Which Bond novel are you currently reading?

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  • Got the itch to reread some Fleming (still haven’t made my way to any of the continuation books — is Colonel Sun or Trigger Morris the advised path forward on that front?). Casino Royale was just a gripping as the first time. I love how contained and to the point it is, and it bristles with noirish atmosphere. I was worried I might find the final third a bit dull this time around but I actually found it quite moving.

    Halfway through LALD now, my third time with this one. I really enjoy how after the confines of CR Fleming let loose with a really expansive, swashbuckling adventure story. Up until Leiter gets chowed on a lot of the atmosphere in NY and the train is quite cozy and is very enjoyable to revisit, and then the rest of the book really turns the thumbscrews on you with some of Fleming’s most brutal action-suspense sequences. I always feel like Dr. No is something of a sister novel to LALD as they’re both probably the pulpiest Bond material Fleming put out.
  • AnotherZorinStoogeAnotherZorinStooge Bramhall (Irish)
    Posts: 299
    Just fonished reading colonel sun

    Enjoyable romp
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,492
    I just finished MR.

    Excellent read with some very tense chapters as well as an interesting end to the (pseudo)-romance with Gala in the very last chapter. I also loved to get to know M better.

    I do miss that exotic feeling though, which it can't really have by default.

    All in all, definitely very good, even though I don't think it'll ever be one of my very favourites.
  • edited May 6 Posts: 1,139
    Got the itch to reread some Fleming (still haven’t made my way to any of the continuation books — is Colonel Sun or Trigger Morris the advised path forward on that front?).

    I think most people would say Colonel Sun, it's traditionally the 'go-to' book after Golden Gun. Though, if I'm honest, I think the continuation novel that's best read after Golden Gun is With A Mind to Kill, Horowitz's last Bond. I'd even go so far as to say that it improves TMWTGG, by explaining a lot of what GG didn't cover, regarding Bond's brain-washing. With a Mind to Kill is more of a follow up to GG than Colonel Sun, as far as I can remember. But you won't go wrong with either.

    Trigger Mortis was written to take place after Goldfinger in the Fleming chronology, (Bond is living with Pussy Galore in his London flat at the start of the book. And all the Fleming habits are there in that early chapter, down to the breakfast eggs and the correct time for the hot/cold shower. It really is a great tribute to the real world of James Bond). One day, I hope to get Horowitz to sign my Waterstones special edition.

    For my money, Horowitz and Amis are the authors who sit most comfortably alongside the Fleming books. They both are able to safely navigate the world of Bond that Fleming created.
  • Got the itch to reread some Fleming (still haven’t made my way to any of the continuation books — is Colonel Sun or Trigger Morris the advised path forward on that front?).

    I think most people would say Colonel Sun, it's traditionally the 'go-to' book after Golden Gun. Though, if I'm honest, I think the continuation novel that's best read after Golden Gun is With A Mind to Kill, Horowitz's last Bond. I'd even go so far as to say that it improves TMWTGG, by explaining a lot of what GG didn't cover, regarding Bond's brain-washing. With a Mind to Kill is more of a follow up to GG than Colonel Sun, as far as I can remember. But you won't go wrong with either.

    Trigger Mortis was written to take place after Goldfinger in the Fleming chronology, (Bond is living with Pussy Galore in his London flat at the start of the book. And all the Fleming habits are there in that early chapter, down to the breakfast eggs and the correct time for the hot/cold shower. It really is a great tribute to the real world of James Bond). One day, I hope to get Horowitz to sign my Waterstones special edition.

    For my money, Horowitz and Amis are the authors who sit most comfortably alongside the Fleming books. They both are able to safely navigate the world of Bond that Fleming created.

    Sounds like I can’t go wrong with either but you’ve piqued my interest in the Horowitz books.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,402
    Got the itch to reread some Fleming (still haven’t made my way to any of the continuation books — is Colonel Sun or Trigger Morris the advised path forward on that front?).

    I think most people would say Colonel Sun, it's traditionally the 'go-to' book after Golden Gun. Though, if I'm honest, I think the continuation novel that's best read after Golden Gun is With A Mind to Kill, Horowitz's last Bond. I'd even go so far as to say that it improves TMWTGG, by explaining a lot of what GG didn't cover, regarding Bond's brain-washing. With a Mind to Kill is more of a follow up to GG than Colonel Sun, as far as I can remember. But you won't go wrong with either.

    Trigger Mortis was written to take place after Goldfinger in the Fleming chronology, (Bond is living with Pussy Galore in his London flat at the start of the book. And all the Fleming habits are there in that early chapter, down to the breakfast eggs and the correct time for the hot/cold shower. It really is a great tribute to the real world of James Bond). One day, I hope to get Horowitz to sign my Waterstones special edition.

    For my money, Horowitz and Amis are the authors who sit most comfortably alongside the Fleming books. They both are able to safely navigate the world of Bond that Fleming created.

    Sounds like I can’t go wrong with either but you’ve piqued my interest in the Horowitz books.
    I have to say it didn't cross my mind and reading With A Mind to Kill by Horowitz after The Man With the Golden Gun is an excellent idea. A good novel and very strong payoff.

    And following that with Colonel Sun by Kinsley Amis would also be right on time.


  • edited May 7 Posts: 1,139
    I have to say it didn't cross my mind and reading With A Mind to Kill by Horowitz after The Man With the Golden Gun is an excellent idea. A good novel and very strong payoff.
    And following that with Colonel Sun by Kinsley Amis would also be right on time.

    I started a thread on here about Horowitz's quote that 'literary Bond works best in Fleming's timeline', (https://www.mi6community.com/discussion/21576/a-literary-bond-only-works-in-his-own-timeline) and that's one of the reasons I love the Horowitz trilogy. It completely sits in with, and pays respect to the Fleming books. Obviously, AH has the writing chops to carry it off and not many could. But for my money, it's only the Horowitz and Amis books that sit comfortably alongside Flemings.
    I haven't read Devil May Care for a while, I must say, but I think that's another continuation novel that's placed after Golden Gun. And I think Solo was sixties too. It's been a while since I read them, but I remember Devil May Care working better than Solo for me. But neither really felt like I was smack bang in Fleming's world like Horowitz.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    edited May 8 Posts: 5,014
    Devil May Care I liked, but as I wrote in my review here, it was just basically Bond's greatest member-berry moments book. I wish that the "Writing as Ian Fleming" was never given. It's just weird. I also feel that setting DMC after Colonel Sun would have made more sense. Honoring CS' 40th anniversary would have been nice as well.

    Solo I liked. The villain's plot is depressing and has been overdone, and I think that's one of the turnoffs for people. The approach to Bond himself getting older was where Boyd was most creative, in a good way. It could work to end both CS/DMC and Anthony Horowitz's trilogy.

    As you have said though, Anthony Horowitz and his trilogy truly belong next to Ian Fleming as getting the character. WAMTK does make TMWTGG better. Anthony Horowitz is the real author who could be credited with "Writing as Ian Fleming" over Sebastian Faulks. I once said that his Forever and a Day prequel would be a great start for a new Bond actor. He said thanks, but it was extremely unlikely! Amazon should look at him for ideas, honestly.
  • Posts: 393
    I think Solo really fails for me because in its second-half, Bond doesn't really do anything. After he kills the African warlord, he just travels to America and finds out the realities of the plot without stopping anything. And then, at the end, M is still congratulating and debriefing him for something that happened on the midway point of the book.

    The romance with Bryce Fitzjohn was also another low point. As a character, she seems to perfectly fit the (or at least my) mold of Bond's regular trysts. The problem is twofold. Firstly, Bond's voyeuristic search of her home is bizarre. Breaking in is one thing (and quite odd from her perspective), but watching her get in the bath is surely on a level of lechery that not even the nastiest parody of Connery would touch. Secondly, the ending is overly dramatic. Bond's life in London is largely safe from foreign influence and so I find it hard to believe that he'd need to leave Bryce just to protect her; only in Thunderball is Bond caught up by business in England.
  • Posts: 59
    The Facts of Death.

    The Benson books were among the few I’d never tried, but I recently tracked down his two omnibus collections and I’m now on the second novel.

    I was rather underwhelmed by Zero Minus Ten, but I’m enjoying this one a bit more. It’s still naff compared to Fleming, but I’m liking it more than the Gardner books I’ve read.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 5,014
    For Special Services (1982).

    Bond often has a sophomore slump doesn't he? A few expectations, of course. It felt like Gardner was writing by looking at the Bond formula checklist. Legacy seems to be the theme of the novel. I enjoyed it, but I felt it could have experimented more. I still need time to think about the book and my feelings.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,688
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    For Special Services (1982).

    Bond often has a sophomore slump doesn't he? A few expectations, of course. It felt like Gardner was writing by looking at the Bond formula checklist. Legacy seems to be the theme of the novel. I enjoyed it, but I felt it could have experimented more. I still need time to think about the book and my feelings.

    I kind of view For Special Services as James Bond: The Next Generation due to the daughters of Felix Leiter and Ernst Stavro Blofeld featuring. Of course Bond himself stays about the same age (or a little older) as he's always been. I actually think it's one of his crazier Bond novels in the fine Boysie Oakes mould. I'm thinking specifically of the drugged ice cream.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited 7:14am Posts: 7,492
    Going to start rereading CR one of these days as I continue revisiting the Fleming Bonds.

    Just wondering though, how worthwhile are the non-Flemings? Because I know myself, a bit of a completist, if I read one I have crossed that border and will need to read them all :))

    Maybe I could treat Colonel Sun or Devil May Care in a NSNA sort of fashion. But something like Benson, reading one means reading them all...

    Do I miss out on vital Bond if I don't bother? Love to get some advice here :)
  • edited 8:21am Posts: 5,213
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Going to start rereading CR one of these days as I continue revisiting the Fleming Bonds.

    Just wondering though, how worthwhile are the non-Flemings? Because I know myself, a bit of a completist, if I read one I have crossed that border and will need to read them all :))

    Maybe I could treat Colonel Sun or Devil May Care in a NSNA sort of fashion. But something like Benson, reading one means reading them all...

    Do I miss out on vital Bond if I don't bother? Love to get some advice here :)

    I wouldn’t say vital. I’ve certainly not read all of them. But some are interesting.

    Maybe give Colonel Sun a go - one of the continuation novels that can be read on its own. CS is enjoyable, even if I don’t rate it as highly as Fleming. Horrowitz’s Forever and a Day is another good one that can be read independently of his others, although I have my issues with it. Same for Carte Blanche if you’re looking for a modern day one off Bond adventure (although again, it’s very flawed).

    I’d avoid Devil May Care to be honest, at least if you’re looking for a legitimately engaging read. If you want a ‘so bad it’s interesting’ experience I’d look at Benson’s Blast From The Past. Same for Higson’s OHiMSS.
  • Posts: 8,160
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Going to start rereading CR one of these days as I continue revisiting the Fleming Bonds.

    Just wondering though, how worthwhile are the non-Flemings? Because I know myself, a bit of a completist, if I read one I have crossed that border and will need to read them all :))

    Maybe I could treat Colonel Sun or Devil May Care in a NSNA sort of fashion. But something like Benson, reading one means reading them all...

    Do I miss out on vital Bond if I don't bother? Love to get some advice here :)

    I gave up after 'Devil May Care'!
    Colonel Sun was the only worthwhile read! Hated the Gardner novels! And I'm just not going to bother with any new ones!
  • edited 12:39pm Posts: 393
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Going to start rereading CR one of these days as I continue revisiting the Fleming Bonds.

    Just wondering though, how worthwhile are the non-Flemings? Because I know myself, a bit of a completist, if I read one I have crossed that border and will need to read them all :))

    Maybe I could treat Colonel Sun or Devil May Care in a NSNA sort of fashion. But something like Benson, reading one means reading them all...

    Do I miss out on vital Bond if I don't bother? Love to get some advice here :)

    I read them all. Honestly the hardest part is getting your hands on all of them; it's a slog.

    Any Bond fand should read Amis' and Wood's works. They fit in with Fleming quite well prosewise and the stories are relatively good.

    The Gardner's are relatively good to begin with, but around Book 7/8 they start become hard to read and blend together in ridiculousness and uniqueness. Beyond that point, Gardner took liberties beyond what was normal: Bond drinks tea and dislikes eggs. There are still high points in the late part of the series (Death is Forever) but books like Never Send Flowers (sorry Dragonpol), Seafire, and Cold tested my patience. The three book axis of Role of Honour, Nobody Lives Forever and No Deals Mr. Bond is a high point.

    Benson's novels read and are plotted exactly like the Brosnan films. The first three are definitely worth a read, and some childish dialogue is worth tolerating for the innovative and geopolitical stories. Zero Minus Ten is a good start; High Time to Kill and Doubleshot are highpoints, but the last two lack the originality of the first 4 and become silly, with classic Fleming characters making dubious returns.

    The celebrity trio of Faulks, Deaver, and Boyd all do an alright job. Faulks really just copy-pasted Fleming tropes and stereotypes into story, but it's entertaining for me (it was my first Bond novel). Deaver writes an interesting modern story, but at times the character doesn't feel like James Bond and constant twists sometimes become annoying rather than suspenseful. Boyd writes a spy thriller but the second half falls off as Bond discovers rather than does. The story has a moral and geopolitical touch to it with the theme of British interference in other countries' affairs for selfish reasons.

    Horowitz, having quasi written young Bond in Alex Rider, drops the entertaining pastiche and writes three serious and good Bond novels. The last two have heavy emotional content for Bond, and they are believable in the context of the Fleming Series.

    Higson and Sherwood write modern, serviceable but ultimately unnoteworthy novels.

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited 1:19pm Posts: 6,703
    ^This is a great summary, thanks.

    As for me, I read all the Gardners when they came out, and I'd say 4-6 are definitely the highlights. 1-3 are not bad. The rest lack energy and are overall meh. I feel like there was a lack of quality control by Glidrose; like you said, the details started to be Gardner and not Fleming. I also grew tired of the double and triple crosses, the offputtingly American and otherwise decidedly unexotic settings (once you go Eurodisney you've crossed the Rubicon), and the attempts to replicate Tracy. After a while I just didn't buy into the emotional journeys Gardner chose for Bond anymore.

    Then I started into Benson but found his style very stilted. (The universal compliment I will pay Gardner is that he is readable.) By this point I was into my 20s and I kind of gave up on the continuation novels and haven't tried one since.

    I did read Colonel Sun when it was finally re-released about 7 or so years ago. I found it passable, but overrated. I've never been able to get through the Wood novelizations.

  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    edited 2:01pm Posts: 4,341
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Going to start rereading CR one of these days as I continue revisiting the Fleming Bonds.

    Just wondering though, how worthwhile are the non-Flemings? Because I know myself, a bit of a completist, if I read one I have crossed that border and will need to read them all :))

    Maybe I could treat Colonel Sun or Devil May Care in a NSNA sort of fashion. But something like Benson, reading one means reading them all...

    Do I miss out on vital Bond if I don't bother? Love to get some advice here :)

    I gave up after 'Devil May Care'!
    Colonel Sun was the only worthwhile read! Hated the Gardner novels! And I'm just not going to bother with any new ones!

    I don't blame you @Mathis1

    I always invariably end up disappointed with the non-Fleming novels (Apart from Colonel Sun)

    There are more often than not some decent stuff in those books, but ultimately as complete novels they leave me unfulfilled.
  • edited 1:48pm Posts: 5,213
    The Gardner books I've read are a bit hit or miss for me, but I do like how mad they become even just by the second one. We literally get mind control ice cream, haha. I do agree that his books are much more readable than Benson's though. Not read all of his either, but I revisited the Union Trilogy for the first time in a while last year. They were much worse than I remember them being (I actually liked HTTK when I first read it, but this time a lot of its issues really stood out for me - the bizarre schoolboy rivalry Bond has with one of the characters which is a bit cringeworthy to read, the fact that The Union are quite incompetent despite the book telling us how dangerous they are, and like many of Benson's novels it contains action scenes which feel like they've been put in there just to have them rather than them progressing the story. The writing's generally average to sometimes bad which doesn't help). Blast From The Past even in its unedited form I'd genuinely say remains the worst written thing in all of literary Bond.
    echo wrote: »
    I did read Colonel Sun when it was finally re-released about 7 or so years ago. I found it passable, but overrated. I've never been able to get through the Wood novelizations.

    I must admit, last time I re-read CS it didn't quite hold up as well as it has done previously for me. I do enjoy it though, and there's a lot in the beginning and later chapters that I like.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited 1:55pm Posts: 6,703
    Thinking a bit more about Gardner and his emotional journeys. Other than the double crosses and the attempts to find a new Tracy, I just don't think he did much with the character.

    In comparison, Fleming loved to put Bond through the wringer in different ways each time. Betrayal, near-death, Tracy of course, mental breakdown, amnesia. Even the short stories, perhaps *especially* the short stories--TLD and OP are my favorites--had a unique and tight hold on the character and his decisions.

    Bond was an avatar for Fleming and his hopes, his fears, his views of the world. With such a close association of author and character, they can't help but yield more fulfilling stories.

    This is all a way of saying that I get more out of rereading Fleming than I do exploring new Bond authors.
  • edited 1:55pm Posts: 1,139
    I think there's a lot of fun to be had from the continuation novels. It'd be interesting to hand someone who knows absolutely nothing about Fleming some of these books for comparison. I doubt anyone would think any Benson book is better than a masterwork like From Russia With Love, but only last year I rean Golden Gun and With a Mind to Kill in succession, and I found MTK the more engrossing read. Was it because I'd read Golden Gun many years before?
    Or is it actually possible it's a more entertaining book?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited 2:04pm Posts: 18,025
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Going to start rereading CR one of these days as I continue revisiting the Fleming Bonds.

    Just wondering though, how worthwhile are the non-Flemings? Because I know myself, a bit of a completist, if I read one I have crossed that border and will need to read them all :))

    Maybe I could treat Colonel Sun or Devil May Care in a NSNA sort of fashion. But something like Benson, reading one means reading them all...

    Do I miss out on vital Bond if I don't bother? Love to get some advice here :)

    I read them all. Honestly the hardest part is getting your hands on all of them; it's a slog.

    Any Bond fand should read Amis' and Wood's works. They fit in with Fleming quite well prosewise and the stories are relatively good.

    The Gardner's are relatively good to begin with, but around Book 7/8 they start become hard to read and blend together in ridiculousness and uniqueness. Beyond that point, Gardner took liberties beyond what was normal: Bond drinks tea and dislikes eggs. There are still high points in the late part of the series (Death is Forever) but books like Never Send Flowers (sorry Dragonpol), Seafire, and Cold tested my patience. The three book axis of Role of Honour, Nobody Lives Forever and No Deals Mr. Bond is a high point.

    Benson's novels read and are plotted exactly like the Brosnan films. The first three are definitely worth a read, and some childish dialogue is worth tolerating for the innovative and geopolitical stories. Zero Minus Ten is a good start; High Time to Kill and Doubleshot are highpoints, but the last two lack the originality of the first 4 and become silly, with classic Fleming characters making dubious returns.

    The celebrity trio of Faulks, Deaver, and Boyd all do an alright job. Faulks really just copy-pasted Fleming tropes and stereotypes into story, but it's entertaining for me (it was my first Bond novel). Deaver writes an interesting modern story, but at times the character doesn't feel like James Bond and constant twists sometimes become annoying rather than suspenseful. Boyd writes a spy thriller but the second half falls off as Bond discovers rather than does. The story has a moral and geopolitical touch to it with the theme of British interference in other countries' affairs for selfish reasons.

    Horowitz, having quasi written young Bond in Alex Rider, drops the entertaining pastiche and writes three serious and good Bond novels. The last two have heavy emotional content for Bond, and they are believable in the context of the Fleming Series.

    Higson and Sherwood write modern, serviceable but ultimately unnoteworthy novels.

    I'd generally agree with that; I'd say Gardners are readable but you can really tell he's making them up as he writes them, so many good characters turn out to be double agents, or triple agents, it becomes tiring, and it's arguable how much they have to do with Fleming really. Benson has more in the way of unique ideas for his books but they're written appallingly, I honestly find them barely professional standard and the plots feel a bit childish- I'd honestly say that Higson's kids books feel more adult. Faulks goes for full pastiche which is okay if you're in the mood but also feels a bit less than genuine and sneering if you're feeling uncharitable. Deaver has lots of interesting ideas for updating the world of Bond but Bond himself feels oddly absent, and the story is pretty shapeless. Boyd's feels the most literary to me, it isn't a resounding success but tries something new with Bond at least. Not much fun though.
    Definitely agree that Horowitz's are probably the pick of the bunch, just good entertaining thriller novels which fit into Fleming without trying to be him, and written very solidly.
    I will give a word for Higson though, although written more for teens, he's the only one who felt to me like he got the feel for Fleming's sadistic side. There's some nicely weird and twisted stuff in there.
    Colonel Sun is very nicely written and almost feels like Fleming, but the story is oddly balanced and runs out of steam I think. You're far from belted along it like a Fleming does, and some of the political ideas are a little unusual for 007.
  • edited 2:15pm Posts: 5,213
    echo wrote: »
    Thinking a bit more about Gardner and his emotional journeys. Other than the double crosses and the attempts to find a new Tracy, I just don't think he did much with the character.

    In comparison, Fleming loved to put Bond through the wringer in different ways each time. Betrayal, near-death, Tracy of course, mental breakdown, amnesia. Even the short stories, perhaps *especially* the short stories--TLD and OP are my favorites--had a unique and tight hold on the character and his decisions.

    Bond was an avatar for Fleming and his hopes, his fears, his views of the world. With such a close association of author and character, they can't help but yield more fulfilling stories.

    This is all a way of saying that I get more out of rereading Fleming than I do exploring new Bond authors.

    I suppose it's one thing I can say positively about Benson - there were attempts to put Bond through the wringer. It's better conceptually than how it's actually done in my opinion, but there was stuff like Bond sustaining a severe head injury in DS and effectively being driven mad by the villains for their own purposes. Or him having to deal with a raid going wrong and innocents dying as a result in NDOD (and of course the return of Draco in that one. Heck, I even like the eye torture scene in that one). It's a bit of a shame as his writing style is genuinely appalling at points, but there's potential in those ideas.

    mtm wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Going to start rereading CR one of these days as I continue revisiting the Fleming Bonds.

    Just wondering though, how worthwhile are the non-Flemings? Because I know myself, a bit of a completist, if I read one I have crossed that border and will need to read them all :))

    Maybe I could treat Colonel Sun or Devil May Care in a NSNA sort of fashion. But something like Benson, reading one means reading them all...

    Do I miss out on vital Bond if I don't bother? Love to get some advice here :)

    I read them all. Honestly the hardest part is getting your hands on all of them; it's a slog.

    Any Bond fand should read Amis' and Wood's works. They fit in with Fleming quite well prosewise and the stories are relatively good.

    The Gardner's are relatively good to begin with, but around Book 7/8 they start become hard to read and blend together in ridiculousness and uniqueness. Beyond that point, Gardner took liberties beyond what was normal: Bond drinks tea and dislikes eggs. There are still high points in the late part of the series (Death is Forever) but books like Never Send Flowers (sorry Dragonpol), Seafire, and Cold tested my patience. The three book axis of Role of Honour, Nobody Lives Forever and No Deals Mr. Bond is a high point.

    Benson's novels read and are plotted exactly like the Brosnan films. The first three are definitely worth a read, and some childish dialogue is worth tolerating for the innovative and geopolitical stories. Zero Minus Ten is a good start; High Time to Kill and Doubleshot are highpoints, but the last two lack the originality of the first 4 and become silly, with classic Fleming characters making dubious returns.

    The celebrity trio of Faulks, Deaver, and Boyd all do an alright job. Faulks really just copy-pasted Fleming tropes and stereotypes into story, but it's entertaining for me (it was my first Bond novel). Deaver writes an interesting modern story, but at times the character doesn't feel like James Bond and constant twists sometimes become annoying rather than suspenseful. Boyd writes a spy thriller but the second half falls off as Bond discovers rather than does. The story has a moral and geopolitical touch to it with the theme of British interference in other countries' affairs for selfish reasons.

    Horowitz, having quasi written young Bond in Alex Rider, drops the entertaining pastiche and writes three serious and good Bond novels. The last two have heavy emotional content for Bond, and they are believable in the context of the Fleming Series.

    Higson and Sherwood write modern, serviceable but ultimately unnoteworthy novels.

    I'd generally agree with that; I'd say Gardners are readable but you can really tell he's making them up as he writes them, so many good characters turn out to be double agents, or triple agents, it becomes tiring, and it's arguable how much they have to do with Fleming really. Benson has more in the way of unique ideas for his books but they're written appallingly, I honestly find them barely professional standard and the plots feel a bit childish- I'd honestly say that Higson's kids books feel more adult. Faulks goes for full pastiche which is okay if you're in the mood but also feels a bit less than genuine and sneering if you're feeling uncharitable. Deaver has lots of interesting ideas for updating the world of Bond but Bond himself feels oddly absent, and the story is pretty shapeless. Boyd's feels the most literary to me, it isn't a resounding success but tries something new with Bond at least. Not much fun though.
    Definitely agree that Horowitz's are probably the pick of the bunch, just good entertaining thriller novels which fit into Fleming without trying to be him, and written very solidly.
    I will give a word for Higson though, although written more for teens, he's the only one who felt to me like he got the feel for Fleming's sadistic side. There's some nicely weird and twisted stuff in there.
    Colonel Sun is very nicely written and almost feels like Fleming, but the story is oddly balanced and runs out of steam I think. You're far from belted along it like a Fleming does, and some of the political ideas are a little unusual for 007.

    I think for me it's the chapter when Bond gets to Greece that CS starts to feel like that. It seems to amount to Bond conveniently figuring out an off the cuff plan to lure him there and then just showing up and seeing what happens. Fleming certainly had his plotting issues with some pretty major contrivances, but it almost feels like Amis is consciously trying to replicate that side of Fleming's writing, and it all feels a bit too passive.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 5,014
    I think there's a lot of fun to be had from the continuation novels. It'd be interesting to hand someone who knows absolutely nothing about Fleming some of these books for comparison. I doubt anyone would think any Benson book is better than a masterwork like From Russia With Love, but only last year I rean Golden Gun and With a Mind to Kill in succession, and I found MTK the more engrossing read. Was it because I'd read Golden Gun many years before?
    Or is it actually possible it's a more entertaining book?

    Yes, but one advantage that WAMTK had over TMWTGG was that Horowitz could properly review and polish what he had written. Fleming's health arguably hurt the TMWTGG from the beginning.

    I also think that it will be interesting where IFP takes the character(s) next. There is truly fun and imagination from different viewpoints from writing Bond.
  • Posts: 1,139
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Yes, but one advantage that WAMTK had over TMWTGG was that Horowitz could properly review and polish what he had written. Fleming's health arguably hurt the TMWTGG from the beginning.

    Yes, I realised I'd opened myself up to that. I should have said Diamonds, or another not so-celebrated Fleming book, (I found Goldfinger a little pedestrian on my last re-read, even though the first chapter is amongst my favourite Fleming prose).
  • edited 2:19pm Posts: 5,213
    I'd say Horowitz's work are some of the better continuation novels, but WAMTK doesn't feel like a Bond novel to me, and some of the scenes don't quite work for me. FAAD is pretty good, although the villains are pretty poor, and in a similar way to WAMTK there are bits of it I don't think are well written. His writing style is functional, but not overly interesting I guess. Need to revisit TM because I genuinely can't remember a single thing about it!

    For all of Fleming's flaws, there's something about those Bond novels that keeps me engaged, even with the weaker novels. I think it helps that Fleming's prose was a lot more electric.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,703
    007HallY wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Thinking a bit more about Gardner and his emotional journeys. Other than the double crosses and the attempts to find a new Tracy, I just don't think he did much with the character.

    In comparison, Fleming loved to put Bond through the wringer in different ways each time. Betrayal, near-death, Tracy of course, mental breakdown, amnesia. Even the short stories, perhaps *especially* the short stories--TLD and OP are my favorites--had a unique and tight hold on the character and his decisions.

    Bond was an avatar for Fleming and his hopes, his fears, his views of the world. With such a close association of author and character, they can't help but yield more fulfilling stories.

    This is all a way of saying that I get more out of rereading Fleming than I do exploring new Bond authors.

    I suppose it's one thing I can say positively about Benson - there were attempts to put Bond through the wringer. It's better conceptually than how it's actually done in my opinion, but there was stuff like Bond sustaining a severe head injury in DS and effectively being driven mad by the villains for their own purposes. Or him having to deal with a raid going wrong and innocents dying as a result in NDOD (and of course the return of Draco in that one. Heck, I even like the eye torture scene in that one). It's a bit of a shame as his writing style is genuinely appalling at points, but there's potential in those ideas.

    mtm wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Going to start rereading CR one of these days as I continue revisiting the Fleming Bonds.

    Just wondering though, how worthwhile are the non-Flemings? Because I know myself, a bit of a completist, if I read one I have crossed that border and will need to read them all :))

    Maybe I could treat Colonel Sun or Devil May Care in a NSNA sort of fashion. But something like Benson, reading one means reading them all...

    Do I miss out on vital Bond if I don't bother? Love to get some advice here :)

    I read them all. Honestly the hardest part is getting your hands on all of them; it's a slog.

    Any Bond fand should read Amis' and Wood's works. They fit in with Fleming quite well prosewise and the stories are relatively good.

    The Gardner's are relatively good to begin with, but around Book 7/8 they start become hard to read and blend together in ridiculousness and uniqueness. Beyond that point, Gardner took liberties beyond what was normal: Bond drinks tea and dislikes eggs. There are still high points in the late part of the series (Death is Forever) but books like Never Send Flowers (sorry Dragonpol), Seafire, and Cold tested my patience. The three book axis of Role of Honour, Nobody Lives Forever and No Deals Mr. Bond is a high point.

    Benson's novels read and are plotted exactly like the Brosnan films. The first three are definitely worth a read, and some childish dialogue is worth tolerating for the innovative and geopolitical stories. Zero Minus Ten is a good start; High Time to Kill and Doubleshot are highpoints, but the last two lack the originality of the first 4 and become silly, with classic Fleming characters making dubious returns.

    The celebrity trio of Faulks, Deaver, and Boyd all do an alright job. Faulks really just copy-pasted Fleming tropes and stereotypes into story, but it's entertaining for me (it was my first Bond novel). Deaver writes an interesting modern story, but at times the character doesn't feel like James Bond and constant twists sometimes become annoying rather than suspenseful. Boyd writes a spy thriller but the second half falls off as Bond discovers rather than does. The story has a moral and geopolitical touch to it with the theme of British interference in other countries' affairs for selfish reasons.

    Horowitz, having quasi written young Bond in Alex Rider, drops the entertaining pastiche and writes three serious and good Bond novels. The last two have heavy emotional content for Bond, and they are believable in the context of the Fleming Series.

    Higson and Sherwood write modern, serviceable but ultimately unnoteworthy novels.

    I'd generally agree with that; I'd say Gardners are readable but you can really tell he's making them up as he writes them, so many good characters turn out to be double agents, or triple agents, it becomes tiring, and it's arguable how much they have to do with Fleming really. Benson has more in the way of unique ideas for his books but they're written appallingly, I honestly find them barely professional standard and the plots feel a bit childish- I'd honestly say that Higson's kids books feel more adult. Faulks goes for full pastiche which is okay if you're in the mood but also feels a bit less than genuine and sneering if you're feeling uncharitable. Deaver has lots of interesting ideas for updating the world of Bond but Bond himself feels oddly absent, and the story is pretty shapeless. Boyd's feels the most literary to me, it isn't a resounding success but tries something new with Bond at least. Not much fun though.
    Definitely agree that Horowitz's are probably the pick of the bunch, just good entertaining thriller novels which fit into Fleming without trying to be him, and written very solidly.
    I will give a word for Higson though, although written more for teens, he's the only one who felt to me like he got the feel for Fleming's sadistic side. There's some nicely weird and twisted stuff in there.
    Colonel Sun is very nicely written and almost feels like Fleming, but the story is oddly balanced and runs out of steam I think. You're far from belted along it like a Fleming does, and some of the political ideas are a little unusual for 007.

    I think for me it's the chapter when Bond gets to Greece that CS starts to feel like that. It seems to amount to Bond conveniently figuring out an off the cuff plan to lure him there and then just showing up and seeing what happens. Fleming certainly had his plotting issues with some pretty major contrivances, but it almost feels like Amis is consciously trying to replicate that side of Fleming's writing, and it all feels a bit too passive.

    Ironically, I'm going back to Benson and a phrase he coined, "Fleming sweep." Fleming definitely had ridiculous, ludicrous plot contrivances, but while reading him, I don't care because it is such a stylish ride.
  • edited 3:11pm Posts: 5,213
    echo wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Thinking a bit more about Gardner and his emotional journeys. Other than the double crosses and the attempts to find a new Tracy, I just don't think he did much with the character.

    In comparison, Fleming loved to put Bond through the wringer in different ways each time. Betrayal, near-death, Tracy of course, mental breakdown, amnesia. Even the short stories, perhaps *especially* the short stories--TLD and OP are my favorites--had a unique and tight hold on the character and his decisions.

    Bond was an avatar for Fleming and his hopes, his fears, his views of the world. With such a close association of author and character, they can't help but yield more fulfilling stories.

    This is all a way of saying that I get more out of rereading Fleming than I do exploring new Bond authors.

    I suppose it's one thing I can say positively about Benson - there were attempts to put Bond through the wringer. It's better conceptually than how it's actually done in my opinion, but there was stuff like Bond sustaining a severe head injury in DS and effectively being driven mad by the villains for their own purposes. Or him having to deal with a raid going wrong and innocents dying as a result in NDOD (and of course the return of Draco in that one. Heck, I even like the eye torture scene in that one). It's a bit of a shame as his writing style is genuinely appalling at points, but there's potential in those ideas.

    mtm wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Going to start rereading CR one of these days as I continue revisiting the Fleming Bonds.

    Just wondering though, how worthwhile are the non-Flemings? Because I know myself, a bit of a completist, if I read one I have crossed that border and will need to read them all :))

    Maybe I could treat Colonel Sun or Devil May Care in a NSNA sort of fashion. But something like Benson, reading one means reading them all...

    Do I miss out on vital Bond if I don't bother? Love to get some advice here :)

    I read them all. Honestly the hardest part is getting your hands on all of them; it's a slog.

    Any Bond fand should read Amis' and Wood's works. They fit in with Fleming quite well prosewise and the stories are relatively good.

    The Gardner's are relatively good to begin with, but around Book 7/8 they start become hard to read and blend together in ridiculousness and uniqueness. Beyond that point, Gardner took liberties beyond what was normal: Bond drinks tea and dislikes eggs. There are still high points in the late part of the series (Death is Forever) but books like Never Send Flowers (sorry Dragonpol), Seafire, and Cold tested my patience. The three book axis of Role of Honour, Nobody Lives Forever and No Deals Mr. Bond is a high point.

    Benson's novels read and are plotted exactly like the Brosnan films. The first three are definitely worth a read, and some childish dialogue is worth tolerating for the innovative and geopolitical stories. Zero Minus Ten is a good start; High Time to Kill and Doubleshot are highpoints, but the last two lack the originality of the first 4 and become silly, with classic Fleming characters making dubious returns.

    The celebrity trio of Faulks, Deaver, and Boyd all do an alright job. Faulks really just copy-pasted Fleming tropes and stereotypes into story, but it's entertaining for me (it was my first Bond novel). Deaver writes an interesting modern story, but at times the character doesn't feel like James Bond and constant twists sometimes become annoying rather than suspenseful. Boyd writes a spy thriller but the second half falls off as Bond discovers rather than does. The story has a moral and geopolitical touch to it with the theme of British interference in other countries' affairs for selfish reasons.

    Horowitz, having quasi written young Bond in Alex Rider, drops the entertaining pastiche and writes three serious and good Bond novels. The last two have heavy emotional content for Bond, and they are believable in the context of the Fleming Series.

    Higson and Sherwood write modern, serviceable but ultimately unnoteworthy novels.

    I'd generally agree with that; I'd say Gardners are readable but you can really tell he's making them up as he writes them, so many good characters turn out to be double agents, or triple agents, it becomes tiring, and it's arguable how much they have to do with Fleming really. Benson has more in the way of unique ideas for his books but they're written appallingly, I honestly find them barely professional standard and the plots feel a bit childish- I'd honestly say that Higson's kids books feel more adult. Faulks goes for full pastiche which is okay if you're in the mood but also feels a bit less than genuine and sneering if you're feeling uncharitable. Deaver has lots of interesting ideas for updating the world of Bond but Bond himself feels oddly absent, and the story is pretty shapeless. Boyd's feels the most literary to me, it isn't a resounding success but tries something new with Bond at least. Not much fun though.
    Definitely agree that Horowitz's are probably the pick of the bunch, just good entertaining thriller novels which fit into Fleming without trying to be him, and written very solidly.
    I will give a word for Higson though, although written more for teens, he's the only one who felt to me like he got the feel for Fleming's sadistic side. There's some nicely weird and twisted stuff in there.
    Colonel Sun is very nicely written and almost feels like Fleming, but the story is oddly balanced and runs out of steam I think. You're far from belted along it like a Fleming does, and some of the political ideas are a little unusual for 007.

    I think for me it's the chapter when Bond gets to Greece that CS starts to feel like that. It seems to amount to Bond conveniently figuring out an off the cuff plan to lure him there and then just showing up and seeing what happens. Fleming certainly had his plotting issues with some pretty major contrivances, but it almost feels like Amis is consciously trying to replicate that side of Fleming's writing, and it all feels a bit too passive.

    Ironically, I'm going back to Benson and a phrase he coined, "Fleming sweep." Fleming definitely had ridiculous, ludicrous plot contrivances, but while reading him, I don't care because it is such a stylish ride.

    It's easy to forget Benson's a bit of a Fleming scholar. That said having read what he means by the Fleming sweep (which seems to amount to hooking the reader at the end of a chapter by heightening the tension, thereby keeping the momentum of the novel going) another part of me thinks him being amazed at... well, simply effective writing also makes sense!
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,703
    I hope that Amazon goes back to Fleming for inspiration, and doesn't just rely on Bond film history, because Fleming frequently results in a better film. Not always, but most of the time.
  • edited 6:31pm Posts: 393
    Benson's dialogue is really the poorest part of his novels: Bond sounds like a teenager and not a pleasant one at that. It's probably the result of being a new writer; even some of his descriptions are lifted from travel brochures (or so I've heard).

    The Fleming Sweep always felt like a bit of a myth as well. I don't think Fleming ends chapters on cliffhangers that often, especially since many stories like Dr. No or Moonraker lack a lot of action. Rather Fleming writes with an inertia that makes it harder to put down by keeping low moments (sleeping, dressing, travel) between chapters so that the energy never really drops.

    Deaver's Bond novel, for example, is more "Fleming Sweep" than Fleming himself
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