When did Gardner jump the shark?

echoecho 007 in New York
in Literary 007 Posts: 6,784
For me, it was when he started choosing boring locations, especially American locations that did not feel exotic at all. Didn't he go to South Carolina in one? For the love of god, why? He was a writer; he could have chosen the most far-flung and exciting locations possible without regard to budget.

Comments

  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    edited June 7 Posts: 709
    Which is the one where Bond was fighting a nazi called Tarn and plucking a grusse called Flicka?

    I read it many times as a younger and now bitterly reproach myself doing so.

    It was awful.
  • edited June 7 Posts: 418
    Well firstly, I don't think the locations were the limiting factor in making the novels bad. Rather, I think the issue was that Bond became less Bond, the plots became more ridiculous and tropes/crutches like the double agent become more and more pronounced.

    Secondly, I think writers do have write about locations that they know and have seen and all the rest. Pre-google maps/earth this would have had to be through tour books but for a character like Bond who is so particular about what he does and consumes, a tour book might not have been enough for things like how the restaurants are or the quality of hotels and the rest. A lot of authors don't even see Google Earth as enough! Gardner, living in the US for a long period, must have just travelled short distances considering the turnaround time on his novels.

    Thirdly, Bond still goes to pretty interesting/new locales in the back half of the Gardener catalogue; San Francisco and Victoria BC (Brokenclaw), Russia (Barbarossa), Puerto Rico (Seafire), as well as the standard European locales like Venice, Berlin, Paris and Zurich.
    Which is the one where Bond was fighting a nazi called Tarn and plucking a grusse called Flicka?

    I read it many times as a younger and now bitterly reproach myself doing so.

    It was awful.

    That's Seafire. Probably sits near the bottom of all continuation novels
  • Posts: 889
    I think the vanilla icecream complot (added to Leiter's daughter) in the second novel was already a big jump, no ?...
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited June 7 Posts: 6,784
    Well firstly, I don't think the locations were the limiting factor in making the novels bad. Rather, I think the issue was that Bond became less Bond, the plots became more ridiculous and tropes/crutches like the double agent become more and more pronounced.

    Secondly, I think writers do have write about locations that they know and have seen and all the rest. Pre-google maps/earth this would have had to be through tour books but for a character like Bond who is so particular about what he does and consumes, a tour book might not have been enough for things like how the restaurants are or the quality of hotels and the rest. A lot of authors don't even see Google Earth as enough! Gardner, living in the US for a long period, must have just travelled short distances considering the turnaround time on his novels.

    Thirdly, Bond still goes to pretty interesting/new locales in the back half of the Gardener catalogue; San Francisco and Victoria BC (Brokenclaw), Russia (Barbarossa), Puerto Rico (Seafire), as well as the standard European locales like Venice, Berlin, Paris and Zurich.

    It's interesting because as an teenage reader I'd literally take any of those European destinations over anywhere in the Americas. Bond works best for me when he's in Europe, preferably with Cold War echoes.
    I think the vanilla icecream complot (added to Leiter's daughter) in the second novel was already a big jump, no ?...

    This is a good point. I haven't read Boysie Oakes or seen the Jill St. John movie but they were essentially hiring a Bond parody writer, no? So it's kind of unsurprising that, after the careful/Glidrose-overseen Licence Renewed, Gardner would pull the series in his own stylistic direction, that is, toward parody. I don't mind For Special Services because it's kind of a bonkers DAF-ish plot. It has an energy that the latter half of his novels lacked for me.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 709
    The poisoned ice-cream plot is intriguing.

    Wonder if Bibi Dahl ever got a scoop
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,900
    In Gardner's defense he was cranking out one book a year. I remember as a teen a venture to the book store was always a fun treat would I find a new James Bond book on the shelf?

    I am not sure if IFP was the one pushing the output or whether Gardner pushed back on the quantity being asked of him. I understand that Fleming was also doing one a year but as the creator of the character I think it was a trifle easier.

    I enjoy the Gardner books. They are not always well done but they do entertain to some degree.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 5,064
    thedove wrote: »
    In Gardner's defense he was cranking out one book a year. I remember as a teen a venture to the book store was always a fun treat would I find a new James Bond book on the shelf?

    I am not sure if IFP was the one pushing the output or whether Gardner pushed back on the quantity being asked of him. I understand that Fleming was also doing one a year but as the creator of the character I think it was a trifle easier.

    I enjoy the Gardner books. They are not always well done but they do entertain to some degree.

    It sounds like it was a mix of both Gardener and IFP wanting to just keep the books coming. This is according to Gardener's son Simon in Keeping 007 Alive by Mark Edlitz. He wanted to beat Fleming's record and he did.

    As for him jumping the shark, I'd say that for FSS is when he arguably did. It's still enjoyable, but he did make some jokes about the legacies of some Fleming characters. Some of his plots make the sillier Moore and Brosnan movies look as dark and serious as a Dalton or Craig movie.
  • ArapahoeBondFanArapahoeBondFan Colorado
    Posts: 126
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    In Gardner's defense he was cranking out one book a year. I remember as a teen a venture to the book store was always a fun treat would I find a new James Bond book on the shelf?

    I am not sure if IFP was the one pushing the output or whether Gardner pushed back on the quantity being asked of him. I understand that Fleming was also doing one a year but as the creator of the character I think it was a trifle easier.

    I enjoy the Gardner books. They are not always well done but they do entertain to some degree.

    It sounds like it was a mix of both Gardener and IFP wanting to just keep the books coming. This is according to Gardener's son Simon in Keeping 007 Alive by Mark Edlitz. He wanted to beat Fleming's record and he did.

    As for him jumping the shark, I'd say that for FSS is when he arguably did. It's still enjoyable, but he did make some jokes about the legacies of some Fleming characters. Some of his plots make the sillier Moore and Brosnan movies look as dark and serious as a Dalton or Craig movie.

    I agree. When I saw Cedar Leiter, I thought, "oh give me a break." Bedding his best friend's daughter.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,675
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    In Gardner's defense he was cranking out one book a year. I remember as a teen a venture to the book store was always a fun treat would I find a new James Bond book on the shelf?

    I am not sure if IFP was the one pushing the output or whether Gardner pushed back on the quantity being asked of him. I understand that Fleming was also doing one a year but as the creator of the character I think it was a trifle easier.

    I enjoy the Gardner books. They are not always well done but they do entertain to some degree.

    It sounds like it was a mix of both Gardener and IFP wanting to just keep the books coming. This is according to Gardener's son Simon in Keeping 007 Alive by Mark Edlitz. He wanted to beat Fleming's record and he did.

    As for him jumping the shark, I'd say that for FSS is when he arguably did. It's still enjoyable, but he did make some jokes about the legacies of some Fleming characters. Some of his plots make the sillier Moore and Brosnan movies look as dark and serious as a Dalton or Craig movie.

    I agree. When I saw Cedar Leiter, I thought, "oh give me a break." Bedding his best friend's daughter.

    Bedding his best friends daughter...what the hell was going through Gardner's head on that one. And if I were Felix, James Bond's death would have come long before NTTD rolled around...
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 709
    peter wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    In Gardner's defense he was cranking out one book a year. I remember as a teen a venture to the book store was always a fun treat would I find a new James Bond book on the shelf?

    I am not sure if IFP was the one pushing the output or whether Gardner pushed back on the quantity being asked of him. I understand that Fleming was also doing one a year but as the creator of the character I think it was a trifle easier.

    I enjoy the Gardner books. They are not always well done but they do entertain to some degree.

    It sounds like it was a mix of both Gardener and IFP wanting to just keep the books coming. This is according to Gardener's son Simon in Keeping 007 Alive by Mark Edlitz. He wanted to beat Fleming's record and he did.

    As for him jumping the shark, I'd say that for FSS is when he arguably did. It's still enjoyable, but he did make some jokes about the legacies of some Fleming characters. Some of his plots make the sillier Moore and Brosnan movies look as dark and serious as a Dalton or Craig movie.

    I agree. When I saw Cedar Leiter, I thought, "oh give me a break." Bedding his best friend's daughter.

    Bedding his best friends daughter...what the hell was going through Gardner's head on that one. And if I were Felix, James Bond's death would have come long before NTTD rolled around...

    I would dearly love to read such a chapter.
  • Bond doesn't actually bed Leiter's daughter. He actually resists her advance for the entirety of the story, despite the cover of being a couple.

    The weird part of that story is the last chapter, where Leiter sends him a letter saying "The Gift of a Daughter" or something like that, basically giving Bond permission to do what he likes. Bond still turns down the offer, however.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,675
    Bond doesn't actually bed Leiter's daughter. He actually resists her advance for the entirety of the story, despite the cover of being a couple.

    The weird part of that story is the last chapter, where Leiter sends him a letter saying "The Gift of a Daughter" or something like that, basically giving Bond permission to do what he likes. Bond still turns down the offer, however.

    Been ages since I read it. I thought at the end, it’s heavily implied they got together? Apologies if I’m misremembering (saying that, I do remember lots of flirting, which is enough to at least lay a beating on Bond?).
  • Here's the ending:
    Bond closed the box, tearing open the other envelope. A single card,
    handwritten with great care. It read: To James Bond: The Gift of a Daughter
    – or whatever you want her to be.
    It was signed, Felix Leiter, and, as Bond read it, he knew that the planned
    holiday with Cedar was going to be laughter, fun, and a purely platonic
    relationship right down the line.
    Waiting for Bond upstairs, Cedar had other ideas, and they were both
    stubborn as mules.
    In his cab heading for the airport, Felix Leiter chuckled to himself

    Through the chapter preceding they are sharing a hotel room and arguing over whether they should or not. Bond threatens to spank her, which I think was probably a bit outdated for the 80s in a non-sexual sense, but beyond that I remember that Bond was interested in Blofeld's daughter for the majority of the story.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited June 19 Posts: 9,675
    Here's the ending:
    Bond closed the box, tearing open the other envelope. A single card,
    handwritten with great care. It read: To James Bond: The Gift of a Daughter
    – or whatever you want her to be.
    It was signed, Felix Leiter, and, as Bond read it, he knew that the planned
    holiday with Cedar was going to be laughter, fun, and a purely platonic
    relationship right down the line.
    Waiting for Bond upstairs, Cedar had other ideas, and they were both
    stubborn as mules.
    In his cab heading for the airport, Felix Leiter chuckled to himself

    Through the chapter preceding they are sharing a hotel room and arguing over whether they should or not. Bond threatens to spank her, which I think was probably a bit outdated for the 80s in a non-sexual sense, but beyond that I remember that Bond was interested in Blofeld's daughter for the majority of the story.

    This is a little ambiguous with it left as, they’re both as stubborn as mules.

    But even worse is Felix is kind of pimping-out his daughter to his friend.

    Man, I just cleaned my eyeballs, and tried pouring bleach into my ears, hoping it’d reach my brain, 😂…

    When I read that book as a teenager, I thought the Blofeld daughter twist was neat, but after reading that excerpt above, I’ll stick with Ice-Breaker as my favourite Gardner book (and think it could make for a pretty awesome flick).
  • Yes it is ambiguous but it's left up to Bond. Cedar can be as stubborn as she wants but as if Bond is as stubborn, nothing would happen, if you get what I mean. For nothing to happen, no one has to concede but for something to happen Bond has to concede.

    Anyway, I agree about Felix. He comes off the worst of the three in this novel and I believe that was his only appearance in Gardner's work (apart from Licence to Kill).

    It is a shame because FSS does hold up as a relatively good, if weird, novel. The henchman is good, the setting bizarre and the whole thing is genuinely intriguing.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited June 19 Posts: 6,784
    peter wrote: »
    Here's the ending:
    Bond closed the box, tearing open the other envelope. A single card,
    handwritten with great care. It read: To James Bond: The Gift of a Daughter
    – or whatever you want her to be.
    It was signed, Felix Leiter, and, as Bond read it, he knew that the planned
    holiday with Cedar was going to be laughter, fun, and a purely platonic
    relationship right down the line.
    Waiting for Bond upstairs, Cedar had other ideas, and they were both
    stubborn as mules.
    In his cab heading for the airport, Felix Leiter chuckled to himself

    Through the chapter preceding they are sharing a hotel room and arguing over whether they should or not. Bond threatens to spank her, which I think was probably a bit outdated for the 80s in a non-sexual sense, but beyond that I remember that Bond was interested in Blofeld's daughter for the majority of the story.

    This is a little ambiguous with it left as, they’re both as stubborn as mules.

    But even worse is Felix is kind of pimping-out his daughter to his friend.

    Man, I just cleaned my eyeballs, and tried pouring bleach into my ears, hoping it’d reach my brain, 😂…

    When I read that book as a teenager, I thought the Blofeld daughter twist was neat, but after reading that excerpt above, I’ll stick with Ice-Breaker as my favourite Gardner book (and think it could make for a pretty awesome flick).

    I can't recall if it was Cedar or Q'ute who Bond slept with...maybe just the latter? Either way, it gives ick.

    I do think Icebreaker is one of the best ones (especially the title), along with the one where they have a bounty on Bond's head. Something different, with Bond on the defensive.
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