The theories of Bond films! What is your theory on Henderson, Bond and the martini?

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  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 326
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Kristatos and Colombo must be older too if they fought in World War II.

    They could have fought fairly young. I always understood that they played characters older than they were.

    Colombo uses hair dye, the fop.
  • Posts: 15,658
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Well, the age of the actress isn't the age of the character. It's implied that Bibi is a teenager, most definitely underage. And Bond, for all his flaws, refused his advances.

    I'd like to think that Colombo is trying to move into the legitimate world. For all we know he keeps smuggling so he doesn't have to pay taxes. And keeps soldiers only because he needs to protect himself from the likes of Kristatos.

    I'd didn't say Melina was 'underage', Bibi either.

    The problem is she is visibly in her early twenties, living a sheltered life and recently experienced a serious trauma. Bond is clearly twice her age. For a film trying desperately to be seen as 'grown up', it is a serious mis-step.

    Moore told the producers FYEO would be final film because Carole Bouquet was younger than his adult daughter. It inspired the casting of Maud Adams, an older actor, in the next film.

    Yes I'm aware of the age difference. Be that as it may, it's implied that the character of Bibi is considerably younger than Melina. Whether or not it's believable is a different topic altogether.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,811
    How does British Intelligence never figure out Kristatos in the 40 years since the war? Never a hint or even a whiff that he wasn't who he claimed to be? I had never given it much thought till recently and I was curious how that might be.

    Seems a bit of a reach to me now that I have given it some thought.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 326
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Well, the age of the actress isn't the age of the character. It's implied that Bibi is a teenager, most definitely underage. And Bond, for all his flaws, refused his advances.

    I'd like to think that Colombo is trying to move into the legitimate world. For all we know he keeps smuggling so he doesn't have to pay taxes. And keeps soldiers only because he needs to protect himself from the likes of Kristatos.

    I'd didn't say Melina was 'underage', Bibi either.

    The problem is she is visibly in her early twenties, living a sheltered life and recently experienced a serious trauma. Bond is clearly twice her age. For a film trying desperately to be seen as 'grown up', it is a serious mis-step.

    Moore told the producers FYEO would be final film because Carole Bouquet was younger than his adult daughter. It inspired the casting of Maud Adams, an older actor, in the next film.

    Yes I'm aware of the age difference. Be that as it may, it's implied that the character of Bibi is considerably younger than Melina. Whether or not it's believable is a different topic altogether.

    Implied surely, but crucially, is not visible. They look the same age. In fact, Holly Lyn Johnson is older than Carole Bouquet.

    Another problem is the dubbing. Melina doesn't get to speak for herself, even, whereas Bibi's squeak is given carte blanche.

  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 326
    thedove wrote: »
    How does British Intelligence never figure out Kristatos in the 40 years since the war? Never a hint or even a whiff that he wasn't who he claimed to be? I had never given it much thought till recently and I was curious how that might be.

    Seems a bit of a reach to me now that I have given it some thought.

    Because he's in a position of authority and therefore capable of coercing the facts.

    Colombo turning to crime is another reason. It vindicates Kristatos further. Could an origins tale smooth it all out?

    (Dear Amazon: No)

  • Posts: 15,658
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Well, the age of the actress isn't the age of the character. It's implied that Bibi is a teenager, most definitely underage. And Bond, for all his flaws, refused his advances.

    I'd like to think that Colombo is trying to move into the legitimate world. For all we know he keeps smuggling so he doesn't have to pay taxes. And keeps soldiers only because he needs to protect himself from the likes of Kristatos.

    I'd didn't say Melina was 'underage', Bibi either.

    The problem is she is visibly in her early twenties, living a sheltered life and recently experienced a serious trauma. Bond is clearly twice her age. For a film trying desperately to be seen as 'grown up', it is a serious mis-step.

    Moore told the producers FYEO would be final film because Carole Bouquet was younger than his adult daughter. It inspired the casting of Maud Adams, an older actor, in the next film.

    Yes I'm aware of the age difference. Be that as it may, it's implied that the character of Bibi is considerably younger than Melina. Whether or not it's believable is a different topic altogether.

    Implied surely, but crucially, is not visible. They look the same age. In fact, Holly Lyn Johnson is older than Carole Bouquet.

    Another problem is the dubbing. Melina doesn't get to speak for herself, even, whereas Bibi's squeak is given carte blanche.

    Well, I disagree: I think Bibi looks like a teenager.
  • Posts: 1,968
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Well, the age of the actress isn't the age of the character. It's implied that Bibi is a teenager, most definitely underage. And Bond, for all his flaws, refused his advances.

    I'd like to think that Colombo is trying to move into the legitimate world. For all we know he keeps smuggling so he doesn't have to pay taxes. And keeps soldiers only because he needs to protect himself from the likes of Kristatos.

    I'd didn't say Melina was 'underage', Bibi either.

    The problem is she is visibly in her early twenties, living a sheltered life and recently experienced a serious trauma. Bond is clearly twice her age. For a film trying desperately to be seen as 'grown up', it is a serious mis-step.

    Moore told the producers FYEO would be final film because Carole Bouquet was younger than his adult daughter. It inspired the casting of Maud Adams, an older actor, in the next film.

    Yes I'm aware of the age difference. Be that as it may, it's implied that the character of Bibi is considerably younger than Melina. Whether or not it's believable is a different topic altogether.

    Implied surely, but crucially, is not visible. They look the same age. In fact, Holly Lyn Johnson is older than Carole Bouquet.

    Another problem is the dubbing. Melina doesn't get to speak for herself, even, whereas Bibi's squeak is given carte blanche.

    Well, I disagree: I think Bibi looks like a teenager.

    And she acts like a teenager.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited May 17 Posts: 9,596
    @AnotherZorinStooge ...Moore said Tanya Roberts was younger than his daughter; he didnt say that about Bouquet.

    Edit: from an MI6 article:

    Famously, Roger Moore said he decided to end his run as James Bond when he realized Tanya Roberts' mother was younger than he was.
  • Posts: 15,658
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Well, the age of the actress isn't the age of the character. It's implied that Bibi is a teenager, most definitely underage. And Bond, for all his flaws, refused his advances.

    I'd like to think that Colombo is trying to move into the legitimate world. For all we know he keeps smuggling so he doesn't have to pay taxes. And keeps soldiers only because he needs to protect himself from the likes of Kristatos.

    I'd didn't say Melina was 'underage', Bibi either.

    The problem is she is visibly in her early twenties, living a sheltered life and recently experienced a serious trauma. Bond is clearly twice her age. For a film trying desperately to be seen as 'grown up', it is a serious mis-step.

    Moore told the producers FYEO would be final film because Carole Bouquet was younger than his adult daughter. It inspired the casting of Maud Adams, an older actor, in the next film.

    Yes I'm aware of the age difference. Be that as it may, it's implied that the character of Bibi is considerably younger than Melina. Whether or not it's believable is a different topic altogether.

    Implied surely, but crucially, is not visible. They look the same age. In fact, Holly Lyn Johnson is older than Carole Bouquet.

    Another problem is the dubbing. Melina doesn't get to speak for herself, even, whereas Bibi's squeak is given carte blanche.

    Well, I disagree: I think Bibi looks like a teenager.

    And she acts like a teenager.

    That too.
    peter wrote: »
    @AnotherZorinStooge ...Moore said Tanya Roberts was younger than his daughter; he didnt say that about Bouquet.

    Edit: from an MI6 article:

    Famously, Roger Moore said he decided to end his run as James Bond when he realized Tanya Roberts' mother was younger than he was.

    Yeah, I thought that's what really convinced him to stop being Bond.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 326
    peter wrote: »
    @AnotherZorinStooge ...Moore said Tanya Roberts was younger than his daughter; he didnt say that about Bouquet.

    Edit: from an MI6 article:

    Famously, Roger Moore said he decided to end his run as James Bond when he realized Tanya Roberts' mother was younger than he was.

    I'll concede the point, Peter. I read somewhere Moore said this about Bouquet but for the life of me cannot remember where and now cannot be bothered finding it. You're probably right, anyway.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Well, the age of the actress isn't the age of the character. It's implied that Bibi is a teenager, most definitely underage. And Bond, for all his flaws, refused his advances.

    I'd like to think that Colombo is trying to move into the legitimate world. For all we know he keeps smuggling so he doesn't have to pay taxes. And keeps soldiers only because he needs to protect himself from the likes of Kristatos.

    I'd didn't say Melina was 'underage', Bibi either.

    The problem is she is visibly in her early twenties, living a sheltered life and recently experienced a serious trauma. Bond is clearly twice her age. For a film trying desperately to be seen as 'grown up', it is a serious mis-step.

    Moore told the producers FYEO would be final film because Carole Bouquet was younger than his adult daughter. It inspired the casting of Maud Adams, an older actor, in the next film.

    Yes I'm aware of the age difference. Be that as it may, it's implied that the character of Bibi is considerably younger than Melina. Whether or not it's believable is a different topic altogether.

    Implied surely, but crucially, is not visible. They look the same age. In fact, Holly Lyn Johnson is older than Carole Bouquet.

    Another problem is the dubbing. Melina doesn't get to speak for herself, even, whereas Bibi's squeak is given carte blanche.

    Well, I disagree: I think Bibi looks like a teenager.

    She is early twenties in my eye, chief, with the teenager persona enhanced via accent. But it's one of those.
  • Posts: 15,658
    peter wrote: »
    @AnotherZorinStooge ...Moore said Tanya Roberts was younger than his daughter; he didnt say that about Bouquet.

    Edit: from an MI6 article:

    Famously, Roger Moore said he decided to end his run as James Bond when he realized Tanya Roberts' mother was younger than he was.

    I'll concede the point, Peter. I read somewhere Moore said this about Bouquet but for the life of me cannot remember where and now cannot be bothered finding it. You're probably right, anyway.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Well, the age of the actress isn't the age of the character. It's implied that Bibi is a teenager, most definitely underage. And Bond, for all his flaws, refused his advances.

    I'd like to think that Colombo is trying to move into the legitimate world. For all we know he keeps smuggling so he doesn't have to pay taxes. And keeps soldiers only because he needs to protect himself from the likes of Kristatos.

    I'd didn't say Melina was 'underage', Bibi either.

    The problem is she is visibly in her early twenties, living a sheltered life and recently experienced a serious trauma. Bond is clearly twice her age. For a film trying desperately to be seen as 'grown up', it is a serious mis-step.

    Moore told the producers FYEO would be final film because Carole Bouquet was younger than his adult daughter. It inspired the casting of Maud Adams, an older actor, in the next film.

    Yes I'm aware of the age difference. Be that as it may, it's implied that the character of Bibi is considerably younger than Melina. Whether or not it's believable is a different topic altogether.

    Implied surely, but crucially, is not visible. They look the same age. In fact, Holly Lyn Johnson is older than Carole Bouquet.

    Another problem is the dubbing. Melina doesn't get to speak for herself, even, whereas Bibi's squeak is given carte blanche.

    Well, I disagree: I think Bibi looks like a teenager.

    She is early twenties in my eye, chief, with the teenager persona enhanced via accent. But it's one of those.

    Different perceptions. But in any case, she was written as a teenager. It's quite telling that Bond refuses her advances.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 326
    Ludovico wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    @AnotherZorinStooge ...Moore said Tanya Roberts was younger than his daughter; he didnt say that about Bouquet.

    Edit: from an MI6 article:

    Famously, Roger Moore said he decided to end his run as James Bond when he realized Tanya Roberts' mother was younger than he was.

    I'll concede the point, Peter. I read somewhere Moore said this about Bouquet but for the life of me cannot remember where and now cannot be bothered finding it. You're probably right, anyway.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Well, the age of the actress isn't the age of the character. It's implied that Bibi is a teenager, most definitely underage. And Bond, for all his flaws, refused his advances.

    I'd like to think that Colombo is trying to move into the legitimate world. For all we know he keeps smuggling so he doesn't have to pay taxes. And keeps soldiers only because he needs to protect himself from the likes of Kristatos.

    I'd didn't say Melina was 'underage', Bibi either.

    The problem is she is visibly in her early twenties, living a sheltered life and recently experienced a serious trauma. Bond is clearly twice her age. For a film trying desperately to be seen as 'grown up', it is a serious mis-step.

    Moore told the producers FYEO would be final film because Carole Bouquet was younger than his adult daughter. It inspired the casting of Maud Adams, an older actor, in the next film.

    Yes I'm aware of the age difference. Be that as it may, it's implied that the character of Bibi is considerably younger than Melina. Whether or not it's believable is a different topic altogether.

    Implied surely, but crucially, is not visible. They look the same age. In fact, Holly Lyn Johnson is older than Carole Bouquet.

    Another problem is the dubbing. Melina doesn't get to speak for herself, even, whereas Bibi's squeak is given carte blanche.

    Well, I disagree: I think Bibi looks like a teenager.

    She is early twenties in my eye, chief, with the teenager persona enhanced via accent. But it's one of those.

    Different perceptions. But in any case, she was written as a teenager. It's quite telling that Bond refuses her advances.

    May have been better if her age was disclosed.
  • Posts: 1,961
    thedove wrote: »
    Lets shoot forward to another film and see what your thoughts are on this situation.

    Columbo is known as the Dove in the Greek underworld. A sick joke. Kristatos uses this to throw Bond off the trail. Columbo seems to be a decent guy when Bond meets him. So decent that Bond almost trusts him immediately.

    Kristatos is the one involved in smuggling, in nefarious schemes with the Russians and working against England and the free world.

    What is your theory on Columbo and Kristatos?

    Do you think that Columbo is more vicious and evil than his dealings with Bond suggest? If so why the Dove symbol? How did Kristatos manage to fool the British for 30 plus years from World War II to the early eighties?

    What is your theory behind Columbo and Kristatos?

    As far as Kristatos fooling the British for 30-plus years, consider how they whiffed on making Alec Trevelyan a 00 agent and Frederick Grey's constant doubting, like playing cards with Drax makes him above suspicion. Then there's that whole nanobot thing.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 18,052
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Kristatos and Colombo must be older too if they fought in World War II.

    They could have fought fairly young. I always understood that they played characters older than they were.

    Yeah they’re both greyed up a bit aren’t they?
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,811
    Good stuff folks, you have all provided some good food for thought. This was a new thing that popped into my head and you have all contributed some great theories to the history of the characters.

    On to a small thing that has always bothered me. A small scene in YOLT where Bond meets Henderson. They seem to hit it off, though I have always sensed a weird tension during the scene and nothing to do with the impending death of Henderson.

    As Henderson prepares a martini for Bond he hands it to him and says "stirred not shaken, that was right?" To which Bond replies "Perfect. Cheers".

    First question for the theory is how does Henderson know how Bond likes his martini and how did he get it wrong?

    Second question why does Bond let this mistake pass? Is he being a charming guest and not wishing to insult his host? Or is it like Craig's Bond so eloquently expressed when given a choice of shaken or stirred. "Does it look like I give a damn?"

    Does Bond not really care about how the martini is prepared?

    At one time I thought it was a mistake left in the film through an oversight. Now I no longer subscribe to that theory.

    What is your theory on Henderson and Bond and the martini scene?


  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,244
    Henderson was MI6, and Bond's penchant for vodka martini was probably hard to overlook in the agency's customary Christmas get-together. However, Henderson got the recipe mixed up, but Bond was too polite to mention this. Or too stuck-up to admit that a stirred martini tastes better anyway.
  • Posts: 1,968
    It's all a joke from Tiger Tanaka. He told Henderson about Bond's tastes.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 326
    Bond hired the goon to kill Henderson then killed the goon for a laugh. Dwayne Johnson's grandad was just randomly parked outside...

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 18,052
    I always took it as a joke: he's got it wrong and Bond is being polite. Sean would have given us a flash of subtle disappointment in an earlier film but he wasn't really bothering in YOLT.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 326
    Couldn't be arsed making a fuss.

    It's a tired Bond
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited 3:44am Posts: 14,415
    Agree with the idea that Henderson was enthusiastic or misinformed or innocently manipulated but mistaken with the stirred not shaken notion. Accepting bad advice about bruising alcohol and other unnecessary minutia. And Bond let it slide, in good spirit to his contact.

    In any event, it was foreshadowing. The death of him.

    SPECTRE would not so quickly forget and move on. They would seek to torment 007 with not only Ernst Stavro Blofeld himself taking on the likeness of Henderson in DAF. But also creating multiple replicas of Blofeld Henderson as decoys and bait and distraction and ego massaging.

    All to no end. Bond didn't notice. No connection made. Fail.

    Plus Henderson's only good for whiskey.


    HENDERSON-750ML-ALL_FLAVORS.png

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,713
    Couldn't be arsed making a fuss.

    It's a tired Bond

    But is it a tired Henderson?
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 326
    echo wrote: »
    Couldn't be arsed making a fuss.

    It's a tired Bond

    But is it a tired Henderson?

    No way!

    Charles Gray was such a brilliant actor.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,244
    I liked Gray better as The Narrator in The Rocky Horror Picture Show than in both incarnations of his Bond movie roles. Then again, he wouldn't have been in TRHPS without the Bonds.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,401
    I always loved Gray as the narrator at the pyramids in TSWLM.
    Such a perfect voice for it.
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