Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 18,721
    I agree that Blackman isn’t really my type, but she’s very characterful and easily one of the best-played female characters of the first ten years or so.
  • edited August 4 Posts: 18,100
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    We're not saying Rigg wasn't sexy, are we?

    I wouldn't go that far, but maybe a bit bland looking at times? In some scenes I feel she looks very much a Bond girl, in others not so much.

    It's all subjective, but for me she's by far the most attractive of the 60s Bond girls. I think because she's beautiful but also there's something going on behind the eyes; Domino (for example) is extremely pretty but has no character or spirit to her at all I find, and that does little for me.

    I agree re. Domino. For her relevance to the story, she feels a bit flat at times. But on the other hand you have the fantastic Fiona Volpe as one of the key characters too :D

    As far as the 60's Bond girls go, Honor Blackman as Pussy Galore is probably the character that stands out the most to me. She's not necessarily "my type" either, nor is GF my favourite film of that decade, but Pussy Galore is one of the first characters I think about when Bond girls are mentioned.

    Funny that both Honor Blackman and Diana Rigg starred in Bond coming from successful runs on The Avengers.
  • Posts: 5,686
    Different kinds of screen presences, characters, and beauty I suppose. I personally find Blackman’s Galore the ‘sexiest’ Bond girl.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 4 Posts: 4,054
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    We're not saying Rigg wasn't sexy, are we?

    I wouldn't go that far, but maybe a bit bland looking at times? In some scenes I feel she looks very much a Bond girl, in others not so much.

    It's all subjective, but for me she's by far the most attractive of the 60s Bond girls. I think because she's beautiful but also there's something going on behind the eyes; Domino (for example) is extremely pretty but has no character or spirit to her at all I find, and that does little for me.

    Funny that both Honor Blackman and Diana Rigg starred in Bond coming from successful runs on The Avengers.

    Speaking of Avengers, I slightly prefer Cathy Gale over Emma Peel because Blackman did the stunts in the series by herself, she knew Judo, and she's a bit more serious than Emma Peel.

    Diana Rigg, well I prefer her better as Tracy, her Emma Peel character while sexy (her sexiest portrayal) lacked a bit of substance that Cathy Gale had, Peel was just all style, unlike in OHMSS, her acting had gravitas, her Emma Peel character was iconic though, but Diana Rigg's superb acting skills was not shown in that series, Tracy was really the highlight of her acting career for me (only to be rivaled by her Olenna Tyrell role in GoT).
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,816
    007HallY wrote: »
    Different kinds of screen presences, characters, and beauty I suppose. I personally find Blackman’s Galore the ‘sexiest’ Bond girl.

    Qualifying as truly sexy for me:

    - Ursula
    - Claudine
    - Luciana
    - Half the girls in CR67, especially Jacqueline Bisset
    - Jane
    - Corinne
    - Bárbara
    - Tanya
    - Maryam
    - Isabella
    - Rosamund
    - Eva
    - Léa
    - Ana

    A few of the Bond girls came off less sexy in the Bonds that I usually find them to be:

    - Britt (who I find stunning in The Wicker Man)
    - Kim (who I find absolutely alluring in Batman)
    - Sophie (whose haircut somehow spoiled the fun for me in TWINE)
    - Halle (who seems to be gifted with eternal beauty, yet the shorter hair than Brosnan's in DAD puts me off)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 4 Posts: 18,721
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    We're not saying Rigg wasn't sexy, are we?

    I wouldn't go that far, but maybe a bit bland looking at times? In some scenes I feel she looks very much a Bond girl, in others not so much.

    It's all subjective, but for me she's by far the most attractive of the 60s Bond girls. I think because she's beautiful but also there's something going on behind the eyes; Domino (for example) is extremely pretty but has no character or spirit to her at all I find, and that does little for me.

    I agree re. Domino. For her relevance to the story, she feels a bit flat at times. But on the other hand you have the fantastic Fiona Volpe as one of the key characters too :D

    Yes, Fiona is fantastic. I always say: should have been the main villain over Largo, who's much more boring and has less interaction with Bond than her.
    Funny that both Honor Blackman and Diana Rigg starred in Bond coming from successful runs on The Avengers.

    Definitely: it showed that if they cast actual experienced actors rather than beauty queens they'd get something special. Which takes us back to CR67 and the way it cast its female characters to actually be capable with the lines and gags.
  • edited August 4 Posts: 18,100
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    We're not saying Rigg wasn't sexy, are we?

    I wouldn't go that far, but maybe a bit bland looking at times? In some scenes I feel she looks very much a Bond girl, in others not so much.

    It's all subjective, but for me she's by far the most attractive of the 60s Bond girls. I think because she's beautiful but also there's something going on behind the eyes; Domino (for example) is extremely pretty but has no character or spirit to her at all I find, and that does little for me.

    Funny that both Honor Blackman and Diana Rigg starred in Bond coming from successful runs on The Avengers.

    Speaking of Avengers, I slightly prefer Cathy Gale over Emma Peel because Blackman did the stunts in the series by herself, she knew Judo, and she's a bit more serious than Emma Peel.

    Diana Rigg, well I prefer her better as Tracy, her Emma Peel character while sexy (her sexiest portrayal) lacked a bit of substance that Cathy Gale had, Peel was just all style, unlike in OHMSS, her acting had gravitas, her Emma Peel character was iconic though, but Diana Rigg's superb acting skills was not shown in that series, Tracy was really the highlight of her acting career for me (only to be rivaled by her Olenna Tyrell role in GoT).

    Your comment reminds me that I really need to give The Avengers a watch, @SIS_HQ. I only wish it was available on a streaming service here.
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    We're not saying Rigg wasn't sexy, are we?

    I wouldn't go that far, but maybe a bit bland looking at times? In some scenes I feel she looks very much a Bond girl, in others not so much.

    It's all subjective, but for me she's by far the most attractive of the 60s Bond girls. I think because she's beautiful but also there's something going on behind the eyes; Domino (for example) is extremely pretty but has no character or spirit to her at all I find, and that does little for me.

    I agree re. Domino. For her relevance to the story, she feels a bit flat at times. But on the other hand you have the fantastic Fiona Volpe as one of the key characters too :D

    Yes, Fiona is fantastic. I always say: should have been the main villain over Largo, who's much more boring and has less interaction with Bond than her.

    Although he should not have been a main villain, one could also put Jaws in the category of being more memorable than the main villain of the story – in both films he features in, IMO!
    mtm wrote: »
    Funny that both Honor Blackman and Diana Rigg starred in Bond coming from successful runs on The Avengers.

    Definitely: it showed that if they cast actual experienced actors rather than beauty queens they'd get something special. Which takes us back to CR67 and the way it cast its female characters to actually be capable with the lines and gags.

    Very true. Bond girls were really hit and miss in that era, as far as acting ability goes. You could throw Karin Dor in the "experienced actors" category too, but Helga Brandt isn't the most most memorable character.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,899
    mtm wrote: »
    I think Eva Green is a bit miscast, but I do think she's very sexy.

    Because she's half-French?

    I mean, I think she's perfect in the role, and certainly better than the runner-up, Olivia Wilde.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 5,128
    echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think Eva Green is a bit miscast, but I do think she's very sexy.

    Because she's half-French?

    I mean, I think she's perfect in the role, and certainly better than the runner-up, Olivia Wilde.

    Eva Green is pretty. But her multiple moles and freckles can be very distracting. Particularly in the casino scenes in CR.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited 5:53am Posts: 7,711
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think Eva Green is a bit miscast, but I do think she's very sexy.

    Because she's half-French?

    I mean, I think she's perfect in the role, and certainly better than the runner-up, Olivia Wilde.

    Eva Green is pretty. But her multiple moles and freckles can be very distracting. Particularly in the casino scenes in CR.

    That's a very odd argument, if you'll permit me saying so. No offence ofc :)

    What I do find distracting in the casino scenes are the information lines Mathis has to give all the time: "(...) dollars in the pot", "character X has to go all in.".

    Personally I think Eva Green is the best thing about CR, she steals all the scenes she's in and I, for one, think she's a perfect fit. A huge improvement on the literary counterpart, too.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited 6:57am Posts: 18,721
    echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think Eva Green is a bit miscast, but I do think she's very sexy.

    Because she's half-French?

    I mean, I think she's perfect in the role, and certainly better than the runner-up, Olivia Wilde.

    Maybe the French thing a bit, but I find she doesn’t quite make her lines come alive as much as I’d like; something like the train scene seems written for someone with a Rigg-style sparkle and she gives it nothing. Plus the weird drain-your-lungs delivery. She doesn’t ruin the film for me or anything but I can imagine someone doing it better.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited 7:27am Posts: 4,054
    mtm wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think Eva Green is a bit miscast, but I do think she's very sexy.

    Because she's half-French?

    I mean, I think she's perfect in the role, and certainly better than the runner-up, Olivia Wilde.

    Maybe the French thing a bit, but I find she doesn’t quite make her lines come alive as much as I’d like; something like the train scene seems written for someone with a Rigg-style sparkle and she gives it nothing. Plus the weird drain-your-lungs delivery. She doesn’t ruin the film for me or anything but I can imagine someone doing it better.

    I agree.

    The thing that bothers me about Eva Green was the believability in the role as a Financial Treasury Department, she lacked professionalism, she came off as too abrasive towards Bond, criticizing his ways, I don't know if that had something to do with the agents she had worked with before but again, if she truly had that experience, how could she not used to their world of gunshots and trouble that she needed to go to shower and cry there? (Especially that she was also a double agent for Quantum), she was quite naive, especially for a high ranking Official of Treasury Department.
    But if this was her first time working with an agent like Bond, then why act abrasive and harsh towards Bond himself? What's her point? What's her reason?

    I will give her credit for her chemistry with Bond, but there are some aspects in her character which I don't understand.

    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Personally I think Eva Green is the best thing about CR, she steals all the scenes she's in and I, for one, think she's a perfect fit. A huge improvement on the literary counterpart, too.

    I personally prefer the book version, because at least, she treated Bond with professionalism, while she's troubled at times, it fitted with her quiet demeanor in the book, she may have been neurotic at times, but again, she's an introvert like character in the book, in the film, she's all this confident and harsh, yet, she suddenly cried in the shower, in the book, she remained consistent throughout: a loner, introvert, and quite volatile, but still managed to handle professionalism, she kept her distance from Bond without acting abrasive and harsh.
    And her betrayal in the book was something that we didn't see coming due to how she acted in the previous pages, she was clearly caught in the game.

    Vesper in the film was more like she's a full fledged enemy, she didn't have any regrets, she went to Gettler, she didn't let Bond to save her or at least make things clear to him, she just drowned, end of the story, in the book, at least, there's that regret, she loved Bond, and she wanted an escape from the gripes of the enemy, so she committed suicide and left a letter to Bond explaining things, so Bond wouldn't need to find anymore answers, for Bond, she was more of a lost cause rather than a traitor, hence, Bond never became cold, and that love with Vesper was something he was finding to replicate with the later Bond Girls.

    In the film, Vesper was a clear traitor, she clearly betrayed Bond, she didn't left any answers, just committed suicide, she used Bond, she have taken an advantage over Bond through making him falling in love with her, no regrets and everything, she orchestrated everything, including playing Bond's feelings, she manipulated Bond's feelings, that's not the case in the book, Vesper was a woman who was finding an escape, saw a hope in Bond, but she doesn't want him to be in trouble, so, she explained the situation and her regrets fully consumed her before Gettler get to Bond and got himself involve in her dangerous world, she protected him.


    The only Cinematic Bond Girl that manages to improve upon the book is Tracy, Diana Rigg managed to give more to the character and filled the character's shortcomings, but the book version was easily one of Fleming's weakest, maybe Daniela Bianchi's Tatiana Romanova, because in the film, she killed Rosa Klebb and was given more of an active role than the book where she was only there to seduce Bond and was sent to the Consulate after, ending her role.

    But the rest of the Bond Girls, they're all better in the books (yes, I'm including Vesper).




  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,711
    mtm wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think Eva Green is a bit miscast, but I do think she's very sexy.

    Because she's half-French?

    I mean, I think she's perfect in the role, and certainly better than the runner-up, Olivia Wilde.

    Maybe the French thing a bit, but I find she doesn’t quite make her lines come alive as much as I’d like; something like the train scene seems written for someone with a Rigg-style sparkle and she gives it nothing. Plus the weird drain-your-lungs delivery. She doesn’t ruin the film for me or anything but I can imagine someone doing it better.

    Funny how we all live a film differently. For me Eva owns every single scene she's in. I think she makes CR. The film gets elevated from the moment she's introduced. Not quite sure if I would hold it in such a high regard without her.

    To each their own of course :)
  • edited 7:52am Posts: 5,686
    Actually I’d say the film Vesper is an improvement on her literary counterpart too. She lacks a bit of personality even when she goes into full blown hysteria by the end. Much like Fleming’s Tracy there’s that element that she’s more this angelic image (although obviously this is all shattered by the end) than a fully fledged person. I wouldn’t say she’s as well written as Tiffany Case or Gala Brand for example.

    There’s a lot more going on with Green’s Vesper, especially if you rewatch the film. It helps that we actually see her making conscious choices to save Bond (obviously it’d be in her best interest to have let him die or be killed on those two occasions - once on the stairwell and again when he’s going into cardiac arrest), and we even get a sense of her reaction during the shower scene (which again is a nice two layer moment when watching the film in hindsight - she fears she has blood on her hands not only due to letting Bond kill a man, but also because she will cause her boyfriend’s death). For all the complaints about Green’s performance I really get the sense she’s conflicted at various points and there’s lots of nuance in there (especially when she tells Bond the Treasury won’t give him any more money). Her coming across as disliking Bond initially helps emphasise her falling for him too, which in the book isn’t there on her side but through Bond throwing a hissy fit, saying he doesn’t want to work with a woman, and then falling for her (let’s be honest, that was never going to work for a film and it took me a couple of reads to fully believe it in the book).
  • Posts: 8,460
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think Eva Green is a bit miscast, but I do think she's very sexy.

    Because she's half-French?

    I mean, I think she's perfect in the role, and certainly better than the runner-up, Olivia Wilde.

    Maybe the French thing a bit, but I find she doesn’t quite make her lines come alive as much as I’d like; something like the train scene seems written for someone with a Rigg-style sparkle and she gives it nothing. Plus the weird drain-your-lungs delivery. She doesn’t ruin the film for me or anything but I can imagine someone doing it better.

    Funny how we all live a film differently. For me Eva owns every single scene she's in. I think she makes CR. The film gets elevated from the moment she's introduced. Not quite sure if I would hold it in such a high regard without her.

    To each their own of course :)

    Agree totally, Eva was perfect as Vesper,and amazing chemistry.with Craig. Can't imagine anyone else doing the role as well as her. And her final scenes and death were superbly done!
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,759
    The only issue/continuity with Vesper is that she's only revealed to be 23 when she died
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 4,054
    The only issue/continuity with Vesper is that she's only revealed to be 23 when she died

    That's the least of NTTD's many problems though, it's a part of NTTD's so many problems.
  • Posts: 15,956
    The only issue/continuity with Vesper is that she's only revealed to be 23 when she died

    Yeah I thought that was a bit silly. Surely she could have been 25/26.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,711
    Ludovico wrote: »
    The only issue/continuity with Vesper is that she's only revealed to be 23 when she died

    Yeah I thought that was a bit silly. Surely she could have been 25/26.

    Haha true that. I remember myself at 23, suffice to say I wasn't quite as mature as Vesper in this film :))
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 5,128
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think Eva Green is a bit miscast, but I do think she's very sexy.

    Because she's half-French?

    I mean, I think she's perfect in the role, and certainly better than the runner-up, Olivia Wilde.

    Eva Green is pretty. But her multiple moles and freckles can be very distracting. Particularly in the casino scenes in CR.

    That's a very odd argument, if you'll permit me saying so. No offence ofc :)

    What I do find distracting in the casino scenes are the information lines Mathis has to give all the time: "(...) dollars in the pot", "character X has to go all in.".

    Personally I think Eva Green is the best thing about CR, she steals all the scenes she's in and I, for one, think she's a perfect fit. A huge improvement on the literary counterpart, too.

    Sorry, my OCD. I'm happy that she played the part. Eva Green is one of the better Bond women. It's a shame that she didn't have a flashback scene in QOS. Her drowning scene is better than the original novel drug overdose.
  • Posts: 15,956
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    The only issue/continuity with Vesper is that she's only revealed to be 23 when she died

    Yeah I thought that was a bit silly. Surely she could have been 25/26.

    Haha true that. I remember myself at 23, suffice to say I wasn't quite as mature as Vesper in this film :))

    No but seriously I thought her age was stretching it a bit. I always understood she might have been round 30.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,711
    Ludovico wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    The only issue/continuity with Vesper is that she's only revealed to be 23 when she died

    Yeah I thought that was a bit silly. Surely she could have been 25/26.

    Haha true that. I remember myself at 23, suffice to say I wasn't quite as mature as Vesper in this film :))

    No but seriously I thought her age was stretching it a bit. I always understood she might have been round 30.

    You're right. I just took the opportunity to mock my 23-year old self :p

    Also figured she must have been around 30.
  • 007HallY wrote: »
    Actually I’d say the film Vesper is an improvement on her literary counterpart too. She lacks a bit of personality even when she goes into full blown hysteria by the end. Much like Fleming’s Tracy there’s that element that she’s more this angelic image (although obviously this is all shattered by the end) than a fully fledged person.

    Vesper, an angel? I don't really see that. Bond is initially attracted to her because of her cold, professional demeanour, and wants to shatter that (despite his belief that women get attracted to him and do a poor job).

    Well Vesper lowers her guard over dinner as Bond lowers his and then he gets mad, he gets even madder when she gets captured, and then afterwards he sees her as a way to test if his parts are working. Only after all this he falls in love.

    In the film I suppose the relationship feels more real, more like they shared more emotionally with each other. But Vesper's death obviously is something for me is done worse in the film. If Vesper had gotten away with giving the money to Gettler, would she have killed herself? If she was, why end up with the same result and weaken the British government? And if she wasn't, then I believe that's a misstep from her character. She should conflicted, and feel the walls closing in from both the British and Quantum. Her death in the film, involves little pressure from Quantum, if she is happily doing business with them.
  • edited 3:31pm Posts: 5,686
    007HallY wrote: »
    Actually I’d say the film Vesper is an improvement on her literary counterpart too. She lacks a bit of personality even when she goes into full blown hysteria by the end. Much like Fleming’s Tracy there’s that element that she’s more this angelic image (although obviously this is all shattered by the end) than a fully fledged person.

    Vesper, an angel? I don't really see that. Bond is initially attracted to her because of her cold, professional demeanour, and wants to shatter that (despite his belief that women get attracted to him and do a poor job).

    Well Vesper lowers her guard over dinner as Bond lowers his and then he gets mad, he gets even madder when she gets captured, and then afterwards he sees her as a way to test if his parts are working. Only after all this he falls in love.

    In the film I suppose the relationship feels more real, more like they shared more emotionally with each other. But Vesper's death obviously is something for me is done worse in the film. If Vesper had gotten away with giving the money to Gettler, would she have killed herself? If she was, why end up with the same result and weaken the British government? And if she wasn't, then I believe that's a misstep from her character. She should conflicted, and feel the walls closing in from both the British and Quantum. Her death in the film, involves little pressure from Quantum, if she is happily doing business with them.

    Maybe not an angel then, but it feels like we’re seeing this woman purely from Bond’s POV. I sometimes feel she’s lacking a bit in substance/character because of that, and she doesn’t always feel real (or at least comes off a bit one dimensional). It’s certainly a contrast to Tiffany Case and Gala Brand - characters who seem quite fleshed out, have pasts, and seem more human (not to mention we even get snippets from Brand’s perspective which helps).

    I think Vesper’s conflict is pretty clear in the film, and I got the sense her giving over the money is a last resort, as well as her death. It’s different to the novel, but for a film I think it’s much better.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 4,054
    007HallY wrote: »
    Actually I’d say the film Vesper is an improvement on her literary counterpart too. She lacks a bit of personality even when she goes into full blown hysteria by the end. Much like Fleming’s Tracy there’s that element that she’s more this angelic image (although obviously this is all shattered by the end) than a fully fledged person.

    Vesper, an angel? I don't really see that. Bond is initially attracted to her because of her cold, professional demeanour, and wants to shatter that (despite his belief that women get attracted to him and do a poor job).

    Well Vesper lowers her guard over dinner as Bond lowers his and then he gets mad, he gets even madder when she gets captured, and then afterwards he sees her as a way to test if his parts are working. Only after all this he falls in love.

    In the film I suppose the relationship feels more real, more like they shared more emotionally with each other. But Vesper's death obviously is something for me is done worse in the film. If Vesper had gotten away with giving the money to Gettler, would she have killed herself? If she was, why end up with the same result and weaken the British government? And if she wasn't, then I believe that's a misstep from her character. She should conflicted, and feel the walls closing in from both the British and Quantum. Her death in the film, involves little pressure from Quantum, if she is happily doing business with them.

    I don't think that's @007HallY meant, I can interpret it in a way, that Vesper, much like Tracy was lacking in terms of characterization, Vesper, lacked personality, while Tracy was more like a personification, a symbolization of something (of an angel image) than being actual human being, just like Vesper, who didn't felt like a human because she lacked complexity.

    That's how I interpret it, comparison.
  • edited 3:32pm Posts: 5,686
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Actually I’d say the film Vesper is an improvement on her literary counterpart too. She lacks a bit of personality even when she goes into full blown hysteria by the end. Much like Fleming’s Tracy there’s that element that she’s more this angelic image (although obviously this is all shattered by the end) than a fully fledged person.

    Vesper, an angel? I don't really see that. Bond is initially attracted to her because of her cold, professional demeanour, and wants to shatter that (despite his belief that women get attracted to him and do a poor job).

    Well Vesper lowers her guard over dinner as Bond lowers his and then he gets mad, he gets even madder when she gets captured, and then afterwards he sees her as a way to test if his parts are working. Only after all this he falls in love.

    In the film I suppose the relationship feels more real, more like they shared more emotionally with each other. But Vesper's death obviously is something for me is done worse in the film. If Vesper had gotten away with giving the money to Gettler, would she have killed herself? If she was, why end up with the same result and weaken the British government? And if she wasn't, then I believe that's a misstep from her character. She should conflicted, and feel the walls closing in from both the British and Quantum. Her death in the film, involves little pressure from Quantum, if she is happily doing business with them.

    I don't think that's @007HallY meant, I can interpret it in a way, that Vesper, much like Tracy was lacking in terms of characterization, Vesper, lacked personality, while Tracy was more like a personification, a symbolization of something (of an angel image) than being actual human being, just like Vesper, who didn't felt like a human because she lacked complexity.

    That's how I interpret it, comparison.

    Yeah, that’s probably a better/more fleshed out way of saying it. I don’t think she’s one of Fleming’s best written characters, and his Bond girls got more interesting later on.
  • OK, I can understand the point of view. Vesper does lack in terms of interest, something that the film does better with the byplay and banter between the characters.

    We do actually see Vesper's perspective in the novel but it is very Bond-centric (she's pleased that Bond is attracted to her, frustrated that he's a bit cold).
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited 4:15pm Posts: 4,054
    OK, I can understand the point of view. Vesper does lack in terms of interest, something that the film does better with the byplay and banter between the characters.

    We do actually see Vesper's perspective in the novel but it is very Bond-centric (she's pleased that Bond is attracted to her, frustrated that he's a bit cold).

    One thing I liked about Vesper in the book was how she managed to be professional and more neutral or more in quiet demeanor, and I don't think she betrayed Bond, she made her moves before and in the events of CR, she wanted an escape, something that she regretted completely, and when she knew she was being followed by Gettler, and knew that Bond could've been possibly involved and hurt, as she's falling in love with him or fell in love with him, she committed suicide, but at least, she wrote a letter, explaining things to Bond, so Bond knows the answer, he was aware of the situation she was in. Sure, Bond was conflicted towards Vesper, but I think Vesper loved Bond, and she's understanding him, she sacrificed herself for him, not betrayed him by committing suicide for the reason to quit herself out of Quantum's agendas, in the book, she committed suicide out of her love for Bond.

    Unlike in the film where she committed suicide, leaving Bond with many questions, she's not conflicted, she's straight point to the plan of doing her plans with Quantum, Bond was someone she manipulated, emotionally, his feelings, I don't think she cared for Bond when she committed suicide in the film, she saw it as escape from what she did, she avoided being confronted by Bond, she avoided being caught and all, Vesper in the book, again, sacrificed herself, that's why that letter in the book held more significance of showing Vesper's real intentions or how she's acting paranoid towards the end everytime she spotted Gettler, she loved Bond, so rather than have both of them suffer, she would rather sacrificed herself so Bond could live in peace.

    And yes, the way she interacted with Bond, was abrasive and more confident, her crying in the shower was still I don't understand regarding her background, if she's that abrasive towards Bond.
  • The thing is with Novel Vesper is that Bond describes her as coldly disinterested but that really is never the case. Perhaps it's a way of describing something else; her eyes, or her posture or some other body language, but after their first meeting she is perpetually interested in Bond, and she even tries to chase his affection over dinner in the casino. She is a bit naive in their relationship (and Bond is too).

    Film Vesper is more buyable as coldly disinterested in Bond. She finds him attractive but doesn't act on it because of how cold he seems. She is less naive in their relationship, so the film pivots to accentuating her naivety with field work. That makes sense; in the novel Vesper worked in MI6 with Soviet Section doing radio work and was ex-WRNS, meaning she had job experience. In the film, she was civil servant at the treasure, meaning little experience with Bond's world (thus the crying in the shower). It's an interesting character decision.

    I agree that Film Vesper's actions make less sense in comparison to Novel Vesper's. But I think she makes a more interesting character.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,816
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    The only issue/continuity with Vesper is that she's only revealed to be 23 when she died

    That's the least of NTTD's many problems though, it's a part of NTTD's so many problems.

    How can that even be considered a problem? It's a blink-and-you-miss-it detail that is never relevant to the plot whatsoever.
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