Does NO TIME TO DIE have the best ending in the franchise?

12526272830

Comments

  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,502
    Well into the teen numbers of viewings and still enjoying this film immensely. The ending doesn't bother me in the slightest anymore. I just admire Craig's acting and Zimmer's powerful music when i watch it now.

    I'll never get tired of Craig's badass stairway battle and i love the nonchalant way he shoots Safin.

    I always hark back to the Moonraker novel, when Bond surmises as a double 0 he probably won't live to reach his retirement age of 45.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,215
    I'll never get tired of Craig's badass stairway battle and i love the nonchalant way he shoots Safin.

    I really like that and I felt the same in the cinema: the Bond villain is just an irrelevance at that point, to be quickly disposed of and barely thought about. There are much more important things to worry about, I thought that they dealt with that just right.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,502
    mtm wrote: »
    I'll never get tired of Craig's badass stairway battle and i love the nonchalant way he shoots Safin.

    I really like that and I felt the same in the cinema: the Bond villain is just an irrelevance at that point, to be quickly disposed of and barely thought about. There are much more important things to worry about, I thought that they dealt with that just right.

    Yep. I love the way Bond doesn't even look at him when he fires. Ice cold!
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,956
    mtm wrote: »
    I'll never get tired of Craig's badass stairway battle and i love the nonchalant way he shoots Safin.

    I really like that and I felt the same in the cinema: the Bond villain is just an irrelevance at that point, to be quickly disposed of and barely thought about. There are much more important things to worry about, I thought that they dealt with that just right.

    Yep. I love the way Bond doesn't even look at him when he fires. Ice cold!

    That really is a great moment in the film. I also love Craig's little gun barrel pose on the stairway. The ending doesn't bother me either.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,677
    Seve wrote: »
    That’s the risk of shaking up the status quo with these films, isn’t it? You sort of run out of road. With the traditional “Bond gets the girl” the possibilities for the next film are always the limitlessness that comes with any Bond mission. But when you are taking the character on a big multi-movie arc that demands change and progr you run out of road eventually. Killing Bond was the only ending that really made sense for NTTD given how the Craig movies escalated to it.

    Does that mean that you believe that every heroic character who uses violence must eventually die violently?
    He who lives by the sword dies by the sword?

    I certainly agree that Babs-Eon and Craig developed a fatalistic attitude toward Bond, particularly after the success of Skyfall, where they decided on the death of M as a dramatic send off for Dame Judy. Modern audiences seem to love to wallow in melodrama, and what could possibly top that, other than the death of Bond himself?

    All part of the current fashion for constantly building up and then killing off significant characters for surprise twist value, which, in the Bond-verse, began with Mathis, who was introduced and built up in CR before being despatched, for shock effect, in QoS.

    Never happened to Dirty Harry / Rambo / Rocky / John McLane or Martin Riggs, but I guess they never made it to 25 (27) editions... even John Wayne eventually died on screen in 1972 (The Cowboys)

    However, pre Craig, Movie-Bond was never that sort of character and it will remain a subject for debate whether he should be.

    No, it didn't happen to Rocky...BUT...he did LOSE that match to Creed (in the original film). And I believe that made it a far more impactful film.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,768
    TripAces wrote: »
    Seve wrote: »
    That’s the risk of shaking up the status quo with these films, isn’t it? You sort of run out of road. With the traditional “Bond gets the girl” the possibilities for the next film are always the limitlessness that comes with any Bond mission. But when you are taking the character on a big multi-movie arc that demands change and progr you run out of road eventually. Killing Bond was the only ending that really made sense for NTTD given how the Craig movies escalated to it.

    Does that mean that you believe that every heroic character who uses violence must eventually die violently?
    He who lives by the sword dies by the sword?

    I certainly agree that Babs-Eon and Craig developed a fatalistic attitude toward Bond, particularly after the success of Skyfall, where they decided on the death of M as a dramatic send off for Dame Judy. Modern audiences seem to love to wallow in melodrama, and what could possibly top that, other than the death of Bond himself?

    All part of the current fashion for constantly building up and then killing off significant characters for surprise twist value, which, in the Bond-verse, began with Mathis, who was introduced and built up in CR before being despatched, for shock effect, in QoS.

    Never happened to Dirty Harry / Rambo / Rocky / John McLane or Martin Riggs, but I guess they never made it to 25 (27) editions... even John Wayne eventually died on screen in 1972 (The Cowboys)

    However, pre Craig, Movie-Bond was never that sort of character and it will remain a subject for debate whether he should be.

    No, it didn't happen to Rocky...BUT...he did LOSE that match to Creed (in the original film). And I believe that made it a far more impactful film.

    The original Die Hard and the original Rambo scripts had their heroes dying. Martin Riggs died in the original draft of Lethal Weapon 2. The reason why notable heroes didn’t get killed off in many cases was producer-driven (sequels equals monnnnnay).

  • Posts: 12,637
    It certainly has caused the most disagreement between fan.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited June 24 Posts: 763
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    It certainly has caused the most disagreement between fan.

    Which is why the answer to the question posed by this thread is "No"
    Because NTTD's ending polarises opinions

    If the question was "Does DN have the best ending in the franchise?" there would be far less discussion, beacause that question would not be as controversial. Everyone might not agree that DN's ending was the "best", but very few, if any, would dislike it.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,758
    Well the question is by design subjective, so the Yes answer shouldn't be included out it my thinking.

    A more common denominator choice would likely draw more Yes responses, and be just as much opinion and supportable and valid. And I'm overthinking it.

    So YES, NTTD has the best ending because it dared so much and carried it out so successfully with love and respect.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited June 24 Posts: 763
    Well the question is by design subjective, so the Yes answer shouldn't be included out it my thinking.

    A more common denominator choice would likely draw more Yes responses, and be just as much opinion and supportable and valid. And I'm overthinking it.

    So YES, NTTD has the best ending because it dared so much and carried it out so successfully with love and respect.

    After specifying a very narrow definition of what "best ending" means to you, which is fine

    But if I wanted to use the sum of all the subjective data in this thread to make a general conclusion as to whether NTTD had the best ending, when compared to all the other endings, the results would be "mixed" and thus the overall verdict would be "NO".
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited August 8 Posts: 3,360
    Yes, the disdain with which Bond kills Safin was played exactly right. It's not even contempt, it's dismissive - Safin's not even a worthy enemy.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    Posts: 763
    Venutius wrote: »
    Yes, the disdain with which Bond kills Safin was played exactly right. It's not even contempt, it's dismissive - Safin's not even a worthy enemy.

    Which, to me anyway, is the last thing I want from a Bond villain

    I want the villain to be massively consequential (which Safin was)
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited August 12 Posts: 3,360
    Yet in many ways, he's also an inadequate. Money, power, agency, but what does he do with it? Tries to force the lost girl into his life. Not sure if there's meant to be a contrast there between Safin hung up on Madeleine for years and Bond's residual feelings for Vesper, and the different ways they've dealt with it, but the case could be made for it. Safin has the potential to be a supervillain, but his character flaws mean that his muddled plans are secondary to his near-incel obsession with a woman who doesn't want him. Instead of moving on and making a life, as Bond's at least tried to do, Safin's wasted his years on a love that won't ever be reciprocated. That's another part of his own tragedy. Having said all that, while I liked that they added a different texture to the villain in Safin's case, yes, I can see why others might've found those aspects unsatisfying.
  • Posts: 12,637
    It is certainly the most devisive!
  • Bond420Bond420 Space Coast
    Posts: 2
    I mean I wasn't completely expecting them to kill him , at least until the last 30 minutes or so. It was a little lackluster with the ending. It wasn't a feel good moment at all in the theater upon walking out.
  • I just saw NTTD for the first time since 2021. I thought I'd be de-sensitized to the ending by now, but it's still a tearjerker. Best ending in the franchise? I'd say it's on par with OHMSS, Casino, and Skyfall. All 4 of these films finish with a great tragedy.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 6,128
    The ending should have packed an emotional punch, but it didn't for me. After 4 films as Bond I should have been emotionally invested and I wasn't. Sadly this has tainted my view of the film as a whole and even how I view Craig.

    The death is based on technology that doesn't exist which therefore doesn't seem real. If Bond had been injected with a virus or something more tangible and real. After over 15 years of watching this character fight, claw and show resilience and yet he meekly accepts his fate and says bye to his girlfriend and child, it rings false to the character.

    Then to supposedly have this Bond be a re-boot and to be stand alone from the main series, but we decide to bring in a song associated with another version of the character, to bring a saying that was used in a different context into this film seems...like a cheat.

    Write a new damn song that sums up this Bond. Leave the saying with the character the first time. Don't cheat and bring it into this film. I almost resent them for doing this and I shouldn't feel that way.

  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,934
    thedove wrote: »
    The ending should have packed an emotional punch, but it didn't for me. After 4 films as Bond I should have been emotionally invested and I wasn't. Sadly this has tainted my view of the film as a whole and even how I view Craig.

    The death is based on technology that doesn't exist which therefore doesn't seem real. If Bond had been injected with a virus or something more tangible and real. After over 15 years of watching this character fight, claw and show resilience and yet he meekly accepts his fate and says bye to his girlfriend and child, it rings false to the character.

    Then to supposedly have this Bond be a re-boot and to be stand alone from the main series, but we decide to bring in a song associated with another version of the character, to bring a saying that was used in a different context into this film seems...like a cheat.

    Write a new damn song that sums up this Bond. Leave the saying with the character the first time. Don't cheat and bring it into this film. I almost resent them for doing this and I shouldn't feel that way.

    I'm not too bothered with the references to earlier films, as I've always taken them as sagas, not true to time-and-place stories. But I agree with you on the nanobot plot. And hence the 'inconvenience' of the daughter. I know even Fleming's Bond had (well, was about to have a) child, but connecting Bond to the child was by definition going to be his death sentence.
    Which I don't mind that much in itself, it just feels convoluted and as said, the means by which he is forced to be killed/have himself killed feels way too much purpose-set.
    Btw, the best ending to the series is QoS, if you ask me. It's the most powerful emotional positive ending, without overtly being so.
  • Yes I think it has
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,215
    A problem I’ve always had with the QoS ending is that it really feels like a ripoff of the end of Bourne Supremacy to me. They could have at least used a different location.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited September 20 Posts: 6,979
    mtm wrote: »
    A problem I’ve always had with the QoS ending is that it really feels like a ripoff of the end of Bourne Supremacy to me. They could have at least used a different location.

    Agreed. I guess the snow was the fourth element? Whatever, Forster.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,914
    echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    A problem I’ve always had with the QoS ending is that it really feels like a ripoff of the end of Bourne Supremacy to me. They could have at least used a different location.

    Agreed. I guess the snow was the fourth element? Whatever, Forster.

    You could say QoS was Bourne Again.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,934
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    A problem I’ve always had with the QoS ending is that it really feels like a ripoff of the end of Bourne Supremacy to me. They could have at least used a different location.

    Agreed. I guess the snow was the fourth element? Whatever, Forster.

    You could say QoS was Bourne Again.

    I think that's a bit harsh. Bond sticks to his job, dispite everything. Bourne does the opposite. Which is fair, because he can't even remember what his job was in the first place. But still.
    And yes, I see the resemblance between those endings, but QoS's ending is no apology to Bond, or M, it's a confirmation of what we already knew. And a closure on Vesper. I find that very, very different indeed.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,979
    QoS has the same ending for Bond (and M) as CR, which is to say QoS wasn't strictly necessary.

    NTTD at least is something different.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 21 Posts: 19,215
    Yes I had that feeling coming out of it: ‘oh so he’s fully fledged James Bond. Again’. This time we’re given the gunbarrel instead of “Bond James Bond” to prove it. A bit like JJ Abrams’ Star Trek, where the first one had ended with everyone in their places on the Enterprise, then the second one Kirk got fired because even though we saw how he was ready to be a captain in the first one, suddenly he wasn’t ready again, but by the end they all took their places on the Enterprise. Again.

    My main issue with QOS is that they didn’t really have a strong story with Bond that needed telling. It’s sort of about revenge and how it’s not worth it, and about how M comes to trust him, but that doesn’t take up much of the film.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,934
    echo wrote: »
    QoS has the same ending for Bond (and M) as CR, which is to say QoS wasn't strictly necessary.

    NTTD at least is something different.

    I disagree. in CR, Bond loses his love, after beeing betrayed, and M doubts he is capable of keeping going after that.
    In QoS, it's Bond who's got his eyes on the assignment, and it's M who thinks he is so 'consumed by rage' he doesn't know what he's doing, at the end having to admit she was wrong, and Bond was far more professional than she held possible, without beeing the 'cold hearted bastard' she made him out to be. So, far from the same ending.
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes I had that feeling coming out of it: ‘oh so he’s fully fledged James Bond. Again’. This time we’re given the gunbarrel instead of “Bond James Bond” to prove it. A bit like JJ Abrams’ Star Trek, where the first one had ended with everyone in their places on the Enterprise, then the second one Kirk got fired because even though we saw how he was ready to be a captain in the first one, suddenly he wasn’t ready again, but by the end they all took their places on the Enterprise. Again.

    My main issue with QOS is that they didn’t really have a strong story with Bond that needed telling. It’s sort of about revenge and how it’s not worth it, and about how M comes to trust him, but that doesn’t take up much of the film.

    I thought telling the story of Bond keeping going and his focus on the job dispite everything - losing his love, losing M's trust, even beeing blamed for the death of those he cares about (Mathis, Fields) - is wort telling. He shows more character in this film than in any other.
  • edited September 22 Posts: 6,015
    echo wrote: »
    QoS has the same ending for Bond (and M) as CR, which is to say QoS wasn't strictly necessary.

    NTTD at least is something different.

    I disagree. in CR, Bond loses his love, after beeing betrayed, and M doubts he is capable of keeping going after that.
    In QoS, it's Bond who's got his eyes on the assignment, and it's M who thinks he is so 'consumed by rage' he doesn't know what he's doing, at the end having to admit she was wrong, and Bond was far more professional than she held possible, without beeing the 'cold hearted bastard' she made him out to be. So, far from the same ending.
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes I had that feeling coming out of it: ‘oh so he’s fully fledged James Bond. Again’. This time we’re given the gunbarrel instead of “Bond James Bond” to prove it. A bit like JJ Abrams’ Star Trek, where the first one had ended with everyone in their places on the Enterprise, then the second one Kirk got fired because even though we saw how he was ready to be a captain in the first one, suddenly he wasn’t ready again, but by the end they all took their places on the Enterprise. Again.

    My main issue with QOS is that they didn’t really have a strong story with Bond that needed telling. It’s sort of about revenge and how it’s not worth it, and about how M comes to trust him, but that doesn’t take up much of the film.

    I thought telling the story of Bond keeping going and his focus on the job dispite everything - losing his love, losing M's trust, even beeing blamed for the death of those he cares about (Mathis, Fields) - is wort telling. He shows more character in this film than in any other.

    Honestly, I agree with most of this (with the exception of Bond showing more character in this particular film, as I think he does more so in SF honestly). That's despite my criticisms of QOS! I remember watching CR and feeling like I needed more answers (ie. who the organisation actually is behind all this and how Vesper's death will impact Bond. Dramatically I think the latter would have felt odd not to see played out in some fashion onscreen, and I think this is why they revisited it after depicting it in this particular era).

    Isn't the ending to the Bourne Supremacy Bourne listening into his superior's phone call with him through a window or something? Then Moby plays and Matt Damon makes a serious face as he walks off into a street with a backpack. I could be wrong. Doesn't seem like a rip off even if some similar sentiments are there.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,979
    No, it's the one where Bourne goes to a snowy Russian apartment complex to confess that he killed the daughter's parents.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 22 Posts: 19,215
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes I had that feeling coming out of it: ‘oh so he’s fully fledged James Bond. Again’. This time we’re given the gunbarrel instead of “Bond James Bond” to prove it. A bit like JJ Abrams’ Star Trek, where the first one had ended with everyone in their places on the Enterprise, then the second one Kirk got fired because even though we saw how he was ready to be a captain in the first one, suddenly he wasn’t ready again, but by the end they all took their places on the Enterprise. Again.

    My main issue with QOS is that they didn’t really have a strong story with Bond that needed telling. It’s sort of about revenge and how it’s not worth it, and about how M comes to trust him, but that doesn’t take up much of the film.

    I thought telling the story of Bond keeping going and his focus on the job dispite everything - losing his love, losing M's trust, even beeing blamed for the death of those he cares about (Mathis, Fields) - is wort telling. He shows more character in this film than in any other.

    I mean, I do like the idea that everyone thinks he's out for revenge and has gone rogue when in fact he's doing neither of those things; but even the way you put it here: that he's 'keeping going', isn't massively compelling. He just keeps going rather than really anything happening to him. It's more of an epilogue to the previous film, with him reflecting on the events of it, than a sequel to it. Camille probably has a more compelling story arc in it.
    007HallY wrote: »
    Isn't the ending to the Bourne Supremacy Bourne listening into his superior's phone call with him through a window or something? Then Moby plays and Matt Damon makes a serious face as he walks off into a street with a backpack. I could be wrong. Doesn't seem like a rip off even if some similar sentiments are there.

    That is the very end, yeah; but we're thinking of the scene preceding that, where Bourne surprises a woman coming home to her rather modest flat in a brutalist, snowy Russian tower block, and instead of doing anything violent with the gun he brandishes as she first fears, breaks to her some shocking news which recontextualises her relationship with a loved one, and then leaves, and the scene ends as we watch him walking into the snow.
    Obviously the story isn't the same so they're not saying the same things, but the scenes are easy to compare to each other and even look very reminiscent of each other. I get the feeling they set the Quantum one at night because they were trying to make it different to the Bourne one.

    And in terms of doing a great sequel to a great spy movie and actually extending and adding to the story of the first, Bourne Supremacy does it so much better than QoS for my money.
  • edited September 22 Posts: 6,015
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Isn't the ending to the Bourne Supremacy Bourne listening into his superior's phone call with him through a window or something? Then Moby plays and Matt Damon makes a serious face as he walks off into a street with a backpack. I could be wrong. Doesn't seem like a rip off even if some similar sentiments are there.

    That is the very end, yeah; but we're thinking of the scene preceding that, where Bourne surprises a woman coming home to her rather modest flat in a brutalist, snowy Russian tower block, and instead of doing anything violent with the gun he brandishes as she first fears, breaks to her some shocking news which recontextualises her relationship with a loved one, and then leaves, and the scene ends as we watch him walking into the snow.
    Obviously the story isn't the same so they're not saying the same things, but the scenes are easy to compare to each other and even look very reminiscent of each other. I get the feeling they set the Quantum one at night because they were trying to make it different to the Bourne one.

    And in terms of doing a great sequel to a great spy movie and actually extending and adding to the story of the first, Bourne Supremacy does it so much better than QoS for my money.

    Honestly, I'd need to watch both films again. I can acknowledge there's a lot of Bourne in QOS though. For what it's worth I found the Borune sequels a but underwhelming when I watched them, but maybe they're due for a revisit. The fight scenes I found really off putting (very bizarre with the heavily choreographed fighting and 'handheld' camera stuff and elaborate sound effects. QOS has that issue too but not quite as bad. Matt Damon really isn't a convincing fighter or tough leading man either).
Sign In or Register to comment.