Where does Bond go after Craig?

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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,355
    peter wrote: »
    But not one Moore in my top ten.

    Nobody's right about everything I guess :P
  • Posts: 886
    peter wrote: »
    I'm not that old but I grew up waching Bond movies on TV. I watched all of them before 1995, so the Brosnan era didn't define my tastes.

    This is an example of how it works.

    Okay... I grew up watching the Connery films on VHS, but my first theatrical films, were Moore's.

    But not one Moore in my top ten.
    Only one Dalton.
    No Brozz.
    And in my middle-age, where you'd think my tastes were long ago established by my "generational influences", I have found a strong liking for the Craig films-- although he is far away from being my first taste of who James Bond is (that would be Connery via VHS, and then Moore via theatrical, and VHS)...

    I think, yes, some people may experience a generational divide, but I don't think all can be simply painted with such a broad brush...(?). Or maybe I'm completely wrong on this.

    I just feel that tastes are fluid and can change over time. Some may be influenced by the era they grew up in, where others aren't so binary and rigid in choices....

    As I said, your tastes are pretty consistent. Connery and Craig are not that far.

  • Posts: 3,211
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    That said I’ve noticed it’s TND that seems to get a bit more attention nowadays. It may be a recent-ish thing and the whole ‘fake news’ storyline having some relevance in the recent past… that and it’s genuinely an enjoyable film.

    That's good, I've always enjoyed that one. Probably my favourite of his, and I do think the media mogul plot is a genuinely good and original idea.

    It’s my go to Bond film when watching one with other people (I’ve heard it described as a perfect pizza and beer Bond film on these forums). It’s great, obviously wasn’t quite as well regarded when it was released so it’s great to see it more fondly viewed. Like I said it’s even broken my top ten from doing the film rankings, and I’d say it’s very much deserved.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited May 18 Posts: 8,864
    mtm wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    But not one Moore in my top ten.

    Nobody's right about everything I guess :P

    😂 @mtm ... As I was saying, tastes are fluid and for some people not so rigid. I can tell you, more than a few of your posts about Moore have given me pause in the past.

    Some of these posts made me re-evaluate.

    And certainly there's far more appreciation for the man and his films, to the point that a few of his outings clutter up my rankings just outside of my top ten (and sometimes have popped in and out of the top rankings, knocking out TLD, or QoS, if only briefly).

    So you've played an influence in my Moore re-evaluation, and I can say if I was to judge just the performances of each actor (and not the films as a whole), Moore would enter the top ten, for sure (LALD and OP being two performances that would be in there).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 15,355
    Heh! It's okay, just joshing, but nice to know I've encouraged you to look again at the great man :D
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,864
    mtm wrote: »
    Heh! It's okay, just joshing, but nice to know I've encouraged you to look again at the great man :D

    Definitely! And that’s why, although I think there could be an element of truth about “generational differences”, I just don’t buy that concept as a whole.

    Tastes are fluid. And if one is open to less binary thinking, opinions can, and will, change.

    I think the original point I was getting at is, as a child of the Moore era, he should, or his films should, conceivably, be scattered in my top ten, and he, according to my generation, should be the figure, or one of two figures, to shape and define my taste of who and what Bond is.

    But Moore’s films aren’t embedded in my top ten, and instead, his era, one of Dalton’s films, all of Brosnan’s, are skipped over, but some “short”, blond, mainly indie actor, impressed himself, and his films, into my all time favourite 007 films, including his last (residing as my (shock and blasphemy!) number one).
  • edited May 18 Posts: 886
    Opinions can change but fans, as a whole, can change too.

  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,864
    Opinions can change but fans, as a whole, can change too.

    Uhm… okay? I think you’re pretty much saying the same thing I’m saying, or……….
  • Posts: 2,116
    peter wrote: »
    Opinions can change but fans, as a whole, can change too.

    Uhm… okay? I think you’re pretty much saying the same thing I’m saying, or……….

    He’s gone “ Confucius” on us!
  • edited May 18 Posts: 886
    peter wrote: »
    Opinions can change but fans, as a whole, can change too.

    Uhm… okay? I think you’re pretty much saying the same thing I’m saying, or……….

    Or generational differences are real.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,864
    peter wrote: »
    Opinions can change but fans, as a whole, can change too.

    Uhm… okay? I think you’re pretty much saying the same thing I’m saying, or……….

    Or generational diferences are real.

    🤯 mind totally blown man 🤯…. Deke you are so trippy dude. You say one thing, then another. You’re sooooo fascinating!

    @007ClassicBondFan , you give someone a chance, and…. Well, I’m more the idiot. I bang my head against a wall, or in this case, against a genius like Deke, and I’m hoping for something different instead of troll-like comments.

    I’ve only myself to blame, seriously, 😂!!!
  • edited May 18 Posts: 2,116
    I don’t think anyone was denying that “generational differences” are real at all. Of course somebody who grew up watching 60’s Bond might prefer those films to the Craig era; somebody who grew up watching 70’s Bond might prefer those films to the Brosnan years. Or you could have a case like @peter where he came of age during the Moore era, but tends to lean more towards Connery/Craig. There’s differences in opinion, but I hardly ever see much “gatekeepers” in the Bond fandom unlike the Star Wars fandom, where even implying you prefer either the PT or ST to the OT results in being ruthlessly crucified by your peers.

    peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Opinions can change but fans, as a whole, can change too.

    Uhm… okay? I think you’re pretty much saying the same thing I’m saying, or……….

    Or generational diferences are real.

    🤯 mind totally blown man 🤯…. Deke you are so trippy dude. You say one thing, then another. You’re sooooo fascinating!

    @007ClassicBondFan , you give someone a chance, and…. Well, I’m more the idiot. I bang my head against a wall, or in this case, against a genius like Deke, and I’m hoping for something different instead of troll-like comments.

    I’ve only myself to blame, seriously, 😂!!!

    When I saw him call GE basically like an old “Roger Moore” film I had to stop myself from falling for the bait lmao.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,864
    I don’t think anyone was denying that “generational differences” are real at all. Of course somebody who grew up watching 60’s Bond might prefer those films to the Craig era; somebody who grew up watching 70’s Bond might prefer those films to the Brosnan years. Or you could have a case like @peter where he came of age during the Moore era, but tends to lean more towards Connery/Craig. There’s differences in opinion, but I hardly ever see much “gatekeepers” in the Bond fandom unlike the Star Wars fandom, where even implying you prefer either the PT or ST to the OT results in being ruthlessly crucified by your peers.

    Nice post @007ClassicBondFan … anecdotally my parents were “original” fans, or perhaps I should put “fan”(s) in quotation marks as well, since my mum tagged along with my dad at the start…. Nevertheless, they were there from the beginning. And they were born in England and living there during the birth of the James Bond phenomenon (they didn’t move to Toronto until the 70s).

    My dad was a die hard Connery fan his entire life. So rigid he hated OHMSS because Connery wasn’t in it.

    My mum didn’t like Connery, but really enjoyed Moore (whom my dad dismissed as The Saint).

    Then, my wife’s dad, an original fan, a Canadian from a small town, always loved James Bond and enjoyed every single actor, but, he thought NTTD was the best one. So…. 🤷‍♂️….

    There’s of course an argument for “generational differences “, but; for every one of those there are ppl like my mum, and then there are ppl like my father-in-law: not so easy to peg or define with a broad brush.

    Nuance…

  • Posts: 2,116
    peter wrote: »
    I don’t think anyone was denying that “generational differences” are real at all. Of course somebody who grew up watching 60’s Bond might prefer those films to the Craig era; somebody who grew up watching 70’s Bond might prefer those films to the Brosnan years. Or you could have a case like @peter where he came of age during the Moore era, but tends to lean more towards Connery/Craig. There’s differences in opinion, but I hardly ever see much “gatekeepers” in the Bond fandom unlike the Star Wars fandom, where even implying you prefer either the PT or ST to the OT results in being ruthlessly crucified by your peers.

    Nice post @007ClassicBondFan … anecdotally my parents were “original” fans, or perhaps I should put “fan”(s) in quotation marks as well, since my mum tagged along with my dad at the start…. Nevertheless, they were there from the beginning. And they were born in England and living there during the birth of the James Bond phenomenon (they didn’t move to Toronto until the 70s).

    My dad was a die hard Connery fan his entire life. So rigid he hated OHMSS because Connery wasn’t in it.

    My mum didn’t like Connery, but really enjoyed Moore (whom my dad dismissed as The Saint).

    Then, my wife’s dad, an original fan, a Canadian from a small town, always loved James Bond and enjoyed every single actor, but, he thought NTTD was the best one. So…. 🤷‍♂️….

    There’s of course an argument for “generational differences “, but; for every one of those there are ppl like my mum, and then there are ppl like my father-in-law: not so easy to peg or define with a broad brush.

    Nuance…

    Wonderful story @peter! My father came of age during the Moore years (he was never a huge Bond fan but he was a HUGE action movie fan so he’d never turn away a Bond film unless he found something else) and he always cites “Octopussy” (of all films) as the one he remembers most; in fact I’m fairly certain the only reason I got to see “Casino Royale” in theaters was because my father thought it was going to be something similar to “Octopussy” or the Brosnan flicks thus appropriate for a 9 year old to see. I’m pretty sure he realized his mistake by the time we got to the Torture scene hahaha.

    It’s nuanced like you said and that’s why I love Bond. There are so many different films in the series, each with their own style/vision for the character yet they never stray too far away from the core concepts of the character; that makes for tons of variety at our disposal as an audience (something that I personally feel many big franchises like Star Wars and the MCU lack.) That variety makes discussing the series fun imo.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,864
    It’s nuanced like you said and that’s why I love Bond. There are so many different films in the series, each with their own style/vision for the character yet they never stray too far away from the core concepts of the character; that makes for tons of variety at our disposal as an audience (something that I personally feel many big franchises like Star Wars and the MCU lack.) That variety makes discussing the series fun imo

    Lovely thoughts, @007ClassicBondFan !
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,062
    peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Opinions can change but fans, as a whole, can change too.

    Uhm… okay? I think you’re pretty much saying the same thing I’m saying, or……….

    Or generational diferences are real.

    🤯 mind totally blown man 🤯…. Deke you are so trippy dude. You say one thing, then another. You’re sooooo fascinating!

    @007ClassicBondFan , you give someone a chance, and…. Well, I’m more the idiot. I bang my head against a wall, or in this case, against a genius like Deke, and I’m hoping for something different instead of troll-like comments.

    I’ve only myself to blame, seriously, 😂!!!

    Forget it, @peter, it's Deketown. ;)
  • edited May 18 Posts: 886
    I don’t think anyone was denying that “generational differences” are real at all. Of course somebody who grew up watching 60’s Bond might prefer those films to the Craig era; somebody who grew up watching 70’s Bond might prefer those films to the Brosnan years. Or you could have a case like @peter where he came of age during the Moore era, but tends to lean more towards Connery/Craig. There’s differences in opinion, but I hardly ever see much “gatekeepers” in the Bond fandom unlike the Star Wars fandom, where even implying you prefer either the PT or ST to the OT results in being ruthlessly crucified by your peers.

    peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Opinions can change but fans, as a whole, can change too.

    Uhm… okay? I think you’re pretty much saying the same thing I’m saying, or……….

    Or generational diferences are real.

    🤯 mind totally blown man 🤯…. Deke you are so trippy dude. You say one thing, then another. You’re sooooo fascinating!

    @007ClassicBondFan , you give someone a chance, and…. Well, I’m more the idiot. I bang my head against a wall, or in this case, against a genius like Deke, and I’m hoping for something different instead of troll-like comments.

    I’ve only myself to blame, seriously, 😂!!!

    When I saw him call GE basically like an old “Roger Moore” film I had to stop myself from falling for the bait lmao.



    So where is the problem?
  • Posts: 2,116
    You can’t even format your responses correctly @DEKE_RIVERS.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,864
    echo wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Opinions can change but fans, as a whole, can change too.

    Uhm… okay? I think you’re pretty much saying the same thing I’m saying, or……….

    Or generational diferences are real.

    🤯 mind totally blown man 🤯…. Deke you are so trippy dude. You say one thing, then another. You’re sooooo fascinating!

    @007ClassicBondFan , you give someone a chance, and…. Well, I’m more the idiot. I bang my head against a wall, or in this case, against a genius like Deke, and I’m hoping for something different instead of troll-like comments.

    I’ve only myself to blame, seriously, 😂!!!

    Forget it, @peter, it's Deketown. ;)

    One day I’ll learn!! 😂
  • Posts: 120
    Well, I hope the next era is more my cup of tea. I really liked CR and the more grounded/darker style at first, it certainly was refreshing especially after the over-the-top DAD.
    But with the following films I got increasingly bored with the more serious approach and NTTD was a huge disappointment in the end, SP would have been the better final film. Also, I wasn't a fan of Craig's portrayal as James Bond (to be honest, I like him much more in the role of Benoit Blanc).
    From my point of view, things can almost only go uphill now, but I have my doubts.
  • Posts: 886
    echo wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Opinions can change but fans, as a whole, can change too.

    Uhm… okay? I think you’re pretty much saying the same thing I’m saying, or……….

    Or generational diferences are real.

    🤯 mind totally blown man 🤯…. Deke you are so trippy dude. You say one thing, then another. You’re sooooo fascinating!

    @007ClassicBondFan , you give someone a chance, and…. Well, I’m more the idiot. I bang my head against a wall, or in this case, against a genius like Deke, and I’m hoping for something different instead of troll-like comments.

    I’ve only myself to blame, seriously, 😂!!!

    Forget it, @peter, it's Deketown. ;)

    Deketown is a nice place to live. You can say generational differences are real!
  • Posts: 513
    Does anyone here seriously belive that nobody is working on the script of Bond 26 right now, two and a half YEARS after the premiere of NTTD? Come on!
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,864
    echo wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Opinions can change but fans, as a whole, can change too.

    Uhm… okay? I think you’re pretty much saying the same thing I’m saying, or……….

    Or generational diferences are real.

    🤯 mind totally blown man 🤯…. Deke you are so trippy dude. You say one thing, then another. You’re sooooo fascinating!

    @007ClassicBondFan , you give someone a chance, and…. Well, I’m more the idiot. I bang my head against a wall, or in this case, against a genius like Deke, and I’m hoping for something different instead of troll-like comments.

    I’ve only myself to blame, seriously, 😂!!!

    Forget it, @peter, it's Deketown. ;)

    Deketown is a nice place to live. You can say generational differences are real!

    No one said they weren’t, Deke.

    I stated it’s not the full story and then gave examples, where you just make sweeping generalizations and your five word posts that have no value to any conversation.

    Some people call that gaslighting. Others call it trolling. I just say it’s got tiresome, 🤷‍♂️…
  • Posts: 1,632
    No matter how much technology has evolved, how things and attitudes have changed,
    Connery remains the best Bond period. Call it generational whatever, he is simply the best hands down. His Bond has a look, style, charm, and ease on screen that none of his successors do. For me the iconic still of his leaning against the Aston in Goldfinger is the essence of Bond that has never been captured by another actor and certainly not rivaled.
    His first four films are in my top six. OHMSS comes closest in capturing the feel of a Connery Bond film. Moore's best was his first, as was Dalton's, Brosnan's, and Craig's.

    The Brosnan era is a blackhole. I have to work hard to recall anything about his films. As with Moore, I never bought him as Bond. Both actors are accomplished, but neither convinced me they were Bond. They were merely playing the role. PB has been a much better actor since.

    Craig succeeds as an unpolished Connery. He never exudes the casual charm of Connery. CR is in my top six, but his subsequent films don't come close to his first outing. Behind Connery in my ranking are Craig, Dalton, Lazenby. As much as I don't care for Moore's portrayal, I put him ahead of Brosnan.

    As for the generational divide, I suspect a lot of that has to do with differences in technology and attitudes that don't reflect current thinking. The offenses many find in those early films I don't share. It may be convenient for some to offer that as proof of some sort of generational divide, but it most assuredly is not.









  • edited May 18 Posts: 886
    As a Bond fan I learned one thing. If you can forgive the Tarzan yell you can forgive everything.

    So yes, I think everything is quite subjective and the generational thing matters.

  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,864
    It may be convenient for some to offer that as proof of some sort of generational divide, but it most assuredly is not.

    Right. It comes down to taste.

    For most of my life I thought Connery was the best, and I’m thinking I must be a couple of decades younger than you.

    But now I think Craig is the best, IMO— and he’s certainly not the first Bond I was exposed to, nor the first era I’ve lived through.

    It’s about taste and connecting to the actor and his portrayal.

    That’s the issue with thinking criticisms of the early films come down to a generational divide. I think posters were making valid point on DN and TB, although I personally love both films.

    Two things can be true at the same time: I can admire these films, but also agree that there are pacing issues and dated approaches to visual storytelling, and yes, problems with the actual scripts (as we could do on all 25 films)…

    I can be less enthused about Brosnan and his films, but that doesn’t and shouldn’t invalidate the fans of his era, either. I’m not wrong in my opinion, and neither are they.They love those films, and as a fan of the series I’m happy for them.

    There seems to be a slight war, though, between some posters of a certain vintage, firing salvos at perceived younger fans. That’s not right.
  • edited May 18 Posts: 1,750
    peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    These post are also a reminder of the generational divides within
    Bond fandom.

    Yeah, pretty much.

    But now GE looks like an old Roger Moore movie, so I don't know what the next generation of fans will think.

    I don't understand what this means? I don't know how comments made show a generational divide? Just because there is some criticism of the earlier films?

    When I look at my top ten, four slots go to Connery, one to Lazenby, one to Dalton, and four to Craig.

    Do my choices show this so-called "generational divide"?. If so, how?

    Maybe because you like Craig.

    In my top ten, fifty percent goes to the films of the 60s.
    Forty percent goes to Craig.
    One to a film from the 80s.

    Try answering that again, Deke. Yes, I like Craig.

    But it's obvious that I admire the films from the 60s, and one from the 80s.

    I was asking if this showed a generational divide, especially considering I was born and grew up in the Moore era.

    Your answer was, as usual, puzzling.

    Your tastes seem very consistent. Craig=Connery+Dalton+Lazenby.


    Thanks, Deke.

    My question is, does this show a generation divide?

    Someone stated that the posts made criticizing Dr No and TB revealed a generational divide. I'm not exactly sure what that means.

    So taking my own top ten, I was asking, as a person who was born and who grew up during the Moore (and Dalton era), does this show a generational divide? And if so, how?

    Hi Peter, That was me. My comment was actually based on some people preferring AVTAK and DAF over DN. From a filmmaker's perspective it seemed to me that a "generational divide" could explain that. Of course I could be wrong. How would you rate DN against AVTAK in their story arcs, pacing and production values?
  • edited May 18 Posts: 2,116
    Personally I don’t think there is a Bond actor who’s “objectively” the best. Well maybe there is just one…

    casinoroyale1954.jpg?w=840
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,864
    delfloria wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    These post are also a reminder of the generational divides within
    Bond fandom.

    Yeah, pretty much.

    But now GE looks like an old Roger Moore movie, so I don't know what the next generation of fans will think.

    I don't understand what this means? I don't know how comments made show a generational divide? Just because there is some criticism of the earlier films?

    When I look at my top ten, four slots go to Connery, one to Lazenby, one to Dalton, and four to Craig.

    Do my choices show this so-called "generational divide"?. If so, how?

    Maybe because you like Craig.

    In my top ten, fifty percent goes to the films of the 60s.
    Forty percent goes to Craig.
    One to a film from the 80s.

    Try answering that again, Deke. Yes, I like Craig.

    But it's obvious that I admire the films from the 60s, and one from the 80s.

    I was asking if this showed a generational divide, especially considering I was born and grew up in the Moore era.

    Your answer was, as usual, puzzling.

    Your tastes seem very consistent. Craig=Connery+Dalton+Lazenby.


    Thanks, Deke.

    My question is, does this show a generation divide?

    Someone stated that the posts made criticizing Dr No and TB revealed a generational divide. I'm not exactly sure what that means.

    So taking my own top ten, I was asking, as a person who was born and who grew up during the Moore (and Dalton era), does this show a generational divide? And if so, how?

    Hi Peter, That was me. My comment was actually based on some people preferring AVTAK and DAF over DN. From a filmmaker's perspective it seemed to me that a "generational divide" could explain that. Of course I could be wrong. How would you rate DN against AVTAK in their story arcs, pacing and production values?

    @delfloria ,for me, DN is a tight, well-made, small budget film that is far better than DAF and AVTAK.

    But I’m not sure if some liking DAF and AVTAK over DN is a generational thing, though— IMO.

    I dunno, maybe some liked the sleazy, lounge lizardy’ness of DAF, or the GF callbacks in AVTAK? I think it's personal tastes rather than generational, if I was to guess.

    And some of the criticisms attached to DN, like it feels like a 50s film, I get. I think that too. Norman’s melodramatic score really lends itself more to a film from the previous decade. But I also love DN for this tone as well.

    If any of that makes sense?…..
  • Posts: 1,750
    peter wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    delfloria wrote: »
    These post are also a reminder of the generational divides within
    Bond fandom.

    Yeah, pretty much.

    But now GE looks like an old Roger Moore movie, so I don't know what the next generation of fans will think.

    I don't understand what this means? I don't know how comments made show a generational divide? Just because there is some criticism of the earlier films?

    When I look at my top ten, four slots go to Connery, one to Lazenby, one to Dalton, and four to Craig.

    Do my choices show this so-called "generational divide"?. If so, how?

    Maybe because you like Craig.

    In my top ten, fifty percent goes to the films of the 60s.
    Forty percent goes to Craig.
    One to a film from the 80s.

    Try answering that again, Deke. Yes, I like Craig.

    But it's obvious that I admire the films from the 60s, and one from the 80s.

    I was asking if this showed a generational divide, especially considering I was born and grew up in the Moore era.

    Your answer was, as usual, puzzling.

    Your tastes seem very consistent. Craig=Connery+Dalton+Lazenby.


    Thanks, Deke.

    My question is, does this show a generation divide?

    Someone stated that the posts made criticizing Dr No and TB revealed a generational divide. I'm not exactly sure what that means.

    So taking my own top ten, I was asking, as a person who was born and who grew up during the Moore (and Dalton era), does this show a generational divide? And if so, how?

    Hi Peter, That was me. My comment was actually based on some people preferring AVTAK and DAF over DN. From a filmmaker's perspective it seemed to me that a "generational divide" could explain that. Of course I could be wrong. How would you rate DN against AVTAK in their story arcs, pacing and production values?

    @delfloria ,for me, DN is a tight, well-made, small budget film that is far better than DAF and AVTAK.

    But I’m not sure if some liking DAF and AVTAK over DN is a generational thing, though— IMO.

    I dunno, maybe some liked the sleazy, lounge lizardy’ness of DAF, or the GF callbacks in AVTAK? I think it's personal tastes rather than generational, if I was to guess.

    And some of the criticisms attached to DN, like it feels like a 50s film, I get. I think that too. Norman’s melodramatic score really lends itself more to a film from the previous decade. But I also love DN for this tone as well.

    If any of that makes sense?…..

    It all makes sense to me. I'll add that the original novels are of their time as well. '50s detective novels with a splash of innovative outlandishness. Like the DN film.
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