Controversial opinions about Bond films

1715716717718719721»

Comments

  • Posts: 65
    I’ve always said Brosnan’s films were a serious case of diminishing returns - GE is excellent, TND isn’t as good but still a lot of fun, TWINE is somehow much less than the sum of its parts and the less said about DAD the better.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,302
    I always used to say that the Brosnan films went downward towards the bottom of the franchise (DAD). So yes, my ranking is probably still GE > TND > TWINE > DAD. But I'm not so sure any more that there is a real quality difference between the first two...meaning TND might take the upper hand, if only slightly, when I'm in the mood. By the same token, I'm no longer firmly convinced that TWINE is any better than DAD when I think about it. But that's about which one is last and which one is second to last, so it's futile to even really care.
  • Quantum of Solace uses the Bond theme the best out of any Craig era effort (alongside NTTD).

    The Bond Theme is generally used for three reasons:
    1. A quiet action scene without any big fighting or stunts
    2. A loud action scene with big stunts or a big fight (like in TSLWM when the parachute comes up). Could be during the stunt/fight, or could bookend a stunt/fight with a hint of 3.
    3. A scene where Bond comes off as cool; (to sort of certify the Bondness of a moment)

    Generally people enjoy 2; because the loud moments are kind of what makes Bond Bond. Quantum of Solace has 4 action scenes (car chase, boat chase, plane chase, hotel fight) and they don't generally use the Bond theme that much*.

    *Time to Get Out opens and closes with the 4 notes, and the boat chase ends with a pretty bomabstic rendition of the Bond theme.

    However, Quantum not more reserved, but more quiet with the Bond theme. There's where he seduces Fields, which sounds like it could come out of Thunderball. The there's obviously when he sees Fields is dead and escapes from the MI6 men, which probably stands out as the film's most memorable. The theme plays when Greene's left in the desert, and also when Bond walks off into the snow.

    Now obviously QoS uses motifs based on the main theme that require a bit more of a searching ear to discover, but all the more obvious uses are in quieter and less bombastic moments. I don't think some Barry films would outstrip QoS's 4/5 obvious and elsewise silent Bond theme uses.

    In terms of the other Craig films, the Bond theme is used, but in a repetitive sense. The same arrangement is reused quite a bit between Skyfall and Spectre. I think QoS (and NTTD) thus stand unique in this sense; a lot of the Bond theme used originally, albeit in more quiet moments.
  • edited June 25 Posts: 12,792
    Since I see it often complained about, I might as well add on here that I love the sinking house sequence in CR. "Fall of a House in Venice" is one of my favorite tracks, I find the action really awesome - particularly the electrocution and nail gun bits - and it feels properly symbolic with the house sinking being of course how Bond and Vesper's relationship is crumbling fast and nastily. I really think the more subtle approach regarding Vesper's demise works better for the novel, but likewise the more intense, action-heavy approach the movie goes for complements it better. After all, CR the novel is much less action-packed in general, while the movie has plenty of action and spectacle and honestly would have felt like a big sequence was missing without this climax.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,642
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Since I see it often complained about, I might as well add on here that I love the sinking house sequence in CR. "Fall of a House in Venice" is one of my favorite tracks, I find the action really awesome - particularly the electrocution and nail gun bits - and it feels properly symbolic with the house sinking being of course how Bond and Vesper's relationship is crumbling fast and nastily. I really think the more subtle approach regarding Vesper's demise works better for the novel, but likewise the more intense, action-heavy approach the movie goes for complements it better. After all, CR the novel is much less action-packed in general, while the movie has plenty of action and spectacle and honestly would have felt like a big sequence was missing without this climax.

    I don't disagree with that, which may sound a bit tepid but let me elaborate ;)

    I think CR has one of the best finales in the series. It's a superb action scene in a gorgeous location, suitably having Bond sneaking up behind enemies with his silenecd gun instead of mowing down everyone in sight with a machine gun.

    I have always been in the minority that prefers CR's last third over the the first one, since I am not the biggest fan of the Bond Begins-angle. I also like Bond a lot better in the final part of the film than his overconfident persona of the beginning.

    I do think Vesper's demise is bordering on the overdramatic, though it just restrains itself enough for me to not put that label on it. Something I think NTTD doesn't quite succeed in (but that's another discussion).
  • edited June 25 Posts: 12,792
    @GoldenGun Interesting take on preferring the last third to the first one. For me, it's just consistently incredible start to finish, but I like your unique opinion on that.

    There's something else I really want to say on this thread, actually. I often see Dalton and Craig being cited as the coldest, scariest Bonds, but I think it's actually Connery by a long shot. You don't want to get on Dalton and Craig's bad side, of course, but they still show significantly more vulnerability and human sides to them than Connery ever does. It's struck me more and more watching these films over the years that Connery's Bond is particularly the most ruthless and emotionally detached of them all. There are very, very few times he is relatable in a warmer sense; a couple that come to mind are him admitting to Honey he is scared in DN and saying "how can a friend be in debt?" to Kerim Bey in FRWL, but there's really not much else I can think of. He lacks the level of warmth we see all the other Bonds have with some of the women they're with, and his nasty side is arguably scarier than all the others.
  • edited June 25 Posts: 2,179
    FoxRox wrote: »
    @GoldenGun Interesting take on preferring the last third to the first one. For me, it's just consistently incredible start to finish, but I like your unique opinion on that.

    There's something else I really want to say on this thread, actually. I often see Dalton and Craig being cited as the coldest, scariest Bonds, but I think it's actually Connery by a long shot. You don't want to get on Dalton and Craig's bad side, of course, but they still show significantly more vulnerability and human sides to them than Connery ever does. It's struck me more and more watching these films over the years that Connery's Bond is particularly the most ruthless and emotionally detached of them all. There are very, very few times he is relatable in a warmer sense; a couple that come to mind are him admitting to Honey he is scared in DN and saying "how can a friend be in debt?" to Kerim Bey in FRWL, but there's really not much else I can think of. He lacks the level of warmth we see all the other Bonds have with some of the women they're with, and his nasty side is arguably scarier than all the others.

    Connery used to have good chemistry with actresses, so I don't think it's a problem of coldness either. The spark was there.

    You could say that his bond enjoyed women. He likes being with them even if he doesn't treat them particularly well.
  • edited June 25 Posts: 12,792
    FoxRox wrote: »
    @GoldenGun Interesting take on preferring the last third to the first one. For me, it's just consistently incredible start to finish, but I like your unique opinion on that.

    There's something else I really want to say on this thread, actually. I often see Dalton and Craig being cited as the coldest, scariest Bonds, but I think it's actually Connery by a long shot. You don't want to get on Dalton and Craig's bad side, of course, but they still show significantly more vulnerability and human sides to them than Connery ever does. It's struck me more and more watching these films over the years that Connery's Bond is particularly the most ruthless and emotionally detached of them all. There are very, very few times he is relatable in a warmer sense; a couple that come to mind are him admitting to Honey he is scared in DN and saying "how can a friend be in debt?" to Kerim Bey in FRWL, but there's really not much else I can think of. He lacks the level of warmth we see all the other Bonds have with some of the women they're with, and his nasty side is arguably scarier than all the others.

    Connery used to have good chemistry with actresses, so I don't think it's a problem of coldness either. The spark was there.

    You could say that his bond enjoyed women. He likes being with them even if he doesn't treat them particularly well.

    The chemistry was there, absolutely. When I said cold, I mean he enjoys them for simple pleasure and at a surface level more than as meaningful partners, as you kind of put it. I’d argue all the other 5 Bonds seemed to form more serious attachments to a few of the women they were with and seemed to care about them as people more frequently.
  • Posts: 2,179
    Craig was more like a grouch with a heart of gold.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 18,395
    FoxRox wrote: »
    @GoldenGun Interesting take on preferring the last third to the first one. For me, it's just consistently incredible start to finish, but I like your unique opinion on that.

    There's something else I really want to say on this thread, actually. I often see Dalton and Craig being cited as the coldest, scariest Bonds, but I think it's actually Connery by a long shot. You don't want to get on Dalton and Craig's bad side, of course, but they still show significantly more vulnerability and human sides to them than Connery ever does. It's struck me more and more watching these films over the years that Connery's Bond is particularly the most ruthless and emotionally detached of them all. There are very, very few times he is relatable in a warmer sense; a couple that come to mind are him admitting to Honey he is scared in DN and saying "how can a friend be in debt?" to Kerim Bey in FRWL, but there's really not much else I can think of. He lacks the level of warmth we see all the other Bonds have with some of the women they're with, and his nasty side is arguably scarier than all the others.

    Yeah, he's immensely charismatic and cool of course, but Connery's is probably the least human Bond, I tend to think. He has, I feel, the least emotional depth of any of them.
    And when you say he's scary, I think that's probably strongest in Dr No, where he's actually quite an abrasive and humourless person, and really quite cold as you say. I actually think they decided to tone that down a little for FRWL.
  • edited June 25 Posts: 5,519
    I think a problem with the way they adapted DN is that Bond is mostly one step ahead until he gets captured at Crab Key, to the point he's able to anticipate many of the traps the villains lay out for him. You get less a sense that the has to navigate some dark conspiracy that he doesn't fully understand (unlike the novel he's not at odds with any British officials in Jamaica, for example) but more like he's breezing through most of it. It somewhat makes the Three Blind Mice, Jones, and Dent look a bit... well, incompetent too. It also doesn't give Connery as much to work with in terms of Bond being human, and the script emphasises his coldness due to these decisions.

    With FRWL there's much more a sense he doesn't know how the whole thing is going to pan out. He seems to have genuine affection for Tanya, and there's much more a sense that he's in danger with Grant gaining the upper hand on him. So I agree, I think he's noticeably more human in FRWL.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 733
    007HallY wrote: »
    I think a problem with the way they adapted DN is that Bond is mostly one step ahead until he gets captured at Crab Key, to the point he's able to anticipate many of the traps the villains lay out for him. You get less a sense that the has to navigate some dark conspiracy that he doesn't fully understand (unlike the novel he's not at odds with any British officials in Jamaica, for example) but more like he's breezing through most of it. It somewhat makes the Three Blind Mice, Jones, and Dent look a bit... well, incompetent too. It also doesn't give Connery as much to work with in terms of Bond being human, and the script emphasises his coldness due to these decisions.

    With FRWL there's much more a sense he doesn't know how the whole thing is going to pan out. He seems to have genuine affection for Tanya, and there's much more a sense that he's in danger with Grant gaining the upper hand on him. So I agree, I think he's noticeably more human in FRWL.

    What always got me with Dr No is underwhelming the eponymous villain is. Locking Bond up in an easily escapable room.

    The book made a lot more sense in Bond's escape.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,801
    007HallY wrote: »
    I think a problem with the way they adapted DN is that Bond is mostly one step ahead until he gets captured at Crab Key, to the point he's able to anticipate many of the traps the villains lay out for him. You get less a sense that the has to navigate some dark conspiracy that he doesn't fully understand (unlike the novel he's not at odds with any British officials in Jamaica, for example) but more like he's breezing through most of it. It somewhat makes the Three Blind Mice, Jones, and Dent look a bit... well, incompetent too. It also doesn't give Connery as much to work with in terms of Bond being human, and the script emphasises his coldness due to these decisions.

    With FRWL there's much more a sense he doesn't know how the whole thing is going to pan out. He seems to have genuine affection for Tanya, and there's much more a sense that he's in danger with Grant gaining the upper hand on him. So I agree, I think he's noticeably more human in FRWL.

    What always got me with Dr No is underwhelming the eponymous villain is. Locking Bond up in an easily escapable room.

    The book made a lot more sense in Bond's escape.

    I wouldn't call it 'an easily escapable room', considering him beeing electrocuted, then having to past the spiders, the heat, etc. But what it IS lacking, iirc, is the part where Dr. No observes him, to see how he gets through. In the book, that gives the feeling that no matter what Bond does, he won't make it as there's a sort of 'end boss' to the wicked game (ages before video gmaes were invented). The film lacks that part, so you don't get that feeling, you don't think it was a set-up and Bond will be confronted with the impossible last hurdle.

    Connery played Bond with a far stronger emotional shield. The killing of Kerim is a good example: he's definately feeling the loss, you can see it in his face, but he collects himself in seconds (and Kerim's personal belongings) to continue his work. Same goes for how he treats Tanya after the betrayal. In Thunderball, he puts up his sunglasses before telling Domino what happened to her brother. In later films, the emotions are shown more, to make Bond more relatable. But I think that's also a sign of the times: my father's generation (pre-boomer and boomer) were tought to not show emotions. So theirs are far less obvious, but sure are there nonetheless. I think that's how you should see Connery's performance as well. His BOnd isn't emotionally less connected, but it is shown in a different way and, as it stays close to the book-version, he chooses to let the work be prioritised over emotional impact.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 733
    007HallY wrote: »
    I think a problem with the way they adapted DN is that Bond is mostly one step ahead until he gets captured at Crab Key, to the point he's able to anticipate many of the traps the villains lay out for him. You get less a sense that the has to navigate some dark conspiracy that he doesn't fully understand (unlike the novel he's not at odds with any British officials in Jamaica, for example) but more like he's breezing through most of it. It somewhat makes the Three Blind Mice, Jones, and Dent look a bit... well, incompetent too. It also doesn't give Connery as much to work with in terms of Bond being human, and the script emphasises his coldness due to these decisions.

    With FRWL there's much more a sense he doesn't know how the whole thing is going to pan out. He seems to have genuine affection for Tanya, and there's much more a sense that he's in danger with Grant gaining the upper hand on him. So I agree, I think he's noticeably more human in FRWL.

    What always got me with Dr No is underwhelming the eponymous villain is. Locking Bond up in an easily escapable room.

    The book made a lot more sense in Bond's escape.

    I wouldn't call it 'an easily escapable room', considering him beeing electrocuted, then having to past the spiders, the heat, etc. But what it IS lacking, iirc, is the part where Dr. No observes him, to see how he gets through. In the book, that gives the feeling that no matter what Bond does, he won't make it as there's a sort of 'end boss' to the wicked game (ages before video gmaes were invented). The film lacks that part, so you don't get that feeling, you don't think it was a set-up and Bond will be confronted with the impossible last hurdle.

    Connery played Bond with a far stronger emotional shield. The killing of Kerim is a good example: he's definately feeling the loss, you can see it in his face, but he collects himself in seconds (and Kerim's personal belongings) to continue his work. Same goes for how he treats Tanya after the betrayal. In Thunderball, he puts up his sunglasses before telling Domino what happened to her brother. In later films, the emotions are shown more, to make Bond more relatable. But I think that's also a sign of the times: my father's generation (pre-boomer and boomer) were tought to not show emotions. So theirs are far less obvious, but sure are there nonetheless. I think that's how you should see Connery's performance as well. His BOnd isn't emotionally less connected, but it is shown in a different way and, as it stays close to the book-version, he chooses to let the work be prioritised over emotional impact.

    Not unfair, but the film has a light shock, getting soaked and little besides. The book has a proper gauntlet and all watched by Dr No. Culminates in Bond fighting a giant squid. I guess I am comparing them unfavourably, though. Prefer the film to book, ultimately.

    You've got Connery down to a tee and I'm convinced he wanted more range with 007. He looks bored in both tb and yolt. In daf and nsna, he cocks about for the cash.

    A strong argument for his talent going to waste as 007, despite some brilliant work.
  • edited June 25 Posts: 5,519
    007HallY wrote: »
    I think a problem with the way they adapted DN is that Bond is mostly one step ahead until he gets captured at Crab Key, to the point he's able to anticipate many of the traps the villains lay out for him. You get less a sense that the has to navigate some dark conspiracy that he doesn't fully understand (unlike the novel he's not at odds with any British officials in Jamaica, for example) but more like he's breezing through most of it. It somewhat makes the Three Blind Mice, Jones, and Dent look a bit... well, incompetent too. It also doesn't give Connery as much to work with in terms of Bond being human, and the script emphasises his coldness due to these decisions.

    With FRWL there's much more a sense he doesn't know how the whole thing is going to pan out. He seems to have genuine affection for Tanya, and there's much more a sense that he's in danger with Grant gaining the upper hand on him. So I agree, I think he's noticeably more human in FRWL.

    What always got me with Dr No is underwhelming the eponymous villain is. Locking Bond up in an easily escapable room.

    The book made a lot more sense in Bond's escape.

    It's one part of the Austin Powers rule. Have to feed Bond before putting him in an escapable situation. You can't just shoot him ;)

    I do agree it's better in the book. Actually the novel's quite dark and sinister with No's human death maze, and it plays into Bond's confidence taking a knock due to his near death experience in FRWL/him ultimately escaping the unescapable maze. I guess it was cut/adapted that way because they couldn't afford spiders or anything quite as elaborate? And it makes Bond look quite brilliant working out a way to escape... I dunno...
  • Posts: 1,964
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I've had enough viewings of TND now to be convinced that the Brosnan era should be looked at as "half-good, half-bad" rather than "one-hit wonder." Of course, GE is the mostly universally beloved title, while the latter three are all pretty looked down upon. While TWINE went worse for me than ever before and DAD remained my least favorite in the series, TND yet again improved for me. It has gone from near the very bottom all the way to my Top 15 now. Elliot Carver in particular I've come to really love as a villain, whereas I used to think he was one of the series' weakest. I hope TND gets a reappraisal from the masses. I think it's a little too actiony and the climax is so-so, but most of the action sequences are spectacular, Brosnan is at his best, the Bond girl is great, and so are the villains. David Arnold's first score is also still one of his best.

    It's Brosnan's best movie in my opinion. It's not a very original film but it's fun and it suits him best.

    As you all know, I never considered GE to be that good. I mean, GE wasn't John Le Carré either but it is less fun. I never understood the appeal of this movie. It must be a generational thing.

    TWINE is boring and DAD is another fun movie but with quite a few questionable things.

    I think in the end it is TND that manages to be what it aims to be.

    We think the exact same on the Brosnan era. Maybe it is a generational thing, I just know it wasn't a great time for the series for me.

    Right from first viewing I didn't get the love for GE. It delivers the expected tropes in sometimes clumsy ways and puts a shiny new '90s coat on everything else to make it feel fresh, but just doesn't all hold together.

    TND is that throwback to the late '70s Moore films and is upfront about it and that's why it works. When you add the more personal touches like the Kauffman scene, drinking in the hotel and so on, it doesn't overwhelm or give it the false sense of where it's going. It also gives a bit of a Craig era preview with more partnership with Wai-Lin than just a romantic one, which is where TWINE was awful in just having to add the flavor of the moment actress with the cute name that Bond has to end up with.

    TWINE is the bottom of the barrel for me and why DAD has more appeal despite its flaws. I actually feel Brosnan gives his most effective performance in it.

  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    edited June 29 Posts: 8,801
    BT3366 wrote: »

    It's Brosnan's best movie in my opinion. It's not a very original film but it's fun and it suits him best.

    As you all know, I never considered GE to be that good. I mean, GE wasn't John Le Carré either but it is less fun. I never understood the appeal of this movie. It must be a generational thing.



    Well, as a nineties kid, I remember that in 93, 94, Bond was conidered dead and buried, 'now that the iron curtain has fallen'. There wouldn't be a future for such a 'relic of the cold war'. It was a sentiment widely adopted and published. So, when GE took this up, and showed there WAS a place for Bond in the 'new world', yes, there was a lot of enthusiasm. I think it actually portrays the dangers of 'the wild east' quite accurately.

    I like the film because of the story, some of the set pieces (St. Petersburg), the amazing jump off the dam. The execution wasn't all that good, indeed. The mig into the radar, the spectacular motor jump after the plane, followed up by a stupid Bond shaking a milkcan in the cockpit and then miraculously making it whilst he should've hit the ground ages ago. But that doesn't take away the very important role the film played in the franchise.

    And Brosnan WAS very popular as Bond. It's just in hintsight a lot less impressive because we've seen how Daniel Craig managed to put almost all predecessors in his shadow, and probably Brosnan the most as he was his immediate predecessor.
  • edited June 29 Posts: 2,600
    I don't think Craig's portrayal put his predecessors in his shadow - especially considering his era was every bit as let down by poor writing as Brosnan's was save for two films. It stands nicely alongside the other portrayals over the years - and yeah for a particular generation he is their Bond much like Moore and Brosnan before him - but the notion that his portrayal has become so definitive that others seem lightweight in comparison is a bit unfair and takes away from what the others have done with the role.

    If anything Connery still remains the gold standard for the others to live up too.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 18,395
    I’d agree with CmrRoss that Brosnan has come off the worst after Craig, mainly because his period flirted with adding drama to Bond which all looks rather half-hearted next to the films which followed. They also tried to make him look tough at times, again paling in comparison to Craig who believably was a tough guy. Brosnan looks a bit fey to me now.
  • Don't remember where I saw it but I think the pattern is "last Bond bad, 2 Bonds ago good." The sentiment on this forum is already starting to slide against Craig and pro-Brosnan, and I feel like I've seen relatively similar trends elsewhere.
  • edited June 29 Posts: 2,600
    mtm wrote: »
    I’d agree with CmrRoss that Brosnan has come off the worst after Craig, mainly because his period flirted with adding drama to Bond which all looks rather half-hearted next to the films which followed. They also tried to make him look tough at times, again paling in comparison to Craig who believably was a tough guy. Brosnan looks a bit fey to me now.

    Again I disagree with this assessment. I don’t think the drama inserted into the Craig films was any more sophisticated than Brosnan’s - setting aside Casino Royale and Skyfall of course. Say what you will about the writing behind some of Brosnan’s films - but they never stooped so low as to introduce ideas like Brofeld and they never attempted to retcon all his films to tie together to give the illusion of continuity in a half hearted way which I think is the biggest flaw of Craig’s era. I can appreciate that people like the drama Craig’s films had - but at times it felt very much like I was watching some sort of hybrid between “modern action film” and a “soap opera” (a criticism used to describe TWINE) and it felt very repetitive by the end of his era. I got sick and tired of all the twists and turns and in the end just really wanted a good old fashioned Bond film without all the personal baggage Craig’s era brought. I thought Brosnan was very convincing when he had to be tough - if anything he’s one of the coldest Bond’s I’d say and I think it’s all the more impressive when Brosnan can switch back and forth between Sophisticated Ladies Man and remorseless killer - whereas I felt Craig’s Bond was in constant “brute” mode - lacking a taste for the finer things in life - and constantly hating his job. Craig’s Bond may be more in line with Fleming’s vision - but I just think Brosnan is the better Cinematic Bond and the more entertaining one to watch. That’s just my opinion though.
    Don't remember where I saw it but I think the pattern is "last Bond bad, 2 Bonds ago good." The sentiment on this forum is already starting to slide against Craig and pro-Brosnan, and I feel like I've seen relatively similar trends elsewhere.

    I’m not sure how true this is. From what I’ve seen I think this forum in particular can very much be “Pro-Craig” at the expense of throwing Brosnan and the other actors some criticism but if you look elsewhere online you’ll find the opposite. I know the James Bond Reddit page has a rather large number of users who are Pro-Brosnan - but I think this site is still the harshest when it comes to Pierce’s era - which is fine because people can have their opinions and we can debate them in a civil way.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 733
    mtm wrote: »
    I’d agree with CmrRoss that Brosnan has come off the worst after Craig, mainly because his period flirted with adding drama to Bond which all looks rather half-hearted next to the films which followed. They also tried to make him look tough at times, again paling in comparison to Craig who believably was a tough guy. Brosnan looks a bit fey to me now.

    I'd say the likes of TWINE and DAD are polished, not improved, by the likes of SF.

    Both Craig and Brosnan's tenure suffers from attempting a Dalton-esque approach to the narrative, whilst simultaneously failing to add the flighty joie de vivre of the originals.

    Brosnan comes off smug and Craig pretentious.

    I'd still watch all of the films (yes, dad included), but with the sickly tang of disappointment.
Sign In or Register to comment.