin in NTTD, or Denise Richards as Dr. Christmas Jones despite that she had acting experience or Halle Berry (another Oscar winner) as Jinx in DAD.

    It's on the character and how a person could carry the role.



    I wouldn’t say it’s an easy role (actually I suspect it’s deceptively tricky to play for an actor, and I reckon even some great actors would struggle a bit with it). There is a good deal of natural charisma and screen presence which comes into it. If you don’t ’have it’ then it’s tricky for an actor to play a believable Bond, which I think is where Lazenby’s problem came in. Acting ability aside I don’t think his real life charisma quite made its way onto the screen.

    I do think Lazenby had the charisma, because if he hadn't, then Cubby wouldn't likely to bat an eye on him in that Barber Shop or in that Chocolate Advert they've seen him in, the Producers thought that he had potential, these are the same people who chose Connery over Fleming's choice, David Niven, and Fleming disliked Connery for looking more like an overgrown stuntman who thankfully was guided and molded into shape with Terrence Young's guidance (hence, why I wished Young had directed Lazenby) and Connery's casting succeeded, these are the same producers who have Dalton and Brosnan on their radar, so they know what they're doing, when they've seen potential in Lazenby, they knew it, if not for Lazenby quitting from the role.

    It’s not that Lazenby didn’t have charisma as a man. He clearly did and any interview with him will show it. But conveying that charisma as an actor onscreen, and in this case as James Bond, is another matter. It doesn’t matter how much charisma he had, the fact that he didn’t always seem comfortable in the role, didn’t always naturally know where to look, and indeed had this tendency to recite his lines in a stiff, wooden manner kills that slightly. It’s what I mean when I say playing Bond isn’t as easy as it looks. A lot of great actors simply won’t be able to play the role convincingly, but it’s also a case where a non-actor is even unlikelier to succeed, even if they have the look. Honestly, I don’t think the producers struck gold with him (although from auditions I can definitely see how he was the best option), and after Connery they clearly wanted a Bond in the role long term to steady the ship.

    I really don’t think Young would have gotten anything better out of him. Despite Connery being a slightly left field pick he was an actor ultimately, and he was very natural onscreen. It’s very much a case where getting the right actor is key for a director - hell, for Bond in general it’s a case where the actor doesn’t really need to be ‘moulded’ into the character because they have the ability to play him naturally. In that sense Connery wasn’t transformed into Bond just because they took him to Saville Row and taught him about fine dining. That’s just preparation, and to some extent Lazenby would have gotten that too.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,731
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    the director is the heart of every film, next to the scriptwriter.

    Yeah, that’s why even with a very weak leading man in the most iconic role of the 60s, OHMSS is still one of the best Bond films. Hunt held that film together despite Lazenby’s many weaknesses.

    @peter
    I truly believe it's a missed opportunity that Hunt didn't continue directing more Bond films. Imagine if he had overseen films like DAF, LALD, and TMWTGG in the early '70s. I'm confident we wouldn't have seen some of the comedic elements that, in my humble opinion, didn't quite fit the Bond series.

    @DarthDimi — that’s an alternative universe I’d love to see.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 8 Posts: 4,072
    Whether we liked or not the comedic aspects of the 70s Bond films, they're the ones who made the franchise survived, those are necessary.

    DAF, for how much I disliked that film due to being a disappointment of a follow up, I couldn't deny the success it brought the franchise like a lifeline when people back then are shocked of Lazenby, Bond getting married, and that tragic ending which alienated the audiences, and of course, Connery's return, I think it could've possibly worked at some point had Lazenby returned doing a follow up to OHMSS, but in terms of box office, it could've done worse than LTK, as people are not used to seeing Bond being brutal and violent for revenge, people back then are always expecting Bond to be fun and spectacular.

    LALD continued on that and bringing an already famous star that's Roger Moore, from what I've read, TMWTGG didn't do well due to poor marketing, according to Wikipedia, so not to the style of the film itself.

    I don't know if the franchise would've survived had Hunt directed those films, people back then are alienated with the tone and style of OHMSS, people wanted another Goldfinger, those 70s Hamilton Bond films delivered it, the spectacle and If the humor would remain, could Hunt handle them? The closest we could ever get to him directing a lighthearted scene was with the Ruby Bartlett scenes in OHMSS, which I think was a bit off (maybe part of that was because of Angela Scoular's acting).

    I think people started to accept a serious Bond when Craig took over in CR'06, but back then, a serious Bond was more of an outlier, think of how LTK underperformed in Box Office, only for the triumph to return with Goldeneye.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 18,761
    I recently watched this scene and tried to imagine Lazenby doing it (not so much the bath stuff, more the Rosie scene) and I just picture his flat, charisma-free delivery killing it. Roger is doing so much in this, he's being self-deprecating at points, he's making fun of Rosie, he's showing us Bond's disappointment, his playfulness, sometimes he's the butt of the joke, sometimes she is- and all the way through we know exactly what Bond is thinking and he's winking at us, creating that connection between the audience and the character. Lazenby wasn't able to do that, you never quite know what he's thinking and he has no ability to create that link with the audience.
    I know it wouldn't have happened, but just the thought of him sticking around long enough to make LALD is a horrible one! Imagine him doing this scene with the same kind of dead-eyed look he brings to the 'please stay alive, if just for tonight' scene.

  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 8 Posts: 4,072
    To be honest, there's nothing to be changed in the franchise, we just let them stay as it is.

    Lazenby wouldn't really worked in LALD, the script was very much fitted for Roger Moore, probably the script would've been different had he stuck around, who knows? Each scripts fits the current Bond actor for the role, I couldn't even imagine Connery in LALD.

    It's the same thing as I couldn't imagine Dalton in Goldeneye, the script was very much fitted for Brosnan, as much as many people wanted to see Dalton in that film, the sauna scene with Xenia, I can't imagine Dalton being in that scene, that certain playfulness, or Brosnan's reaction when he saw Trevelyan in the Cemetery.
  • Posts: 2,302
    Connery came back twice for a reason. Some things are just meant to be.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 18,761
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    To be honest, there's nothing to be changed in the franchise, we just let them stay as it is.

    Lazenby wouldn't really worked in LALD, the script was very much fitted for Roger Moore, probably the script would've been different had he stuck around, who knows?

    I'm not saying that the future of the series depended upon this one specific scene, but it did depend to some extent upon the talent and ability of the lead actor.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,731
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    To be honest, there's nothing to be changed in the franchise, we just let them stay as it is.

    Lazenby wouldn't really worked in LALD, the script was very much fitted for Roger Moore, probably the script would've been different had he stuck around, who knows?

    I'm not saying that the future of the series depended upon this one specific scene, but it did depend to some extent upon the talent and ability of the lead actor.

    Very true. You watch a simple scene like the one above and it takes talent and gifts to pull it off (and make it look easy), and it’s clear there’s a universe between what Lazenby brought to the table and the other Bonds that were cast. There’s just absolutely no getting around the fact that Lazenby was quite vacuous, with zero charisma and absolutely no talent. He does come off as a little slow, not engaged and mentally out of his depth. Is he fine in some scenes— thankfully yes, but all in all he was a dud, a non-actor in a role that is much more difficult than what one would assume, and the proof is in the pudding: we’ve had a non actor fake his way in the role and it shows. You can’t fake being James. You have to make him yours and wear him like the best of your comfortable clothes. Lazenby couldn’t do it.

    But I still love the film immensely .
  • Posts: 15,978
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I'm a huge Lazenby defender and I think OHMSS couldn't have had a better lead. Sure he lacks the charisma of Connery, but doesn't everyone? What OHMSS needed was a softer less self-condifent Bond and even though I think George did have enough screen presence to pull of Bond, he didn't look as much 'in control' as Connery did and I think OHMSS benefits from that. Also, that last scene is one of the best acted scenes in the series.

    I agree, no one could do it better than Laz, he fits well in the film.

    And really he looked the part, could handle the essential aspects of the character, and I think he had the Masculine boyish charm like the Bond of the books, and was an actual fighter (he's great in martial arts), as for romance, that's the best I could expect from a Bond film, and Lazenby delivered the romance in the most Bondian way possible.

    The Bond character, probably another controversial opinion of mine, doesn't require much, actually, its not that I have lower standards, heck no, but as far as cinematic Bond goes, and speaking on behalf of the casual audiences, the cinematic Bond is not that much of a demanding role (cinematic Bond is different from the books, hence why I emphasized that word 'Cinematic'), the cinematic Bond doesn't require much, as long as you look the role, can handle the essential aspects of the character, has that masculine charm, believable in fight scenes, and just be Bond, you're in, maybe it's us in fandom (us, fans in general) that we tend to be very nitpicky, this argument could also be applied for the next Bond as well.

    That could be true back then, before the modern films came out, hence, why the people accepted the likes of Barbara Bach, Claudine Auger, Daniela Bianchi, because in their POV, those women carried the roles well.

    But on the other hand, we have misfires from A list actors like Christoph Waltz that couldn't even managed to save that Blofeld character in SPECTRE, Rami Malek (an Oscar winning actor) as Safin in NTTD, or Denise Richards as Dr. Christmas Jones despite that she had acting experience or Halle Berry (another Oscar winner) as Jinx in DAD.

    It's on the character and how a person could carry the role.



    I wouldn’t say it’s an easy role (actually I suspect it’s deceptively tricky to play for an actor, and I reckon even some great actors would struggle a bit with it). There is a good deal of natural charisma and screen presence which comes into it. If you don’t ’have it’ then it’s tricky for an actor to play a believable Bond, which I think is where Lazenby’s problem came in. Acting ability aside I don’t think his real life charisma quite made its way onto the screen.

    I do think Lazenby had the charisma, because if he hadn't, then Cubby wouldn't likely to bat an eye on him in that Barber Shop or in that Chocolate Advert they've seen him in, the Producers thought that he had potential, these are the same people who chose Connery over Fleming's choice, David Niven, and Fleming disliked Connery for looking more like an overgrown stuntman who thankfully was guided and molded into shape with Terrence Young's guidance (hence, why I wished Young had directed Lazenby) and Connery's casting succeeded, these are the same producers who have Dalton and Brosnan on their radar, so they know what they're doing, when they've seen potential in Lazenby, they knew it, if not for Lazenby quitting from the role.

    It’s not that Lazenby didn’t have charisma as a man. He clearly did and any interview with him will show it. But conveying that charisma as an actor onscreen, and in this case as James Bond, is another matter. It doesn’t matter how much charisma he had, the fact that he didn’t always seem comfortable in the role, didn’t always naturally know where to look, and indeed had this tendency to recite his lines in a stiff, wooden manner kills that slightly. It’s what I mean when I say playing Bond isn’t as easy as it looks. A lot of great actors simply won’t be able to play the role convincingly, but it’s also a case where a non-actor is even unlikelier to succeed, even if they have the look. Honestly, I don’t think the producers struck gold with him (although from auditions I can definitely see how he was the best option), and after Connery they clearly wanted a Bond in the role long term to steady the ship.

    I really don’t think Young would have gotten anything better out of him. Despite Connery being a slightly left field pick he was an actor ultimately, and he was very natural onscreen. It’s very much a case where getting the right actor is key for a director - hell, for Bond in general it’s a case where the actor doesn’t really need to be ‘moulded’ into the character because they have the ability to play him naturally. In that sense Connery wasn’t transformed into Bond just because they took him to Saville Row and taught him about fine dining. That’s just preparation, and to some extent Lazenby would have gotten that too.

    I don't know if it's a controversial opinion, but I think playing Bond is and will be increasingly difficult.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,353
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    To be honest, there's nothing to be changed in the franchise, we just let them stay as it is.

    Lazenby wouldn't really worked in LALD, the script was very much fitted for Roger Moore, probably the script would've been different had he stuck around, who knows?

    I'm not saying that the future of the series depended upon this one specific scene, but it did depend to some extent upon the talent and ability of the lead actor.

    Very true. You watch a simple scene like the one above and it takes talent and gifts to pull it off (and make it look easy), and it’s clear there’s a universe between what Lazenby brought to the table and the other Bonds that were cast. There’s just absolutely no getting around the fact that Lazenby was quite vacuous, with zero charisma and absolutely no talent. He does come off as a little slow, not engaged and mentally out of his depth. Is he fine in some scenes— thankfully yes, but all in all he was a dud, a non-actor in a role that is much more difficult than what one would assume, and the proof is in the pudding: we’ve had a non actor fake his way in the role and it shows. You can’t fake being James. You have to make him yours and wear him like the best of your comfortable clothes. Lazenby couldn’t do it.

    But I still love the film immensely .

    Yet another time, @peter, where you sort of took the words right out of my mouth. I'd add that I always considered his facial expressions, all maybe two of them, plainly stupid, which is why I never bought him as a smart secret agent. It's a miracle that in spite of this miscasting, OHMSS turned out so good. Imagine having an accomplished actor playing Bond instead.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 18,761
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    To be honest, there's nothing to be changed in the franchise, we just let them stay as it is.

    Lazenby wouldn't really worked in LALD, the script was very much fitted for Roger Moore, probably the script would've been different had he stuck around, who knows?

    I'm not saying that the future of the series depended upon this one specific scene, but it did depend to some extent upon the talent and ability of the lead actor.

    Very true. You watch a simple scene like the one above and it takes talent and gifts to pull it off (and make it look easy), and it’s clear there’s a universe between what Lazenby brought to the table and the other Bonds that were cast. There’s just absolutely no getting around the fact that Lazenby was quite vacuous, with zero charisma and absolutely no talent. He does come off as a little slow, not engaged and mentally out of his depth. Is he fine in some scenes— thankfully yes, but all in all he was a dud, a non-actor in a role that is much more difficult than what one would assume, and the proof is in the pudding: we’ve had a non actor fake his way in the role and it shows. You can’t fake being James. You have to make him yours and wear him like the best of your comfortable clothes. Lazenby couldn’t do it.

    But I still love the film immensely .

    Yeah, he gets by. Some of his scenes I like include the M scene where M seems to fire him: he looks suitably miffed there and it works quite well. But otherwise, as I say, you can't really tell what he's thinking half the time, and the other half is indistinguishable from 'smell the fart' acting. There's just no connection with the audience there, he's just not an actor.
    Oddly you watch some of those Italian knock-off Bonds from the 60s and he's probably better than some of their stars, however. I guess he's better than Neil Connery.
  • Posts: 2,642
    Regardless of individual opinions on Lazenby's performance - it ultimately served the series at the end of the day; and without the experiment of casting Lazenby - we wouldn't have gotten a much more experienced actor like Moore for the 70s which means no more Bond films. Laz served his purpose. But I still believe that no other Bond actor could've done that ending scene as well as George did.
  • Posts: 91
    Connery came back twice for a reason. Some things are just meant to be.

    That reason being an enormous sack of cash.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,828
    LeighBurne wrote: »
    Connery came back twice for a reason. Some things are just meant to be.

    That reason being an enormous sack of cash.

    One of which he generously donated to charity.
  • Posts: 2,302
    LeighBurne wrote: »
    Connery came back twice for a reason. Some things are just meant to be.

    That reason being an enormous sack of cash.

    Yes, a sack that came from nowhere. Or did Santa Claus bring it?
  • Posts: 18,112
    mtm wrote: »
    I recently watched this scene and tried to imagine Lazenby doing it (not so much the bath stuff, more the Rosie scene) and I just picture his flat, charisma-free delivery killing it. Roger is doing so much in this, he's being self-deprecating at points, he's making fun of Rosie, he's showing us Bond's disappointment, his playfulness, sometimes he's the butt of the joke, sometimes she is- and all the way through we know exactly what Bond is thinking and he's winking at us, creating that connection between the audience and the character. Lazenby wasn't able to do that, you never quite know what he's thinking and he has no ability to create that link with the audience.
    I know it wouldn't have happened, but just the thought of him sticking around long enough to make LALD is a horrible one! Imagine him doing this scene with the same kind of dead-eyed look he brings to the 'please stay alive, if just for tonight' scene.


    I've never really given this scene that much thought before, but looking at it just now, trying (1) to picture Lazenby in it (who obviously would not have been able to handle this scene at all), and (2) paying closer attention to Roger's performance, it really struck me how perfect Roger is in this scene, and how much it plays to his strengths as an actor. It's such a small scene, but it actually shows everything that made his Bond work; how easily he could turn from all serious facing danger, to the ultimate charmer at the flick of a switch.
  • Posts: 15,978
    Controversial opinion: I think Roger Moore could have done very well in OHMSS. Although it could have dramatically changed his tenure.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited 11:35am Posts: 4,072
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Controversial opinion: I think Roger Moore could have done very well in OHMSS. Although it could have dramatically changed his tenure.

    It could've changed the entire franchise, and I'm afraid but it wouldn't make franchise survived for long, people were too alienated by OHMSS, without the lighthearted era of Bond, the spectacle that people always wanted back then from Goldfinger, just pure seriousness and drama, it would be a comatose for the series, if people got alienated with a Bond film, it would result in box office failure, putting the franchise on ice for good.

    People were alienated with Bond getting married, the tragic ending, him crying at the end, yes, the tone would've continued at that, with a Revenge sequel, then we could've gotten perhaps, an earlier version of Craig Era sort of thing (shifting from drama and revenge to comedy would've been jarring).

    And that wouldn't likely to click with the people at that time, they wanted something bombastic, hence, why Diamonds Are Forever became a box office success, same with TSWLM and MR, they wanted spectacle.

    OHMSS was not a box office success (it made money decently) but not as highly as compared to the previous Bond films and after it, sure, Connery's absence might've been a factor, but then so the tone and style of the film, for those people back then, their idea of Bond was invincible and just being cool all the time, not emotional, let alone falling in love and getting married.

    This was happened once again with LTK, because it alienated people to see Bond gone rogue and be violent, which was very far from their idea of Bond.

    I love OHMSS, but I'm happy to leave the franchise as it is, I wouldn't change a thing at all, I will let things happened for what it is, people can complain anytime they want (cough, cough, Reddit Bond fans, cough, cough), but they don't realize the implications that may change, some of them even wanted a remake of the classic Bond films, that's a bit going too far.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,828
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Controversial opinion: I think Roger Moore could have done very well in OHMSS. Although it could have dramatically changed his tenure.

    people were too alienated by OHMSS

    I seem to recall from reading Charles Helfenstein's deep study into the film that, contrary to popular belief, OHMSS wasn't so poorly received at all. The no-Connery effect factored in for sure, but other things may have played a part as well, including oversaturation of the spy genre and a new 'cool' on the horizon. OHMSS wasn't suddenly rediscovered ten years later like a forgotten jewel in a hidden vault. For a brief while, people were possibly moving on from the spy stuff and into newer material, but overall, OHMSS didn't do so poorly. I at least wouldn't put it like being "alienated by OHMSS". But it's hard to sort out the facts after so long. Perhaps I should read Helfenstein's amazing book again. It's been a while.
  • Posts: 5,716
    I think we take for granted now just how polarising Lazenby was when OHMSS came out. It really doesn't seem like reviewers were very impressed with him at the time though. Even the more positive ones say things like he's less suave/confident, which for Bond is a pretty backhanded compliment!

    Don't get me wrong, I understand Moore had a bit of that with LALD (ie. comparisons to Connery) but I do think a strong lead makes a difference. And we tend to somewhat overemphasise what general audiences 'want' (I genuinely think there's no reason OHMSS couldn't have been a bigger hit with a stronger lead - it came out at the right time for such a Bond film).
    mtm wrote: »
    I recently watched this scene and tried to imagine Lazenby doing it (not so much the bath stuff, more the Rosie scene) and I just picture his flat, charisma-free delivery killing it. Roger is doing so much in this, he's being self-deprecating at points, he's making fun of Rosie, he's showing us Bond's disappointment, his playfulness, sometimes he's the butt of the joke, sometimes she is- and all the way through we know exactly what Bond is thinking and he's winking at us, creating that connection between the audience and the character. Lazenby wasn't able to do that, you never quite know what he's thinking and he has no ability to create that link with the audience.
    I know it wouldn't have happened, but just the thought of him sticking around long enough to make LALD is a horrible one! Imagine him doing this scene with the same kind of dead-eyed look he brings to the 'please stay alive, if just for tonight' scene.


    I've never really given this scene that much thought before, but looking at it just now, trying (1) to picture Lazenby in it (who obviously would not have been able to handle this scene at all), and (2) paying closer attention to Roger's performance, it really struck me how perfect Roger is in this scene, and how much it plays to his strengths as an actor. It's such a small scene, but it actually shows everything that made his Bond work; how easily he could turn from all serious facing danger, to the ultimate charmer at the flick of a switch.

    He's great in that scene. There's a lot going on which he conveys to the audience, and more importantly he makes it look effortless.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited 11:58am Posts: 18,761
    mtm wrote: »
    I recently watched this scene and tried to imagine Lazenby doing it (not so much the bath stuff, more the Rosie scene) and I just picture his flat, charisma-free delivery killing it. Roger is doing so much in this, he's being self-deprecating at points, he's making fun of Rosie, he's showing us Bond's disappointment, his playfulness, sometimes he's the butt of the joke, sometimes she is- and all the way through we know exactly what Bond is thinking and he's winking at us, creating that connection between the audience and the character. Lazenby wasn't able to do that, you never quite know what he's thinking and he has no ability to create that link with the audience.
    I know it wouldn't have happened, but just the thought of him sticking around long enough to make LALD is a horrible one! Imagine him doing this scene with the same kind of dead-eyed look he brings to the 'please stay alive, if just for tonight' scene.


    I've never really given this scene that much thought before, but looking at it just now, trying (1) to picture Lazenby in it (who obviously would not have been able to handle this scene at all), and (2) paying closer attention to Roger's performance, it really struck me how perfect Roger is in this scene, and how much it plays to his strengths as an actor. It's such a small scene, but it actually shows everything that made his Bond work; how easily he could turn from all serious facing danger, to the ultimate charmer at the flick of a switch.

    Yeah, it suddenly struck me watching it recently just how skilful Roger is here, and indeed in the whole film. I mean, I'm not saying it's a hugely subtle, Oscar-worthy performance or anything, but he's judging it so perfectly and artfully moving between making us laugh at him, then laugh at her; starting the scene with tension, then moving to comedy as you say... you need someone really good at what they do to pull this off. A lot of the jokes there depend upon knowing exactly what he's thinking, and he lets us into that.
    I watched it recently and it is striking how quickly Roger makes the role his: he steps out of JFK airport and you're just with him straight away, he's our hero and we like him and he's delivering a very engaging performance. He really is lightyears away in professionalism terms from Lazenby.
    He's obviously got his faults: I'm not saying you necessarily believe this man is real, it's not exactly a naturalistic performance. But it's everything you need it to be, and as well as pitching it exactly right he just has a winning screen presence which connects to the audience.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Controversial opinion: I think Roger Moore could have done very well in OHMSS. Although it could have dramatically changed his tenure.

    Without a doubt for me. I'm a bit of a broken record on this one. It basically starts as an episode of The Saint anyway, with our hero enjoying touring the riviera in his smashing car and bumping into a glamorous woman in need of his help, and from there it's all well in his wheelhouse, including an extended comedy sequence where he's pretending to be a stuffy academic; would (and later did) easily hold his own next to Savalas; and Simon Templar and Emma Peel getting together would have been no problem at all (yes, arguably they may not have needed to cast Rigg if they had a more experienced Bond, but they had still cast Cathy Gale even though they had Connery!). His Bond was more romantic as it was, so having him fall in love would have worked very well. Sometimes it feels like they could have gone there with Octopussy if they'd have been interested in that.
    There's a Saint movie which came out in the same year where Simon is trapped in the baddie's castle on top the hill, escapes down the mountainside and spends an extended sequence running and hiding from the goons in the village and countryside below. It's surprisingly tense and Roger plays the fear very effectively: it's oddly reminiscent of OHMSS.
    Lazenby would have been better in the fight scenes.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited 12:30pm Posts: 9,731
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    To be honest, there's nothing to be changed in the franchise, we just let them stay as it is.

    Lazenby wouldn't really worked in LALD, the script was very much fitted for Roger Moore, probably the script would've been different had he stuck around, who knows?

    I'm not saying that the future of the series depended upon this one specific scene, but it did depend to some extent upon the talent and ability of the lead actor.

    Very true. You watch a simple scene like the one above and it takes talent and gifts to pull it off (and make it look easy), and it’s clear there’s a universe between what Lazenby brought to the table and the other Bonds that were cast. There’s just absolutely no getting around the fact that Lazenby was quite vacuous, with zero charisma and absolutely no talent. He does come off as a little slow, not engaged and mentally out of his depth. Is he fine in some scenes— thankfully yes, but all in all he was a dud, a non-actor in a role that is much more difficult than what one would assume, and the proof is in the pudding: we’ve had a non actor fake his way in the role and it shows. You can’t fake being James. You have to make him yours and wear him like the best of your comfortable clothes. Lazenby couldn’t do it.

    But I still love the film immensely .

    Yet another time, @peter, where you sort of took the words right out of my mouth. I'd add that I always considered his facial expressions, all maybe two of them, plainly stupid, which is why I never bought him as a smart secret agent. It's a miracle that in spite of this miscasting, OHMSS turned out so good. Imagine having an accomplished actor playing Bond instead.

    Absolutely agree @j_w_pepper . Better casting in the role and OHMSS would have undoubtedly been a film audiences would have embraced on the spot and not thirty and forty and fifty years later. It’s been re-evaluated not because of Lazenby, but because of the story and the film and some all round great performances— that has never really included the leading man.

    Connery at his most bored had more engagement in his pinkie than poor Laz had in his entire body.
  • Posts: 2,302
    Maybe Tracy should have died at the beginning of the next one. But then the movie wouldn't be so special anymore.
  • Posts: 15,978
    My fear with Moore in OHMSS (highly hypothetical I know) is that at that time people wanted Connery, period. But I think he would have acted better than Lazenby and could deliver the darker and more emotional moments. Of all the Bond actors post Tracy, he was also the most convincing widower, when he had the chance to play that aspect of the character, or allude to it.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited 2:59pm Posts: 4,072
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Controversial opinion: I think Roger Moore could have done very well in OHMSS. Although it could have dramatically changed his tenure.

    people were too alienated by OHMSS

    I seem to recall from reading Charles Helfenstein's deep study into the film that, contrary to popular belief, OHMSS wasn't so poorly received at all. The no-Connery effect factored in for sure, but other things may have played a part as well, including oversaturation of the spy genre and a new 'cool' on the horizon. OHMSS wasn't suddenly rediscovered ten years later like a forgotten jewel in a hidden vault. For a brief while, people were possibly moving on from the spy stuff and into newer material, but overall, OHMSS didn't do so poorly. I at least wouldn't put it like being "alienated by OHMSS". But it's hard to sort out the facts after so long. Perhaps I should read Helfenstein's amazing book again. It's been a while.

    I'm not sure, in my research, it speaks at the box office numbers, really.
    Compared to the previous Connery films and those that came after it with an exception of TMWTGG, I've seen the updated box office adjusted for inflation a month ago and OHMSS was at 81 million then, one of the lowest grossing Bond films compared to the other Bond films, now, adjusted for inflation in 2025 was at 553 million.

    It still made money, but a step down from the Connery Era Bond films, and quite low compared to those that came after it (both DAF & LALD are both higher).

    I could prove the tone played in it, LTK tanked at box office and it's Dalton's second Bond film (and even that made a lot more money compared to OHMSS initial release at 156.2 Million in 1989, now of course, in inflation is 314 Million), it's a matter of people being not yet ready to see a change in the Bond character, but Goldeneye made a huge success, if people in 80s couldn't accept LTK, then what more in 60s? It possibly played a role in OHMSS' drop in box office, after the fantastical YOLT which also made a huge box office, people back then saw Bond getting married, falling in love, and killing his wife abruptly in the end, then played by someone they have no idea whom (I'm not sure if any change in leading actor could've helped that, seeing Bond break the public expectations).

    YOLT made 111.6 million in 1967 (adjusted for inflation, 1 billion).
    DAF made 116 million in 1971 (713 million today)
    LALD made 161.8 million in 1973 (1.2 billion today)

    It's not OHMSS came at the wrong time, but more like it's still too early to change Bond like that, after seeing Bond so cool, inevitable, a male fantasy, wish fulfillment saving the world with gadgets and all, then suddenly he got fallen in love, got married and quite a departure of an ending from the previous ones with not getting the girl and having her killed.
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